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getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

DT motoring today starts off with "climate crisis" and "harmful" carbon dioxide and launches into yet another paean for electric cars.

No mention of the appalling environmental and human cost of their production - African children and Chinese slaves digging the necessary material out of open cast mines.

How the committee that came up with the 2030 deadline was packed with climate zealots

Or of China building hundreds of new coal fired power plants across the world

Or of how these electric cars are out of almost everyone's budget

Or of how many 1000s of jobs will be lost

Or what happens if you live in a tower block and you need to charge your car

Or when a motorway full of cars with no charge comes to a standstill

This is off the top of my head, feel free to add the rest

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bromptonaut

Not keen then?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.

So-called climate change and its heavy propaganda is socialism through the back door. They will tax us to oblivion to fund their own agenda and will ban things they don't think we should be allowed to own. I will not be voting for Boris ever again unless he drops this rubbish especially the move to electric cars. My car is averaging 18mpg and that is my freedom of choice, or at least it should be. Since when did Greta take over no.10, or is it Carrie..

As much as I hate the forcing people to change to electric, arguments about the infastructure only work in the short term. I am sure people said similar about petrol stations at one point.

But my main gripe is them FORCING people into change, be that with outright ban on sales, or taxation, congestion charges etc. I mean sure I will tolerate the mainstream media including the one we all pay for ramming it down our throats that we will need to hop on to noahs ark if we don't buy quinoa substitute beef, but it should only be pursuasion. If they have to force us they have already lost the argument. Big difference between us and America, or better example Europe and America.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

I speak to James Ruppert from Autocar sometimes. He has a petition to reverse the crazy 2030 target petition.parliament.uk/petitions/556842

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.
Signed!!! Thank you!
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

That the climate is changing is boyond reasonable doubt. Whether it matters or humanity should just adapt (if it can) to whatever the climate becomes is a different matter.

It is also beyond reasonable doubt that ICE pollutes at the point of use, and in towns and cities makes the environment less pleasant, and probably causes some early deaths.

Energy is consumed when vehicles move whether EV or ICE. If electricity generation is based upon carbon fuels (gas, coal) there is little difference to climate change, it only changes where emissions are emitted.

The big question is - can green energy sources supplant carbon based, and over what timescales. Mandating EV only post 2030 means that transition to green energy needs to be complete by ~2040 as ICEs purchased before the 2030 deadline will still be on the road.

Arguments based upon personal freedom and rights are completely flawed. Laws deny freedom to individuals to protect the rights of society as a whole for very sound reasons.

We rightly criminalise and punish murderers, rapists, paedophiles, thieves, at one extreme. At the other, littering, playing music too loud, parking in the wrong place are also punishable - although one would hope with a smaller sentence!

That a society for generally good reasons wishes to constrain cetain individual actions and behaviours is completely sound. Outlawing ICEs is no more an unacceptable challenge to your personal freedom than stopping you defecating in your neighbours garden.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

If they have to force us they have already lost the argument. Big difference between us and America, or better example Europe and America.

America actually did force everyone into lower emission cars way back in the 70's, in an effort to combat the air pollution. Hence an 8.2 litre Caddy, which before this would have been packing 400hp or so, was strangled back to under 200hp. And the awful Pinto based Mustang of the period was making something like 90hp from it's 5.0 V8.

Also, I believe California is planning to ban anything other than zero emissions cars from 2035.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

You could just stop reading the DT motoring section........!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

If they have to force us they have already lost the argument. Big difference between us and America, or better example Europe and America.

America actually did force everyone into lower emission cars way back in the 70's, in an effort to combat the air pollution. Hence an 8.2 litre Caddy, which before this would have been packing 400hp or so, was strangled back to under 200hp. And the awful Pinto based Mustang of the period was making something like 90hp from it's 5.0 V8.

Also, I believe California is planning to ban anything other than zero emissions cars from 2035.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

You could just stop reading the DT motoring section........!

I get it free from Booths supermarket every Saturday

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.
Sorry BBD I clicked post before finishing that. Meant to go on to make a broader point on the difference between Europe and America is Europeans tend to think the government has given them their freedoms. In USA, they tend to think they are born free and the government takes it away. I am aware of the smog regulations, snd disagree with those too. Fortunately Americans have found a way around it all and Ford have released an engine called Godzilla which is a 7.3 petrol v8
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow
Fortunately Americans have found a way around it all and Ford have released an engine called Godzilla which is a 7.3 petrol v8

Fortunately for dinosaurs? Oil companies? Ford? Americans?

But perhaps not so fortunate for the rest of us.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.

Yes, all of those! Brilliant engine, proper old school torquey detuned big block from what i've read.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.
Signed!!! Thank you!

Me too!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt
Signed!!! Thank you!

So have I.......

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Avant

Terry and Metropolis are both right: we all need to make an effort, but forcing people to take action isn't usually the best way of achieving it. I'm happy to do my bit by buying an electric car but I want that still to be my choice.

Railway electrification, trams and hybrid buses are all steps in the right direction, although I can't see a substitute for diesel as a fuel for long-distance lorries any time soon. Vans - Transit-size and smaller - need to be the next target as there are far more of these in city centres than there are big lorries.

Funny to think that Harrods grasped that point in 1939 in London. Their fleet of electric delivery vans lasted a long time, and I think they're re-introducing a modern equivalent.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

I'd be happy to drive an electric van for my work were it feasible. But I don't have off street parking and there are a grand total of two fast chargers in town, plus about another four medium speed(?) ones.

In terms of budget, I could get an early Kangoo for around £5k, but while its range would be fine most of the time, there are 4 days in my monthly round where it would be touch and go in the summer and a no no in the winter!. Plus, most Kangoo's don't have fast charging capability, so circa 12 hours on a 3 pin plug (with the cable across the pavement).

A new Nissan eNV200 would certainly have the range, and the payments could (haven't looked into the figures fully) easily work out cheaper than my current overall running costs, but that still leaves the potential problem of charging it up.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

If electric does take off in a big way it will mean more and more fields full of solar arrays and wind farms which will take up room we really need for housing, so IMO more Nuclear should be built to take the place of them

Or concentrate on Hydrogen which appears to be coming on well with Toyota Honda and Hyundai, much better range than all electric and even green Hydrogen being researched and being produced in some countries

Large lorries will benefit from Hydrogen as they wont need a trailer full on batteries to pull the load which will have decreased with all electric due to weight restrictions and the danger of accidents

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

If electric does take off in a big way it will mean more and more fields full of solar arrays and wind farms which will take up room we really need for housing, so IMO more Nuclear should be built to take the place of them.

We are edging towards the excess-population question. I don't like the idea of huge solar arrays either, but those found in parts of Europe are vast by comparison with ours. But neither do I like the idea of steadily eating into green belt with big housing estates, with all their associated problems of extra traffic on inadequate roads. Countryside is needed to feed (and entertain) people rather than be covered with swarms of houses - and worse, enormous hangars mostly used to store huge amounts of imported stuff for distribution.

Everyone assumes we can just go on getting our food from somewhere else. Foreign of course, it's more interesting.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bromptonaut

If electric does take off in a big way it will mean more and more fields full of solar arrays and wind farms which will take up room we really need for housing.

Is there a great deal of overlap between land suitable for wind and that needed for housing? Even solar arrays are usually in places where building houses would provoke a revolution.

There are certainly some wildernesses, Barvas Moor on the Isle of Lewis springs to mind where proposed windfarms should be discouraged but a lot og the mega watt developments are off shore.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - sammy1

Or of how these electric cars are out of almost everyone's budget

I just picked this one but agree with the others. The prices are far to high for most to consider and I think the prices of ICE cars are being engineered to meet the EV prices.

We have been talking this subject for a number of years now and I do not see any great movement in the charging infrastructure, it is almost as if gov are waiting for something else to come along. I have seen but one electric transit size van operating in my area.

If you read about the mining of the "rare" minerals that are needed for the batteries it seems morally wrong but never stops anything driving the human race. Apparently it takes twice the energy to make an equivalent EV.

On balance my next car would be EV but STILL way way a way from being a sensible purchase.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.

I feel bad about my 2005 VW diesel van's emissions, particularly noticeable on start up, but know if I part with it the emissions it puts out are likely to be greater, given I cover only about 3,800 miles a year.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud

Let's face it, the biggest thing that petrolheads and boy racers fear from electric cars is that they don't make a brrrm-brrrm noise. And yet the motor industry has been striving since the very beginning to make most cars as quiet and smooth as possible and electric cars do this without even trying. Also I suppose petrolheads will miss changing gear but the motor industry is moving towards automatics anyway - even the new Land Rover Defender comes with automatic as standard.

