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Company pool car civil liberties? - daveyK_UK
An interesting conundrum.

A friends son works for a utilities company and has use of a pool car which he is the main user and has permission to take home (but no personal use) as he does on call for the company.

The company this week changed the vehicles tracker for a newer model which amongst other things includes a camera inside the car with a microphone recording the driver.

The argument from the company is it lowers their insurance as it will identify if a driver is distracted or ‘acting illegally’ (that’s what it states in the employee email bulletin he showed me). It also helps them ‘monitor and correct including the disciplinary of drivers’.

It was installed Wednesday afternoon.

Thursday morning he handed in the keys and refused to drive the vehicle citing his civil liberties in particular his right to privacy as the company driver document makes mention staff are allowed to use the vehicles information system for personal phones to make and receive calls handsfree and stream music in line with the law around handheld devices.
He also made the valid point, you employed me as an electrical engineer not a driver.

Where does he stand?

Personally I can see both arguments.

I don’t want to be recorded VS your on paid time in our vehicle


Edited by daveyK_UK on 19/03/2021 at 18:54

Company pool car civil liberties? - Bromptonaut

Has he looked at GDPR or looked at the website of/spoken to the office of Information Commissioner?

Company pool car civil liberties? - _

Companies are allowed to monitor employees in their company vehicles in their working time.

Edited by _ORB_ on 20/03/2021 at 07:58

Company pool car civil liberties? - Manatee

There's a lot of it about. A chap came from UK Power Networks recently to put me a new power supply in. He showed me all the cameras on his vehicle. In the cab, in the load area, looking back from each door mirror, and one on the back recording his activity when he was load and unloading his mini digger. They all record, all the time.

A Jewson lorry delivered some stuff the other day and I remarked that one of my neighbours thought a Jewson lorry on an earlier delivery had demolished his little brick wall while manoeuvring. It had been delivering some steel mesh, and this chap said that was him too. He also said he hadn't done it, and if he had he would have fessed up because it would have been recorded. He then showed me his cameras!

He told me that he had recently been accused of reversing into a car and damaging it. He said the car had driven into the lorry. When the driver sent the claim into Jewsons, they interrogated the telematics which showed he had not even engaged reverse.

I don't think it would worry me unduly, although I'd be careful what I said and it might inhibit my in-car singing somewhat.

Company pool car civil liberties? - daveyK_UK
I think most of us can agree, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the employer, it’s a sad indictment of UK society in 2021.

Company pool car civil liberties? - Middleman

I think he would get nowhere at all if he took his argument to any form of tribunal.

It is a company car; they are entitled to take steps to protect it from misuse and to protect themselves from any legal action which might arise from its use. His “right to privacy” is not infringed. If he wants to do anything privately all he has to do is step out of the vehicle to do it. It’s no different to his activities being observed in his place of work.

Company pool car civil liberties? - J0HNuk

My concern would be, which activities do they deem detrimental to my driving? Singing? Shouting/screaming (in my case, same thing)? Nose picking? Scratching? The radio on loud? How loud? A specific type of music? Listening to audio books? Am I concentrating if listening to 50 Shades?

Company pool car civil liberties? - Andrew-T
I think most of us can agree, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the employer, it’s a sad indictment of UK society in 2021.

I don't think it's a particularly new thing, just part of a gradual reversal of the 'innocent until proved guilty' presumption. About 40 years ago I was asked to create a simple travelling-salesman program to minimise delivery routes for tanker drivers (which satnavs now do much better). The real purpose was to find out how many unauthorised miles were being added.

But there have been tachometers for a very long time, then dashcams. The fundamental problem is that some people can't be trusted, so it isn't surprising when measures are taken to limit that.