All the usual arguments about electric cars might have been true 10 years ago but now the only ones that still stand are high purchase price and limited access to rapid charging, but both these situations are improving.

Just imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

As we move towards a renewable and clean electricity, electric cars will be virtually pollution free, apart from particulates from tyres as they wear.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 30/01/2021 at 14:25

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.

Yes SS, they're sterile, sounding too much the same as each other.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud

Yes SS, they're sterile, sounding too much the same as each other.

My mountain bike doesn't make any noise, apart from a few rattles and the click of the chain and maybe a slight hum from the tyres on tarmac. But that doesn't stop me enjoying riding it .

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Trilogy.

My mountain bike doesn't make any noise, apart from a few rattles and the click of the chain and maybe a slight hum from the tyres on tarmac. But that doesn't stop me enjoying riding it .

Comparing a bike that's never made a noise with a car, has no validity.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

Let's face it, the biggest thing that petrolheads and boy racers fear from electric cars is that they don't make a brrrm-brrrm noise. And yet the motor industry has been striving since the very beginning to make most cars as quiet and smooth as possible and electric cars do this without even trying. Also I suppose petrolheads will miss changing gear but the motor industry is moving towards automatics anyway - even the new Land Rover Defender comes with automatic as standard.

All the usual arguments about electric cars might have been true 10 years ago but now the only ones that still stand are high purchase price and limited access to rapid charging, but both these situations are improving.

Just imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

As we move towards a renewable and clean electricity, electric cars will be virtually pollution free, apart from particulates from tyres as they wear.

Its going to take a few years to get fully renewable electricity and the ugly wind farms will get more to cope, also fields full of solar arrays which are not that great to look at, unless you like scenery like that.

batteries are worse for the environment yet we want more and we still do not know if it will make a difference, everyone goes on about the price of electric cars but it seems not many are concerned about battery production and mining

there must be some concern over all EVs for the Toyota boss to talk about it in the way he has done. but maybe no one is listening which appears to be the case?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - sammy1

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

The way its going with battery tech you could fill a battery with liquid already charged, the old is removed within seconds and refilled in seconds just like filling your tank, OK a few minutes but you get the idea....if it comes off as hoped!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

The way its going with battery tech you could fill a battery with liquid already charged, the old is removed within seconds and refilled in seconds just like filling your tank, OK a few minutes but you get the idea....if it comes off as hoped!

Are you doing this in your shed?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

ust imagine in the early days of petrol cars, when there was no infrastructure for them and you had to get your 'motor spirit' from the chemist'shop.

At least then people would carry their fuel around in a jerry can! Try carrying around a spare 750kg battery!!

The way its going with battery tech you could fill a battery with liquid already charged, the old is removed within seconds and refilled in seconds just like filling your tank, OK a few minutes but you get the idea....if it comes off as hoped!

Are you doing this in your shed?

lol, a university, is, according to you tube doing research into it, like so many others, to find a quicker way of charging EVs, apparently it is being tried out on lower voltage batteries which they reckon are having limit success.

IMO, Hydrogen will get more popular gradually as the tech improves, as a few companies are now starting to experiment with HGVs and Vans abroad. some I gather are here in UK but don`t know much about it at the moment, info on that is rather vague to say the least

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - John F

also fields full of solar arrays which are not that great to look at, unless you like scenery like that.

It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. I live in Northants which probably has enough shed roof acreage to provide power for every electric car in the country. Better than wasting our prime agricultural land on solar arrays.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. >>

I'm with you 100% John. But why not include houses ? Most semis and bungalows can easily accommodate a useful array (as ours does), but I suppose a tower-block couldn't generate much per flat.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed

also fields full of solar arrays which are not that great to look at, unless you like scenery like that.

It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. I live in Northants which probably has enough shed roof acreage to provide power for every electric car in the country. Better than wasting our prime agricultural land on solar arrays.

Even an installation of 120 x 2,2 square metre panels, allowing for electrical DC /AC inverter losses has a peak output of 30.5 kw but only has an average output year round of 5 kw.

And that's in Santa Cruz California by the way!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan

I feel bad about my 2005 VW diesel van's emissions, particularly noticeable on start up, but know if I part with it the emissions it puts out are likely to be greater, given I cover only about 3,800 miles a year.

When I think back to the 1st diesel car we bought I often wonder what we were thinking. It was a Golf TDi 90 PS and on 1st start or hard acceleration the amount of dense black smoke produced was biblical. The 3rd one we bought, a Mondeo TDCi 130 PS appeared smoke free as was the Focus TDCi that followed. The last 2 had DPF's and after over 6 years both had clean exhausts which clearly proved the technology worked.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< on 1st start or hard acceleration the amount of dense black smoke produced was biblical. >>

Really, Skidpan ? Which book were you thinking of ? :-)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

Sorry to touch on the easily validated.

Your comment that charging infrastructure has seen no great movement is wrong (better described as complete rubbish)

Depratment of Transport report - charging points for EV have grown fivefold since 2015.

If you are going to make comments they would have more credibity if they were vaguely connected to reality.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Metropolis.

Increased 5 fold, what was the starting point? A 5-fold increase of 1 isn't going to mean much. If you are going to patronise (like so many of your eco brethren), at least be precise :)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - sammy1

<< It's a shame that building regs did not insist upon every warehouse, factory and supermarket roof having solar panels. >>

I have seen the sun on only about 3 days in the last 60. I cannot see the benefit of panels in winter with at best 8hrs of daylight. Large solar farms are still applying for planning but the smaller scale seems uneconomical. Didn't the gov pull the rug on subsidies. There's that word again the gov throwing tax payers money at their pet projects. Is it £3k on EV cars!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Avant

Our solar panels (through the feed-in tariff) pay for nearly all our electricity bill. You need to look at it year-on-year.

We were lucky to get ours in 2015 before the idiot government stopped the subsidies. The payback period after the initial cost is about 7 to 8 years, so no go if you don't intend to stay in a house for very long.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Our solar panels (through the feed-in tariff) pay for nearly all our electricity bill. You need to look at it year-on-year.

We were lucky to get ours in 2015 before the idiot government stopped the subsidies. The payback period after the initial cost is about 7 to 8 years, so no go if you don't intend to stay in a house for very long.

Ours likewise - it was installed in late 2011 so we are locked into the original tariff of 44p/unit payback, which with only 9 panels pays for our grid intake. In essence we bought about 10 years' grid leccy up front, after that it's free.

But the original subsidy was really to get the installation business up and running, which it did. Some went out of business or diversified soon after the tariff was halved.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

"There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone"

tinyurl.com/y32kfts3

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
I’m a big fan of EV’s, and looking forward to their increased use, but that’s a slightly misleading figure in that I’ve just filled up with diesel at one petrol station that had 16 pumps.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

"There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone"

tinyurl.com/y32kfts3

Thats a lot of wasted time if it takes 1 hour to charge a car, even 20minutes is a long time waiting when a hydrogen will charge in much less time....

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed

"There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone"

tinyurl.com/y32kfts3

Thats a lot of wasted time if it takes 1 hour to charge a car, even 20minutes is a long time waiting when a hydrogen will charge in much less time....

But you will spend a lot of time looking for an H2 filling station..........!

According to ZapMap, which provides information on the electric-car recharging and hydrogen-car refuelling points, there are only 13 hydrogen stations in the UK. Five of these are located within the M25, with others in the Southeast and Midlands.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan

Has anyone on here considered the infrastructure needed to supply all the cars, buses, lorries etc with Hydrogen. Fuel is not simply moved around in tankers, there is a huge network of underground pipelines from the refineries to the distribution depots as well as direct to airports. I have no idea if its feasible to transport Hydrogen by pipeline, if it is imagine the upset caused replicating the existing network, if its not imagine the disruption of the extra tankers on the roads.

No solution is perfect but lets stop pretending Hydrogen is the answer to all our problems because its not.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

Has anyone on here considered the infrastructure needed to supply all the cars, buses, lorries etc with Hydrogen.

Actually I have, one point made was that an HGV will have to carry almost half its weight in batteries to travel any reasonable distance, a Hydrogen tank is a lot less bulky and can triple an HGV mileage, which also means the transport company will save costs as it can take a bigger payload, which for us is cheaper goods

the infrastructure needed even if its green Hydrogen may work out eventually cheaper and as easy as electric could be, I have no objection to battery electric cars but seems a waste of space in a car, where a Hydrogen car or any vehicle would be less space taken up and more miles

we also don`t know if our system will take all cars that hit the grid, no 2 chargers and software are the same and anything where electricity is concerned is unpredictable no matter how well its installed!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

I have no idea if its feasible to transport Hydrogen by pipeline,

There used to be a hydrogen pipeline from Runcorn to Ellesmere Port (just a few miles). It was a by-product from chlorine production and was used for hardening fats to make margarine. But it was a low-pressure gas pipe (obviously). I hate to imagine the risk of a high-pressure line supplying fuel stations, which might be important for transporting any liquid amounts.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Alby Back
I'm sure I heard part of an interview on R4 a few weeks ago featuring some clever scientisty person. He was saying something about testing the feasibility of using the current gas supply pipe network to carry hydrogen. This was in respect of converting household boilers to hydrogen. But, if that could be done, then it seems possible that it could potentially also service hydrogen vehicle refuelling.

But I have no idea if it could work, or indeed if he did. Might just have been a bloke with no clue who managed to get on the radio because it sounded a bit interesting for all I know.

Seem to think ( like I say, I didn't catch the whole programme) he was something to do with a wind powered hydrogen production facility that is either proposed or maybe even underway in the South East of England somewhere.

Apologies for the utter vagueness of the above, but maybe there is a cunning plan afoot.

;-)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - kiss (keep it simple)

The supply of hydrogen in gas form is presumably possible for domestic boilers via the present pipes. For a car to store a useful amount it needs to be supplied in liquid form which will be at a much higher pressure I assume. Perhaps somebody with greater knowledge of this subject can enlighten us further.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

The supply of hydrogen in gas form is presumably possible for domestic boilers via the present pipes. For a car to store a useful amount it needs to be supplied in liquid form which will be at a much higher pressure I assume. Perhaps somebody with greater knowledge of this subject can enlighten us further.

Gases cannot be liquefied above their 'critical temperature'. As hydrogen is the smallest, lightest molecule, that temp is very low - a lot colder than liquid nitrogen - which means transporting liquid H2 requires a high-pressure low-temperature container, as would any vehicle using it as fuel (still want such a car ?). Pipelines for liquid H2 might also be problematic.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

Whenever hydrogen gets discussed, someone always starts banging on (PI) about how horribly dangerous it is, yet they see no problem with the MUCH more horribly dangerous petrol, because its been a familiar part of life for 100 years or so.

They make NAPALM with it, y'know?

That's a clue..

Skunkworks looked at this when working on a hydrogen-fuelled U2 replacement, and concluded there was no safety issue relative to existing jet kerosene.

Jet kerosene is a lot less dangerous than petrol.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
We already have hydrogen fuel stations in the UK that produce hydrogen on site, using electricity from nearby solar farms. No transportation required.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - focussed
We already have hydrogen fuel stations in the UK that produce hydrogen on site, using electricity from nearby solar farms. No transportation required.

How many of these H2 stations are there in total?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
As of February 2030, 13 in the Uk.

www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/13...n
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan
As of February 2030, 13 in the Uk. www.drivingelectric.com/your-questions-answered/13...n

And like I have pointed out before on another site if you live between Rotherham and Aberdeen there are none. 7 in the SE, 2 in South Wales and 2 in the West Midlands.

Its VHS and Betamax all over again. Betamax may have had advantages over VHS but by getting the major manufacturers on board VHS won.

Hydrogen cars may be excellent but who in their right mind will buy one at present especially when they make electric cars look cheap.

With our Skoda iV I can charge it by plugging into any existing 3 pin socket in the UK. No changes to the infrastructure are required for me to do that.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

Hydrogen cars may be excellent but who in their right mind will buy one at present especially when they make electric cars look cheap.

what has right mind got to do with it, like you I don`t know how its going to go over the next 10 years, its possible your right, its also possible it could go battery electric and Hydrogen, which in my opinion it may go, giving a choice like we have now petrol or diesel

I think Hydrogen on HGVs will win, due to mileage over weight which would be the problem on HGVs

as for cars its possible they may both be a choice which is what I would like to see, rather than battery powered wins outright, unless they reduce the battery size and increase mileage to Hydrogen capability

But its a few years away so who knows, but I wouldn`t count out Hydrogen just yet too early imo as Tech gets better it may surprise us all!

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - skidpan

I recently saw an old Top Gear (from about 2006 possibly) which in the same programme tested a Tesla (the first one that was based on a Lotus Elise) and Hydrogen Honda.

Their conclusion was simple, the Electric car has no future whatsoever since the Hydrogen car is just like an existing car but uses hydrogen as its fuel.

In those 14 years Tesla have progressed to making cars that people want and people buy that for many people actually work in the real world (they wouldn't for us since we do trips that are over 400 miles and there is no way I am prepared to spend ages looking for a working charge point then wait hours for the car to charge). Tesla have been joined by most manufacturers who now sell either plug in hybrids or full EV cars, those that haven't joined the club yet will be doing so shortly.

In those same 14 years we have seen just 2 hydrogen cars (Hyundai and Toyota) go on sale in the UK. That is probably just as well with only 13 places to refuel them.

So huge strides for electric car sales but I have yet to see one of those Hyundai or Toyota hydrogen cars. Cannot find sales figures for the UK on the web either not even on the SMMT site.

Personally I am not bothered which wins, if its a mix that is fine by me as well but Hydrogen has some serious catching up to do.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

H2 could have significant advantages - apparently 1kg H2 gives the same energy as 1 gallon of petrol. This is a distinct advantage over batteries. It may also offer much faster refuelling similar to carbon fuels.

But there are also some real downsides:

  • most H2 is made from reforming natural gas, not green
  • it can be made through simple electrolysis which is about 80% efficient - you put in more electrical energy than you get out as H2
  • to be usable in a vehicle the H2 needs to be compressed - also energy hungry

The benefits of H2 over battery as fuel for HGVs etc are clearer - range, load capacity, and avoid transporting tonnes of batteries. It is quite plausible that for heavier vehicles (over 12000 kg??) the the govt will extend the cut-off date.

For cars and small vans, I would personally put money on batteries - as a solution it is proven, albeit with room for improvement. Hydrogen is largely unproven with real issues surrounding H2 production, compression, distribution etc.

Which of the technologies wins the race is probably unimportant.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

H2 could have significant advantages - apparently 1kg H2 gives the same energy as 1 gallon of petrol. This is a distinct advantage over batteries.

That's a misleading comparison, even if it may well be true. Unless your H2 is in liquid form the 1 kilo of H2 will need a large volume as it weighs very little. Even as a liquid that kilo occupies about 14 litres = about 3 gallons.

As a plus, it adds very little weight to the vehicle - just the pressure container.

Edited by Andrew-T on 31/01/2021 at 23:25

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - corax
I think Hydrogen on HGVs will win, due to mileage over weight which would be the problem on HGVs

How will the hydrogen be stored on an HGV safely to give it effective range? As has already been noted, it has to be stored in liquid form at extreme pressure.

Presumably the engine would then have to be spark ignition. It would produce less torque for the same capacity.

Edited by corax on 31/01/2021 at 20:33

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt
I think Hydrogen on HGVs will win, due to mileage over weight which would be the problem on HGVs

How will the hydrogen be stored on an HGV safely to give it effective range? As has already been noted, it has to be stored in liquid form at extreme pressure.

Presumably the engine would then have to be spark ignition. It would produce less torque for the same capacity.

it will be stored the same way a car does, but the HGV will be fuel cell, not Diesel engine, though experiments are being done now (where they were put off years ago).

More urgent now for cleaner fuel

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< t will be stored the same way a car does, but the HGV will be fuel cell, not Diesel engine >>

Only as a compressed gas, unless you intend to carry very low-temperature equipment in the vehicle too (and I mean low, about 30°K)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
Hydrogen vehicles don’t have engines - the hydrogen is there to produce electricity to power electric motors.
A hydrogen car, van or truck is electrically powered.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt
Hydrogen vehicles don’t have engines - the hydrogen is there to produce electricity to power electric motors. A hydrogen car, van or truck is electrically powered.