Company pool car civil liberties? - Bromptonaut

They can do it but there are regulatory processes that have to be complied with:

www.gov.uk/data-protection-your-business/using-cctv

ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protect.../

Company pool car civil liberties? - primus 1

In my last job as a service engineer, the company had cameras installed in all new vans, these were dash cams but the early ones had inward facing cameras as well, the drivers were told they could disconnect or turn camera away, the newer ones didn’t have an internal camera, we were told the microphone was disconnected and only the fleet manager had access to any footage, but had to ask the drivers permission first, some of the guys used their vans privately, so I guess this was why, one lad did have an accident, he was waiting at traffic lights, as soon as they turned green he moved off, a lorry had jumped the red light and took his front bumper off, and tried to blame him, the footage proved otherwise, I’m not sure how a company would stand if it could be proven they were accessing the camera and microphone when the vehicle was being used privately, without the drivers permission after all you could be having a private conversation with your partner which is being listened to,

Company pool car civil liberties? - _

This is why.

A34 crash.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2016/oct/31/lorr...o

Company pool car civil liberties? - skidpan

At my last company I had access to pool vehicles when needed and the rules were simple, no private mileage (except travel to and from work) without prior agreement. If you asked it was never refused.

If there had been cameras in them or tracking devices it would not have bothered me one bit, I was doing my job and getting paid.

On the other hand if I had wished to use the van for illicit purposes it would have cramped my style a bit if all and sundry knew what was happening.

If you have nothing to hide what is the issue?

Company pool car civil liberties? - concrete

I can see why it annoys people that they are being monitored. A company vehicle is a designated place of work and as such is liable to supervision or monitoring by whatever means the company choose. We had this argument about company vans when the smoking ban was introduced. Being a place of work smoking was banned in all company vehicles at all times. Some disagreed and were invited to find employment elsewhere if they chose not to accept the rule. It is always easy to forget you are being monitored and say or do something you wish wasn't witnessed by management, however the monitoring is recorded and not continually monitored by a person so the chances of anything untoward coming out are slim. The only reason to access the recording was in case of an accident or dispute over routes or timings, otherwise the recordings were filed away, mostly never to be seen again.

There was one amusing incident when an employee forgot entirely about the camera and he and his girlfriend had a romantic interlude so to speak. It came to light when the vehicle was reported for speeding soon afterwards. He was reprimanded but no one could get mad because they were laughing that much!!

Cheers Concrete

Company pool car civil liberties? - Zippy123

My employer insists the lease company removes all tracking and telematics from vehicles before they are delivered.

They don't want clients or key company locations pinpointed.

Company pool car civil liberties? - Sofa Spud

Their company, their car, their rules.

Company pool car civil liberties? - daveyK_UK

At my last company I had access to pool vehicles when needed and the rules were simple, no private mileage (except travel to and from work) without prior agreement. If you asked it was never refused.

If there had been cameras in them or tracking devices it would not have bothered me one bit, I was doing my job and getting paid.

On the other hand if I had wished to use the van for illicit purposes it would have cramped my style a bit if all and sundry knew what was happening.

If you have nothing to hide what is the issue?

I don’t think it’s as simple as ‘if there is nothing to hide what is the issue?’ I guess there is a balance between company rights and an employees right to privacy. I was thinking about if from my own point of view when I used to run a company with numerous staff vehicles. I fully understand road camera in vehicles , possibly a discreet one out the rear window as well. However, I don’t get why a microphone is required inside the vehicle, to me that seems a step to far. Big brother is watching and listening! I think privacy is a fundamental right, your employer does not have a right to know what you do or say during your work activity - this sort of monitoring has always been problematic as both it can be abused (and often is) and is part of a slippery slope of surveillance. I don’t think privacy should be traded away for a cheap argument about legal compliance; especially when the chap in question can spend up to 8 working hours a day driving around Norfolk and East Mids. I thought about if I trusted my staff? I interviews most of them, I offered them a job, I gave the use of the company vehicle, credit cards, premises, etc I trusted them. Sadly it seems trust is a shrinking commodity. As always with these things, I think there is a balance to be struck.
Company pool car civil liberties? - Andrew-T

<< I offered them a job, I gave the use of the company vehicle, credit cards, premises, etc I trusted them. Sadly it seems trust is a shrinking commodity. As always with these things, I think there is a balance to be struck. >>

I think you have the balance about right, Davey. Trust is a two-way thing. Some employees who continually feel their employer is spying on them will not develop loyalty to him/her.