There is talk of duel fuel diesels for vans and HGVs, problem is Hydrogen produced by fossil fuels causes higher rates of exhaust emissions, if produced by solar or wind electric they are very low.

experiments are just starting in this so may not come to anything.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud
Hydrogen vehicles don’t have engines - the hydrogen is there to produce electricity to power electric motors. A hydrogen car, van or truck is electrically powered.

There were experiments with using hydrogen in adapted petrol engines, as that was once seen as a possible route to clean motoring. That was years ago and now, as you say, hydrogen is seen as a fuel for electric cars, by means of a fuel cell. Fuel cell cars would also have a battery, though somewhat smaller than a pure battery EV, to take advantage of regenerative braking.

It looks as though that pure battery EV is the way the industry is going. That's what I'd bet on.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

Or of China building hundreds of new coal fired power plants across the world

Could be worse. The Chinese could be building reassuringly cheap nuclear reactors worldwide...

Oh wait...

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

Or of China building hundreds of new coal fired power plants across the world

Could be worse. The Chinese could be building reassuringly cheap nuclear reactors worldwide...

Oh wait...

Aren't they making smaller reactors that are less dangerous but as efficient as larger stations?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

I believe they have a variant/knockoff of the CANDU, which is supposed to be a lot safer than the inherently unsafe Westinghouse PWR design that forms the bulk of installed capacity worldwide. I think their main design is just a Franco-Chinese variant on that, but I might be out of date.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car.

The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I cannot see how HSE can have approved the system: put a finger on the cold bits, lose a lot of skin at best and a finger at worst.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car.

The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I cannot see how HSE can have approved the system: put a finger on the cold bits, lose a lot of skin at best and a finger at worst.

If its adequately insulated, it'll still get cold, but the rate of extra-digit heat transfer might not be sufficient to reduce finger count.

I've seen plenty of propane tanks covered in frost, yet they remain in widespread use without apparently causing a huge rate of amputation.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

Propane as a liquid is -46C. This is within human experience, particularly with wind chill added, in some artic areas and up mountains. Exposure = frosbite in minutes.

Hydrogen liquifies at -253C. Exposure means body part destroyed in seconds

The two are not remotely comparable - a bit like a comparison between a normal ice cube at -10C and a domestic oven at a high temperature of +200C.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

Propane as a liquid is -46C. This is within human experience, particularly with wind chill added, in some artic areas and up mountains. Exposure = frosbite in minutes.

Hydrogen liquifies at -253C. Exposure means body part destroyed in seconds

The two are not remotely comparable - a bit like a comparison between a normal ice cube at -10C and a domestic oven at a high temperature of +200C.

The context was surface contact with the container, not immersion in the contents.

The two are not remotely comparable - a bit like a comparison between picking up a thermos of very hot coffee, and pouring it over your groin.

All that is required for frost to form is that the surface is below 0C.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car. The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I don't believe that for a millisecond. As I have said twice, H2 is always a gas above about 30°K (that's about -240°C). Cold high-pressure gas being transferred will also frost over the delivery pipe. No less dodgy for users though.

And while propane boils at about -43°, a tank of it may well be at about ambient temperature but under several ats pressure. As gas is drawn off, the liquid cools, so the tank frosts over. It isn't necessarily at -40° or even -20°. If it WAS at -40° the gas would need to be sucked out !

Edited by Andrew-T on 01/02/2021 at 14:46

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car. The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I don't believe that for a millisecond.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaIW5CQQ3Zo

From 6.30mins...

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car. The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I don't believe that for a millisecond. >>

Oh I believe it happened. I'm just saying the hydrogen wasn't liquid. That would have been physically impossible.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100

Just been doing a bit of reading on this, and the storage pressure for cars is 700 bar, whereas trucks and buses will store it at 350 bar as they're not deemed as tight for space and can have larger, and lower pressure, tanks.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - galileo

Just been doing a bit of reading on this, and the storage pressure for cars is 700 bar, whereas trucks and buses will store it at 350 bar as they're not deemed as tight for space and can have larger, and lower pressure, tanks.

Anyone who has used scuba diver's air bottles, which are usually limited to 300 bar, will know that a sizable tank will be a heavy lump if it is big enough to give good range between fill ups.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
You’d hope that materials technology has come on a little with development to enable a lighter, but robust, tank.
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

I watched James May doing his road test of a hydrogen car.

The metalwork surrounding the hose when refilling turned white with frost - he was refilling with liquid hydrogen.

I cannot see how HSE can have approved the system: put a finger on the cold bits, lose a lot of skin at best and a finger at worst.

The metalwork surrounding the hose didn't turn white with frost as he filled up, it was already white with frost. Why?, because it was a cold and frosty day. This can be determined by the looking at May's visible breath, but also by him saying, "The slight risk on a day like today is that the nozzle freezes to the car".

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< This can be determined by the looking at May's visible breath, but also by him saying, "The slight risk on a day like today is that the nozzle freezes to the car". >>

You may not be giving him credit for remembering that when a gas expands from high pressure to lower pressure it cools the pipe carrying it. Conversely when you pump up your bike tyres the pipe warms.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

Lousy fuel though, which is probably just as well.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

Lousy fuel though, which is probably just as well.

I think you have more chance of electric cables being nicked than Hydrogen leak, also a risk of cracked cables causing shock but then we could go on, people may as well say They dont like the idea of Hydrogen,and say they would rather have massive batteries in the floor/boot

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - badbusdriver

<< This can be determined by the looking at May's visible breath, but also by him saying, "The slight risk on a day like today is that the nozzle freezes to the car". >>

You may not be giving him credit for remembering that when a gas expands from high pressure to lower pressure it cools the pipe carrying it. Conversely when you pump up your bike tyres the pipe warms.

Not at all, just pointing out that the metal on the hose doesn't turn white with frost as he is filling up, it was already white with frost...............

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

<< I think you have more chance of electric cables being nicked than Hydrogen leak, >>

It may not be difficult to construct leaktight high-pressure containers for hydrogen. Keeping them leaktight over a working life may be harder. Compare with the O2 or N2 cylinders we all know - the valves are not everlasting and may need maintenance. Hydrogen tends to like escaping, and pressures must be high to contain a useful amount. Plus an escape offers a chance of explosion.

It may not be as simple as you suggest, over the long term.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100

I'm not sure anyone has suggested it's simple. That's why Toyota's R&D budget is $18 million dollars.....per day. And they're comfortably out spent by VAG, albeit spread across more brands.

Revision - the above figures are 2015. 2019 was $21 million dollars per day.

Edited by mcb100 on 02/02/2021 at 11:36

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Revision - the above figures are 2015. 2019 was $21 million dollars per day.

Per DAY ? Are you sure ? That's about 7 billion dollars a year. Can any motor maker stand that ?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - RT

Revision - the above figures are 2015. 2019 was $21 million dollars per day.

Per DAY ? Are you sure ? That's about 7 billion dollars a year. Can any motor maker stand that ?

VW Group's R&D budget was 14.3 billion Euros for 2019, that's about 17 billion US dollars

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100

Absolutely sure, the figures are out there.

That's why I get amused and frustrated in equal measures when 'people on the internet' always seem to know better.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Absolutely sure, the figures are out there.

.... and they still get some things wrong, or rush them out too early ... :-(

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - edlithgow

A hydrogen leak is dangerous.

A petrol leak is really, really dangerous.

But we are used to petrol, so it isn't seen as a big deal.

They still make napalm with it, though.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Sofa Spud
The other issue is that hydrogen molecules are the smallest in the universe, so escape through the slightest sign of permeability.

I think helium, being an atom and not a molecule, does a bit better than that.

Lousy fuel though, which is probably just as well.

I think you have more chance of electric cables being nicked than Hydrogen leak, also a risk of cracked cables causing shock but then we could go on, people may as well say They dont like the idea of Hydrogen,and say they would rather have massive batteries in the floor/boot

Within the last few years I saw a man at the local filling station SMOKING while filling up. His vehicle was probably diesel, but evens so, smoking at a filling station - unbelievable.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

Peter Hitchens 25/4/21

The collapse of the once-free West into a conformist wasteland is grim enough by itself, for anyone who believes in free thought and assembly.

There are so many things that it is now impossible to discuss without being driven into the wilderness. Dissent on these subjects – you know what they are, though there will soon be more – is a suicide mission, which can even bring the police to your door.

And I suppose for most people this is just a nuisance on the edge of life. But the Green Dogma – which has taken over every major government on the planet, and is now pretty much accepted by all media, publishing houses and educational bodies – is different. Anyone who challenges or doubts it might as well build his own guillotine, stick his head in the hole and drop the blade on his own neck.

So I won’t do that. The kamikaze life is not for me. I’ll just say two things. The British Government’s policy on climate change doesn’t even make sense on its own terms. And it is going to affect you personally whether you have an opinion on it or not. For reasons I have never discovered, our Government is more rigid about this than almost any other. Unlike many advanced countries, we have written our carbon-reduction targets into law, making it much harder to pull out of them if things get tough.

So far, the main thing we have done is to close perfectly good coal-fired power stations. Well, you might say, so much the better for the atmosphere. But China, with vast, newly discovered coalfields in Inner Mongolia, keeps opening such stations. In fact, China’s coal-fired power generation is more than ten times bigger than Britain’s entire electricity output from all sources. It is not just China. India is also a greedy consumer of coal to make electricity. Both countries make airy promises that one day they will stop doing this, but as long as they carry on, our efforts make as much difference as trying to empty the Atlantic with a teaspoon.

It is sheer deluded vanity to think that the rest of the world looks on us as an example. Few now care what we do, let alone copy it. Our economic rivals only sn***** behind their hands at our dogged self-harm.

To continue this course, we are going to have to cut our huge consumption of gas, not just to run power stations, but in large numbers of homes. If we press on with our plans to be green, then millions of us face being told we must replace our gas boilers with costly and less efficient heat-pumps.

Ferocious insulation rules will make it harder and harder to sell older houses. As for transport, it is just going to get more expensive and less convenient. And now they want to make us change our diets too.

At the moment, in most people’s lives, this is still a small cloud no bigger than a man’s hand, far away on the horizon. But you will find as the years drag on that it will spread across the whole sky.

My guess is that it is the means by which we in the West will join the Third World, finally and irrevocably. How amusing that this should be brought about by a government that calls itself Conservative, and claims to be patriotic.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Steveieb

Very interesting.

And I got a clearer picture of the true reasons behind global warming and pollution by watching “ Seaspirocy “ on Netflix.

This documentary made by a young journalist from Kent blows apart the myths we are spun as he risks his life to bring us the truth.

Essential viewing. IMHO

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Andrew-T

Typical Hitchens fringe lunacy. We won't stop until everyone else does - a smart way to improve things. Little UK's output is insignificantly small - that is how many families view the population problem, one more won't make any difference.

Thank G*d Hitchens is not in parliament.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
‘Peter Hitchens 25/4/21’
You lost me at ‘Peter Hitchens, professional contrarian. His argument seems to be that if other countries are wreaking huge environmental damage then it’s okay for us to continue to do so.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - bananastand

I understand that some people might not like Hitchens but I always say - could you point out which bit of his argument is factually incorrect

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
He finished the piece with a guess...
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

I understand that some people might not like Hitchens but I always say - could you point out which bit of his argument is factually incorrect

I read the first paragraph

"The collapse of the once-free West into a conformist wasteland is grim enough by itself, for anyone who believes in free thought and assembly."

It is wrong. Short of using racist or intemperate language, I say what I like to whom like. Of course, IF I am offensive they will react.. so I am not offensive. Others are free to do the same. If you want to be rude about other groups ,they will complain. It's a free world.

Hitchens starts with a lie

Typical polemicist..

Solve your problem : don't read Hitchens. The Telegraph is loosing its elderly audience who are dying and trying to attract the fringe groups who think personal freedoms trump everything including public health.

Edited by madf on 25/04/2021 at 10:57

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

The average age of a DT reader is 61. Sales have slumped by 70% over the last 20 years as their audience has gone to meet their maker, assisted no doubt by the move to digital media.

They simply appeal to their remaining target demographic - white, pensioners, prosperous. They are on their last legs and their commentary largely irrelevant for most people.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

The average age of a DT reader is 61. Sales have slumped by 70% over the last 20 years as their audience has gone to meet their maker, assisted no doubt by the move to digital media.

They simply appeal to their remaining target demographic - white, pensioners, prosperous. They are on their last legs and their commentary largely irrelevant for most people.

As opposed to every other newspaper, which are making huge amounts of money and are popular with everyone. Not. EVERY traditional news outlet (including those who've switched to online only) have dropped hugely in terms of sales/profitability/active paid subcribers in that time.

It is only the pandemic that drove some people back on a temporary basis (the Telegraph has gained well over 100k subscribers over the last year, dropping about 10-15k worth of print-only subscribers).

Left-of-centre papers (and the same for their TV equivalents in the US) have lost far more, both in terms of subscribers and revenue/profits because they often rely on funding from 'investors' rather than sales of their product and advertising revenue. That's why many of them have been laying off large percentages of their workforce in recent years or going under entirely, whereas the right-of-centre ones have fared better, including in the UK where many have no required furlough payments or have paid them back.

I agree that the subscriber model for the Telegraph (and the Times) has narrowed considerably over the last decade or two, but that isn't just because they are gearing articles towards a certain older, affluent demographic (which is growing), but because their political and social viewpoint has changed considerably, slowly at first, but more rapidly in the last 5 years or so.

It is why I stopped subscribing to the Telegraph last year after doing so since around 2000, not long after the started the online version of their paper and subscribing to it was FOC. Assuming the pandemic does end this year, I think that The Telegraph and Times will find themselves shocked at how many temporary readers they have once people are busy with other things again, i.e. being back in their office for work, etc.

I noticed that after recent drops in their 'registrant' (non-subscribers who still have an account who can access a very limited amount of articles per week) count that the DT have stopped listing that number in their monthly data on readership.

They had a goal of getting back to 1M subscribers (print + online, currently at around 415k + 190k respectively) & 10M 'registrants', but the gains in the former via online subs is being offset by losses in (more expensive) print subs and the latter registrants has been going downhill since last Sept. (March figure had dropped to 6.1M after peaking at 6.76M).

I wouldn't be surprised that a similar demographic (though not politically, at least as regards the Backroom members) could be said for this website. Very few younger member join and hang around long - most just do so to get advice (which they often completely ignore) for their latest car choice and then never post again or at least until the next big decision/after some major motoring faux-pas.

Younger people tend to chat/text via their phones/apps or play video games. they don't frequent newspaper website or forums unless they are activists.

Most other newspaper websites - left and right leaning, don't cater for wide demographics either. It is why the majority of people think that the media (and why they are being increasing being called the MSM with disdain) are out of touch with the Real World.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Brit_in_Germany

Well it is self-contradictory for a start so both "facts" can't be correct.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - _

Will shortly move to "General Discussion"

ORB

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
Which means it will disappear from those of us that use the HJ app on mobile devices.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - _
Which means it will disappear from those of us that use the HJ app on mobile devices.

Didn't know that !

will leave here then.

ORB

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Xileno

I only ever use my laptop for looking at the forums so can see everything. Which forums are only available on the HJ app? We will see if the IT people can provide a solution.

Edited by Xileno on 25/04/2021 at 13:24

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
I can see Motoring and Technical, but don’t get General. I’d missed out on the joys of Covid discussions until logging on to a desktop version recently...
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Xileno

What about the Legal Matters forum?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - groaver

Odd. I get every forum on my android phone.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

Odd. I get every forum on my android phone.

I was about to ask what OS it is as I cannot find an app for HJ on Android, though don`t need one as I use either Chrome or Edge browsers just curious

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - mcb100
It’s an iOS app, had it for years but it’s no longer in the App Store. I may switch from the app to a shortcut on my Home Screen instead.
getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - groaver

Sorry, I hadn't realised it was an App.

Yes, browser on my phone too.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - galileo

Today's Telegraph has an article pointing out the impracticality and political impossibility of Boris's 'Net Zero' plans. (cost of £30,000 to £100,000 per household).

Here's a link: tinyurl.com/tkkvyasf

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

Today's Telegraph has an article pointing out the impracticality and political impossibility of Boris's 'Net Zero' plans. (cost of £30,000 to £100,000 per household).

Here's a link: tinyurl.com/tkkvyasf

From that article "Decarbonisation’s big secret is that we still have no zero-carbon technology that can balance the electricity grid when it is driven by offshore wind farms. Contrary to common belief, batteries are not even a plausible solution, and hydrogen is so absurdly expensive as to make its use unacceptable."

Based on current technology. that is correct.