But I'm not sure trust is a shrinking commodity - I think the proportion of humans with a low moral threshold is pretty constant. But offering jobs with full-time surveillance will not help IMHO.

Company pool car civil liberties? - expat

Just before I retired our organisation put telematics in all our pool cars. The reason given was that they needed to know where they were in case someone had an accident in a remote area. The next thing was that managers started getting monthly reports showing who had been speeding and where. The managers were expected to discipline the drivers for this. One manager commented to me that she didn't care if they were speeding. It was up to the police to enforce that. Her concern was whether people were doing their work ok.

Company pool car civil liberties? - primus 1

Just before I retired our organisation put telematics in all our pool cars. The reason given was that they needed to know where they were in case someone had an accident in a remote area. The next thing was that managers started getting monthly reports showing who had been speeding and where. The managers were expected to discipline the drivers for this. One manager commented to me that she didn't care if they were speeding. It was up to the police to enforce that. Her concern was whether people were doing their work ok.

Yes we had this, they also monitored your driving, ie harsh cornering/braking, none of us had any problems with a camera being used as a dashcam even judging how you drove, the problem arose with the microphone, as I said, some used it privately so in theory,their conversations could be listed to at anytime the vehicle was in use, afaik, there was no parking mode as it switched off five minutes after the ignition was off.

Company pool car civil liberties? - Terry W

From the other end of the telescope (so to speak) - any company using camera as evidence to dismiss or reprimand drivers would be open to all kinds of employment tribunal claims (unfair or constructive dismissal) unless the evidence was unambiguos and compelling.

Making personal comments about managers etc may not do your career a lot of good - but equally you would probably have the good sense not to do so if you were both in the same room either!

Company pool car civil liberties? - Andrew-T

<< afaik, there was no parking mode as it switched off five minutes after the ignition was off. >>

So it was no use at all if the vehicle was stolen ?

Company pool car civil liberties? - daveyK_UK
I think he was referring to the microphone which switched off after 5 minutes of turning the engine off


The more you think about the ‘if you have got nothing to hide what’s the issue?’ statement, the more you realise it’s a completely nonsensical argument.




Company pool car civil liberties? - primus 1

<< afaik, there was no parking mode as it switched off five minutes after the ignition was off. >>

So it was no use at all if the vehicle was stolen ?

No, if the vehicle was stolen, the on board tracker would activate and should be able to be traced, the camera went off after 5 minutes of the ignition off,

Edited by primus 1 on 21/03/2021 at 14:28

Company pool car civil liberties? - Andrew-T

<< afaik, there was no parking mode as it switched off five minutes after the ignition was off. >>

So it was no use at all if the vehicle was stolen ?

No, if the vehicle was stolen, the on board tracker would activate and should be able to be traced, the camera went off after 5 minutes of the ignition off,

Yes, but just imagine what might be done with that audio + video evidence - but I guess the camera starts up again ?

Company pool car civil liberties? - Bilboman

To all those happily acquiescing in a major invasion of privacy and evident lack of trust and respect on the part of security-obsessed and somewhat paranoid employers, I would like to ask the following:
Would you be happy for an employee of the company (possibly someone you don't know) to be sitting in the car, beside or behind you, with a camcorder, recording every minute of your journey, and then taking the recorded evidence to store it "somewhere" for a "certain" length of time, and only showing it to "people who need to see it", confident that nothing on that recording will ever resurface in a legal (or illegal) context, showing your face and bodily movements and revealing your voice, possibly many years from now.
What about the same level of surveillance in the workplace? Are we all okay about every single conversation, every single tic, gesture, cough, sneeze or belch being captured digitally and retained for evermore?
If so, then fine, let's go for it!