But BIG large scale batteries based on vanadium - not lithium - are not only feasible but starting to be used commercially.

invinity.com/solutions/vanadium-flow-batteries/

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy
‘Peter Hitchens 25/4/21’ You lost me at ‘Peter Hitchens, professional contrarian. His argument seems to be that if other countries are wreaking huge environmental damage then it’s okay for us to continue to do so.

I believe that his argument is that when our pollution is about 1/20th (and falling in comparison anyway) compared to the US, China and India on an indifidual basis, where at least one if not two of them are using more and more fossil fuels (including coal) every year, then our contribution is miniscule in comparison, especially when the latest 'plans' will likely bankrupt us in the process.

My take on the issue is more nuanced - go with proven but affordable (i.e. that doesn't need subsidies for decades that makes certain people rich for little gain to the nation) tech and those that can be integrated into society without creating a two tier/class system based on wealth.

I still find it amazing that the poor effectively subsidises the rich to pay them to buy EVs and home chargers when 99% of them can already afford them at the full retail price. Councils should not be using taxpayer money to fund free charging stations for rich people to charge their EVs whilst simutaneously arguing for higher fuel duty on cars that poorer people use.

Boris should NOT be listening to his 'fiance' on environmental matters (or anything else that effects his job). If she wants to be heard, she should stand for parliament.

The way things are going, we'll end up like things were in the 1900s - 1920s with only rich people owning cars and everyone else stuck on slow public transport. Maybe I should practice tugging my forelock to EV owners (I'll break out my Downton Abbey boxset in readiness)? :-)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - alan1302

My take on the issue is more nuanced - go with proven but affordable (i.e. that doesn't need subsidies for decades that makes certain people rich for little gain to the nation) tech and those that can be integrated into society without creating a two tier/class system based on wealth.

So what do you suggest we do with transport and power generation?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

My take on the issue is more nuanced - go with proven but affordable (i.e. that doesn't need subsidies for decades that makes certain people rich for little gain to the nation) tech and those that can be integrated into society without creating a two tier/class system based on wealth.

So what do you suggest we do with transport and power generation?

Clean them up but in a responsible way that doesn't bankrupt the world, or as some billionairres want, everyone but them and their firms. As a fellow engineer said in a letter to the Telegraph today, the chance of us being able to do as Boris and the greenies trying to force him to go further and far quicker are zilch.

That doesn't mean we cannot make improvements that are more realistic and achieveable without the huge economic and societal impact. Unlike the nutty St Greta and the Squad from the US, the world won't be ending in 10 years. That doesn't mean that we should let the US and especially India and China produce more and more pollution from burning fossil fuels either.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - barney100

If someone wants an EV fine go ahead but I don't. My diesel is one of the cleanest ever, an EV costs more than some people's take home pay for the year.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

If someone wants an EV fine go ahead but I don't. My diesel is one of the cleanest ever, an EV costs more than some people's take home pay for the year.

To be fair so do a lot of petrol and diesel cars. Last time I looked they weren't given away free by manufactures. A mid range Focus is £25k these days.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

If someone wants an EV fine go ahead but I don't. My diesel is one of the cleanest ever, an EV costs more than some people's take home pay for the year.

To be fair so do a lot of petrol and diesel cars. Last time I looked they weren't given away free by manufactures. A mid range Focus is £25k these days.

Before the obligatory discount. I'd put good money on getting about 20-25% off that, at least for Fords, Vauxhalls, Renaults, Nissans, etc. Less for Japanese and German marques though.

Similarly sized and kitted-out EVs will cost - with grant - upwards of £35k, often considerably more. And that's when battery components'raw materials are still in relatively plentiful supply.

Wait until all the i****ic laws kick in that will force most people to choose between giving up their ICE car entirely, bankrupting themselves to buy an EV or risk buying an old EV whose batteries may give up the ghost and require a £5k - £15k pack change (which can't be afforded) at any point, with a decent possibility that no replacement parts will be either available at all or at least for months due to extra demand.

Rarely does a well-maintained ICE car suddenly 'give up' engine-wise, that requires 4 or 5 figure interventions. The problem with EVs compared to ICE vehicles is that wear and tear maintenance comes in far bigger chunks at lesser intervals than ICE cars, so it is often luck of the draw whether owning one over 5 years old is going to be cheap or very costly indeed. Much easier to predict for ICE cars - if well maintained with a documented FSH.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

I take the point but I don't agree it is easier to predict ICE cars. There is loads it is very difficult to predict. There is also lots a FSH is totally irrelevant to what may go wrong.

It is actually quite easy to check a EV car - you just check the battery capacity and condition. That is the main concern. They tend to degrade at a very steady rate, not suddenly over night.

ICE cars will not vanish over night. It will be a 20 year or more transition and in 10-15 years time a used market at all price levels will develop just as it is now.

I have my doubts about EV cars but I have no doubt there will be cheap ones about. In fact £4k will get you a perfectly decent used Leaf now. I realise that may not be everyone's cup of tea but there is a used market already and it will develop.

Edited by pd on 27/04/2021 at 13:28

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

Suggesting that EVs will be more expensive to maintain with costs coming in larger "chunks" as the vehicle ages is unsubstantiated nonsense.

EV motors are far less complex. ICE has countless bearing surfaces (big ends, camshaft(s), little ends etc) + losts of reciprocating parts - pistons, valves. By comparison the scope for wear inside an electric motor is trivial. EV still requires a differential, but probably doesn't need a clutch and gearbox with more cogs and bearings.

Both motors rely on electronics fed by sensors for management - no great difference there!

Battery packs do not suddenly fail completely. Individual cells can be replaced.

Now for a reality check - right now there is far more accumulated knowledge about ICE engineering than EV, and volumes of ICE are still much higher reducing costs of new vehicles and spare parts. There are also issues for some related to range and recharging.

Fast forward 5-10 years and ICE will be completely stalled as a technology - car companies simply will not invest in a technology rendered obselete either by legislation or customer demand.

Volumes of EV will be larger and many of the perceived engineering, recharging, battery issues resolved. Servicing the needs of S/H EVs will become routine.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

Suggesting that EVs will be more expensive to maintain with costs coming in larger "chunks" as the vehicle ages is unsubstantiated nonsense.

EV motors are far less complex. ICE has countless bearing surfaces (big ends, camshaft(s), little ends etc) + losts of reciprocating parts - pistons, valves. By comparison the scope for wear inside an electric motor is trivial. EV still requires a differential, but probably doesn't need a clutch and gearbox with more cogs and bearings.

That is proving my argument. I never said that ICE cars have overall lower costs over its lifetime, but that they are spread out more evenly, because more of them are wear and tear and less are electronics (see below).

Both motors rely on electronics fed by sensors for management - no great difference there!

Battery packs do not suddenly fail completely. Individual cells can be replaced.

Electronics often suddenly fail, batteries included. Difference is the EVs have more of them.

Now for a reality check - right now there is far more accumulated knowledge about ICE engineering than EV, and volumes of ICE are still much higher reducing costs of new vehicles and spare parts. There are also issues for some related to range and recharging.

Fast forward 5-10 years and ICE will be completely stalled as a technology - car companies simply will not invest in a technology rendered obselete either by legislation or customer demand.

Only because laws are saying so, not because they should be. That doesn't mean that those laws are correct. You still don't say where all the batteries' raw material will be sourced, given how much a vehicle needs compared to a phone or laptop.

Volumes of EV will be larger and many of the perceived engineering, recharging, battery issues resolved. Servicing the needs of S/H EVs will become routine.

See above on electronics. Despite decades of improvements, I have yet to own a TV, computer or phone that gave several weeks worth of notice that a major part was about to give up, with only desktop PCs (box, not monitors) being able to swap out parts with relative ease and not breaking the bank, but only within about 5 - 6 years of the original sale date (spares are either hiddeously expensive or no longer made).

Why will EVs be any different?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - John Boy

Interesting article on the BBC website about recycling electric car batteries:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56574779

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

My experience of modern electronics is they are very reliable:

unless they are French or German or US or Korean,

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

My experience of modern electronics is they are very reliable:

unless they are French or German or US or Korean,

I wouldn't say that Chinese designed and made stuff is that great either - it dependes on the make and price. The few Japanese designed and made electronics I still have left (including in my car) are decent in terms of longevity and reliability.

My general point was that electronics don't slowly give up for the most part, unlike most mechanical devices, which gives the operator.owner at least some visual or audible forewarning that they are about to break - sometimes months or even a year away (e.g. suspension parts or a clutch).

Electronics, on the othe hand, mostly suddenly break - you may on some get a small amount of notice, like a mechanical HDD starting to sound odd before the dreaded clunk or click-click of death, but it tends to be just a few days at most.

A more modern designed SSD storage device will essentially give no warning (rather like a light bulb) and just fail - it will likely last longer than the mechanical platter HDD, but it means for absolute safety (of data), you need two of them arranged in a RAID array or have an external backup drive that does it job every day to ensure the vital data isn't lost due to a storage drive failure. Not a cheap option. I've had HDDs fail, and I've managed to save 99% of the data because I've had time to back up the latest stuff.

With EVs, an electric motor may suddenly fail, as may any or all of the batteries. The problem is that the older the EV gets, the less chance replacements can be cheaply sourced or at all (rather like replacement parts for old computers or home AV), and the less chance any second hand car owner would be able to afford to pay that sort of money to replace said broken part(s).

At least with an ICE car, you mostly get a decent amount of forewarning of trouble with the expensive parts, especially if the car has been well-maintained over its life. With an EV, things like the batteries and motors can be tested for efficiency, but that's it - actual wear of their internals cannot really be cheacked or diagnosed (they are sealed for life units for the most part), whether directly or via indirect means, as many ICE engine-related issues can be (without taking the engine to bits).

That's why hardly anyone nowadays repairs home electronics equipment - either the whole device gets junked, becaue it's either impossible to repair, or too expensive compared to the (entire unit) replacement cost.

My old Powermax boiler was a case in point - the electronics are so scarce now that, together with certain parts that only fit that boiler that it was going to cost me nearly a third of the entire cost of fitting a new boiler (including tortuous new flue and condensate routes) to fix it, with the rest of the boiler still likely near end-of-life anyway. Add to that no local plumber is qualified (or wants) to work on them made my choice inevitable.

With EVs, I'm already hearing many reports about Tesla refusing to repair or maintain their early cars (over 10yo), leaving owners at the mercy of the local market for that, assuming (like my old boiler) they can get anyone to work on it or get quality parts at all or at a reasonable price, possibly making them obsolete/uneconomic to repair in just over a decade. My ICE car is 15yo and still going nicely indeed.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

"My ICE car is 15yo and still going nicely indeed."

Mu house boiler was installed in 1983 so it's 38 years old.

Works very well thank you.

Some parts are still available. (Sometimes new on ebay and cheap)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - RT

"My ICE car is 15yo and still going nicely indeed."

Mu house boiler was installed in 1983 so it's 38 years old.

Works very well thank you.

Some parts are still available. (Sometimes new on ebay and cheap)

Domestic gas boilers create about the same amount on NOx as road transport vehicles, about 14% of the total - but it's politically easier to ban the sales of new IC cars than ban the sales of domestic gas boilers.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - alan1302

"My ICE car is 15yo and still going nicely indeed."

Mu house boiler was installed in 1983 so it's 38 years old.

Works very well thank you.

Some parts are still available. (Sometimes new on ebay and cheap)

Domestic gas boilers create about the same amount on NOx as road transport vehicles, about 14% of the total - but it's politically easier to ban the sales of new IC cars than ban the sales of domestic gas boilers.

There is a push to change to alternative heating as well...just electric cars are further along their development

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

"My ICE car is 15yo and still going nicely indeed."

Mu house boiler was installed in 1983 so it's 38 years old.

Works very well thank you.

Some parts are still available. (Sometimes new on ebay and cheap)

Domestic gas boilers create about the same amount on NOx as road transport vehicles, about 14% of the total - but it's politically easier to ban the sales of new IC cars than ban the sales of domestic gas boilers.

There is a push to change to alternative heating as well...just electric cars are further along their development

Actually not so - air source heat pumps have been around for ages now (all air source heat pumps are are A/C units with the cooling side disabled), it's just that there wasn't any incentive to switch, plus the disincentive that still exists (similar to that for EV charging at home) for people living in flats, terraced or older housing - either:

Nowhere (physically) to put the 'outdoor units';

Too expensive or dangerous (up several meters requiring scaffolding, cherry-picker or not possible [high-rise flats]) to install, or;

As many people will face, not sufficient electrical power for their property or flat block to cope, where they cannot afford to upgrade it (or it may not be possible without a complete re-wire, again either too expensive [some may have asbestos to clear] or will need to turf all residents out to strip the place of the existing wiring, etc]);

The outdoor units of said systems are noisy (about 50dbA - imagine if every flat's system is chugging at full power in winter at the same time at 5am) - from experience, some councils won't allow them due to noise restrictions, and neighbours may well (rightly) object to the noise as well.

Similarly for ground source heat pumps - the 'slinky under the ground' units require large open spaces (useless for flats or people with small gardens) that would have to be completely dug up to install the pipework. The other system uses bore holes (flats), but is even more expensive as they need to be at least 25m deep (sometimes much more so if the thermal conductivity of the ground locally is poor), which is why 99.9% are installed when the buildings themselves are constructed, using economies of scale when doing the foundations.

One of the problems with 'alternative' technologies is that all too often, activists, politicians and the media jump on the bandwagon to change without really researching them, looking at ways of resolving/mitigating problems, etc, often because they have little to no expertise on the subject and are blinded by 'science/technology' and the sales patois (e.g. wind turbines [much better to have pushed PV panels for as manyroofs as possible instead), and want to look 'trendy' and 'forward thinking' on 'green issues'.

That's why I think that the big push towards EVs, especially bring forward the sales changeove date and now doing the same for boilers and home energy efficiency is atterly stupid - only the well off can afford it, and yet the rest of us still pays THEM subsidies to do so, despite them being already able to pay the full retail cost.

Many of my former colleagues in Building Services Engineering are in full agreement, as evidenced by the person I referreed to who wrote in to the Telegraph recently about the boilers/home insulation issue.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - alan1302

Actually not so - air source heat pumps have been around for ages now (all air source heat pumps are are A/C units with the cooling side disabled), it's just that there wasn't any incentive to switch, plus the disincentive that still exists (similar to that for EV charging at home) for people living in flats, terraced or older housing - either:

From what you've said I still think EV's are much further ahead in development - air source pumps may have been around for a while but EV's have been around since the first motorised vehicles and it's only in recent years that they have been more viable for day to day use...mainly due to battery technology. As you said there has not been the incentive to invest money into alternative heating.

I'll ask you again - what fuel source would you propose for the future - both for vehicles and for heating?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

"My ICE car is 15yo and still going nicely indeed."

Mu house boiler was installed in 1983 so it's 38 years old.

Works very well thank you.

Some parts are still available. (Sometimes new on ebay and cheap)

Lucky you. Many other people, myself included, weren't so lucky. My replacement boiler (as its from a good make which should still be around for a long time and uses standard type parts) should fair a lot better than the original though.

As I've detailed in another thread, my PC is not so lucky, though only because of one part, the most crutial one, the motherboard.

That, in my view, will be the problem with cars as they transition from ICE to EV design, because an increasing reliance on sealed-for-life electronics means that small sub components failures neccessitate the replacement of the entire unit, whether due to a lack of parts, they physically cannot be changed without breaking the rest of the component, a lack of repair expertise on that part and/or the cost of the repair.

I still find that with electronics, when a part has to be replaced outside of warranty, especially when the overall unit is reaching 10yo, it is not worth replacing a major component because the likelihood is that something else will fail within the next few years that will not be able to be replaced (see above reasons), making the high cost of replacing the first part a waste of time, given, how much the product is actually worth at the time.

That's why I replaced my oven a few years ago, because the PCB may have been broken as well as the fuse, which would've costed me around £200 total to have repaired, all for a unit at its useful life (15 years). With an ICE car, if the body is not rotting, then it should be relatively easy to see whether it's worth repairing. I'm not sure that would be the case for a 10yo EV owned by a person on a low income.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - madf

You can buy used Tesla spares reasonably cheaply on ebay just as for ICE cars.

I see this becoming the norm..(and is for 15 year old cars anyway. Few buy OE parts when none OE/s.h parts are a factor of one third to one quarter of the price.

But your point on ground pumps and flat dwellers is well made.

I assume many of the people driving "green issues" do not live in flats.

(But like Boris have a country house)

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

Cars have been relying on sealed for life electronics for 20 years or more. The transition has nothing to do with ICE to EV.