Company pool car civil liberties? - Middleman

Are we all okay about every single conversation, every single tic, gesture, cough, sneeze or belch being captured digitally and retained for evermore?

What makes you believe such material would be "retained for evermore"? Under DP legislation it must only be retained for as long as is reasonably necessary.

Company pool car civil liberties? - Bilboman

(I meant to say "potentially retained for evermore".) There is a huge issue of trust involved in recording and storage of personal data, and with the best will in the world, mistakes can happen, systems can be hacked and files can end up where they shouldn't. I was made redundant from a management post in 2016 just as the company was beginning to gather and use data from phone and tollbooth transponder details, as well as phoning clients to check whether sales visits had in fact been made. None of this was done with consent or negotiation or any prior warning, which understandably caused ill feeling.
I always find it curious that attitudes to surveillance are so different from one country to another. Countries with a history of invasion, dictatorship or civil war see it as an oppressive measure of a creeping totalitarianism, yet in those same countries there is little opposiiton to ID cards. Britain is the other way round!

Company pool car civil liberties? - Andrew-T

I presume the thinking is that if everyone behaved 'in private' exactly as they would 'in public' transgression would cease - and there would be no need for surveillance. Sadly we all know human nature is different, more so in some than in others.

Company pool car civil liberties? - concrete

I have had to explore CCTV footage for clues to incidents on site. Believe me it is the most boring, banal way to spend an unproductive few hours ever invented. If anyone wants to follow me around with a camera and record my antics then crack on. When looking for specific information on footage it requires some level of concentration and somebody swearing or f***ing does not really come into the equation. We kept vehicle camera footage for 1 year and site footage until 1 year after hand over. It was deleted after that. No use to man nor beast.

Cheers Concrete

Company pool car civil liberties? - primus 1

To all those happily acquiescing in a major invasion of privacy and evident lack of trust and respect on the part of security-obsessed and somewhat paranoid employers, I would like to ask the following:
Would you be happy for an employee of the company (possibly someone you don't know) to be sitting in the car, beside or behind you, with a camcorder, recording every minute of your journey, and then taking the recorded evidence to store it "somewhere" for a "certain" length of time, and only showing it to "people who need to see it", confident that nothing on that recording will ever resurface in a legal (or illegal) context, showing your face and bodily movements and revealing your voice, possibly many years from now.
What about the same level of surveillance in the workplace? Are we all okay about every single conversation, every single tic, gesture, cough, sneeze or belch being captured digitally and retained for evermore?
If so, then fine, let's go for it!

I see a tv programme in the making...??

Company pool car civil liberties? - Rerepo

Its the lefties and union brigade who stir up this civil liberties. If you do your job diligently and don't abuse your employer's trust then you have nothing to worry about. I'm retired now but I ran my own company for over 25 years. Ended up with 16 employees. We had four cameras in the open plan office, arranged so that all computer displays were visible. When you haul someone into your office and show them a recording where they are spending an hour of company time on eBay and holiday websites there is no argument. They pack their stuff and then out onto the street!

Company pool car civil liberties? - daveyK_UK
I found if you don’t trust people you don’t get employee loyalty

If you don’t trust them and they are loyal, they are not worth having

Company pool car civil liberties? - _

I saw too many cases of people in the dealerships I worked in fiddling, nicking, etc, wish we had had video and microphones a few years back.

Company pool car civil liberties? - daveyK_UK
Update -

A few drivers joined in protest and by 11am a meeting was hastily arranged where the company apologised for not consulting staff and had the tracker company return at the weekend to turn off the in vehicle cameras and microphones within the pool cars and pick ups.
The company will now look at the value of the in vehicle camera and microphone and committed to consult with staff

Looks like a good compromise for all concerned, he is happy they have come to their senses.


It’s amazing what you can achieve when you talk