Most modules: body control, ABS, differentials, HVAC, entertainment, controls etc have been like this increasingly for decades. All of them the official repair is to replace the whole unit. A rear bulb can cost £500 on a modern car whether ICE or EV because it is a LED sealed unit.

Fortunately there is a big industry for repairing things which officially can't be repaired which, along with a used parts market, takes over to keep older cars on the road once they get to 7-8 years old. Most are scrapped by 15 years.

Sure an EV adds more electronics (although removed a lot of complicated stuff which wears as well) but a lot of the car is pretty much identical whatever powers it.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

Cars have been relying on sealed for life electronics for 20 years or more. The transition has nothing to do with ICE to EV.

Most modules: body control, ABS, differentials, HVAC, entertainment, controls etc have been like this increasingly for decades. All of them the official repair is to replace the whole unit. A rear bulb can cost £500 on a modern car whether ICE or EV because it is a LED sealed unit.

Fortunately there is a big industry for repairing things which officially can't be repaired which, along with a used parts market, takes over to keep older cars on the road once they get to 7-8 years old. Most are scrapped by 15 years.

Sure an EV adds more electronics (although removed a lot of complicated stuff which wears as well) but a lot of the car is pretty much identical whatever powers it.

You've just proved your first statement incorrect by the last sentence. I mean, what are the things that most go wrong in modern ICE cars? The electronics, especially the gizmos associated with the three-lettered acronym safety systems, in-car entertainment, sat-mav, etc.

As EVs are entirely that sort of kit, which manufacturers more than don't deny are released to market with the full intention of car buyers being used as defacto beta testers, I won't be putting that much faith in the short or long term reliability of the kit, especially when the technology changes so often, making that installed just 5 years ago effectively obsolete.

Many car manufacturers won't or can't upgrade ICE/in-built satnavs to accept the latest tablet-like OSes because the software itself deliberately precludes updating (crtuicial for satnavs) after a far shorter time than that of PC equipment.

My Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 has not had any OS updates for years, and now many apps won't work at all or are unusable (too slow) because they haven't been supported for updates for 2+ years now. And yet car manufacturers are allowed to get away with it despite them being forced by law to hold spares for car for 10 years after the model goes out of production.

I don't see it being easier for EVs (as evidenced by early Tesla car owners in the US having problems getting them maintained when they get older), in fact, quite the opposite. Ironically, standarisation of parts should make things easier, but I'm still amazed at how often electronics manufacturers deliberately include unique parts in their equipment so it is either uneconomic or impossible to use non-manufacurer reapir shops, if they can be repaired at all.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - galileo

And yet car manufacturers are allowed to get away with it despite them being forced by law to hold spares for car for 10 years after the model goes out of production.

Is it actually a legal duty?

I involved for a few years in arranging manufacture of small batches of 'obsolete' spares for the company's products (which were for automotive/rail/marine engines).

I was told that the '10 years spares availability for cars' was an agreement with the SMMT many years ago. It was, I was told, obligatory to provide spares for military application engines for 15 years and 20 years for marine units.

This could be a challenge where patterns/dies were no longer usable or when original manufacturers had gone out of business. Parts manufacture depending on replacement puts the unit cost up to many times that of the original volume produced item. (Cue customer "HOW much??")

These days 3-D printing could help in some of these cases, as always, it is the cost of making 'superseded' parts which is the problem for the end user.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

And yet car manufacturers are allowed to get away with it despite them being forced by law to hold spares for car for 10 years after the model goes out of production.

Is it actually a legal duty?

I involved for a few years in arranging manufacture of small batches of 'obsolete' spares for the company's products (which were for automotive/rail/marine engines).

I was told that the '10 years spares availability for cars' was an agreement with the SMMT many years ago. It was, I was told, obligatory to provide spares for military application engines for 15 years and 20 years for marine units.

This could be a challenge where patterns/dies were no longer usable or when original manufacturers had gone out of business. Parts manufacture depending on replacement puts the unit cost up to many times that of the original volume produced item. (Cue customer "HOW much??")

These days 3-D printing could help in some of these cases, as always, it is the cost of making 'superseded' parts which is the problem for the end user.

Indeed, as I found out 15 years ago when my old mini hifi suffered failed components (tape motor and CD laser drive unit (I assumed it was that because it wouldn't lock onto a keep a track going). Back then, the cost of replacements (including labour and me having to either drive/go by train/courier it to/back from the repair shop) was well over £200, the unit itself originally costing £500.

All the parts had to either be shipped from the US or Japan, which would take several weeks, and none would be the OEM part. I'd already had one motor drive (other tape deck) replaced, and the replacement unit wasn't as good (noisy) as the OEM one.

My old boiler's timer/controller unit failed (one of many parts) for the third time (i.e. it was the second replacement), and it cost £150+postage, assuming there were any left in stock at the only seller in the UK. Ironically it was more difficult to find a plumber willing to work on said boiler (needs special training as it is unusual/safety reasons) - the nearest was about about 2hrs drive away. I can only guess at how much he'd charge for the callout(s).

I can imagine that car manufacturers, like many electronics manufacturers, will make excuses as EVs take over sales volume for why they can't justify keeping sufficient (or any) stocks of spare parts for 10 years after the car goes out of production. I was lucky with my gen-1 Mazda3 (out of production in 2009) that the gen-2 was, under the skin quite similar (especially the engines) to the first gen car, more evolution than revolution (far more the latter for the gen-2 to 3 changes).

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bromptonaut

You've just proved your first statement incorrect by the last sentence. I mean, what are the things that most go wrong in modern ICE cars? The electronics, especially the gizmos associated with the three-lettered acronym safety systems, in-car entertainment, sat-mav, etc.

Modern ICE cars are pretty reliable largely as a result of electronics. No trouble prone points and distribution/HT side vastly simplified. Timing set automatically and adjusts for low octane fuel. Cold start is under fully automated control.

Last four faults on my cars have been a clutch, dragging brake and the EOLYS pump on a PSA diesel. No clutch or emissions control gubbins on an EV. No water or oil pump, no cambelt, no turbo and associated plumbing, no EGR.

The only constraint so far for me is range as we've had, for at least 20 years, 2 interchangeable cars. If I accepted mine was just for commuting and other local (ish) stuff then I'd be electric in a blink.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Terry W

The nonsense about EVs beggars belief.

Charging - asserting that charging vehices will be limited only to few owners of detached houses is nonsense. Building Research Establishment report the UK housing stock includes detached 18%, semi-detached 25%, bungalows 8%.

So ~50% can probably charge at home - those who cannot may be offset by terraced and flats which have charging points. Charging at supermarkets, work, etc is on top of this.

Power generation and transmission is put forward as a barrier. National Grid see no problem as the transition to EVs will take ~15 years - there may be local problems which need resolution but overall it is a non-issue.

The only question is whether the annual increase in demand is 1,2,3 or 4%, all of which are achievable with planning. I assume (naive?) they realise that any current work to replace and upgrade systems will need to have future demand in mind.

Suggesting EVs will be more expensive to fix as batteries fail is suspect. Manufacturers currently warrant ther batteries for 8-10 years and ~75% capacity.

This is more than any manufacturers offer on ICE components. It seems likely that as more EVs are sold and they age, businesses will evolve in recycling spares and replacement of individual modules.

Purely personally - I would not now buy an EV due to range concerns - driving to the Costas in winter and visiting friends and relatives a 400 mile round trip away would be a pain. As a second car - no problem but there is little economic benefit is spending £20k+ for a car that does only 2-4000 a year.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

You've just proved your first statement incorrect by the last sentence. I mean, what are the things that most go wrong in modern ICE cars? The electronics, especially the gizmos associated with the three-lettered acronym safety systems, in-car entertainment, sat-mav, etc.

neconomic or impossible to use non-manufacurer reapir shops, if they can be repaired at all.

My point is there aren't many more electronics in an EV car than an ICE one. Sure, you have a battery and a motor and.......I can't think of much else. You don't have a transmission ECU, a valve body, loads of engine sensors, EGR valves, twin turbos, DPF/GPF, a cat convertor etc. however.

Other than that all the body control modules, driver interface, HVAC system etc is not a lot if any different.

A Tesla could just as easily be an ICE car with the same approach to tech.

Edited by pd on 30/04/2021 at 19:00

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

You've just proved your first statement incorrect by the last sentence. I mean, what are the things that most go wrong in modern ICE cars? The electronics, especially the gizmos associated with the three-lettered acronym safety systems, in-car entertainment, sat-mav, etc.

neconomic or impossible to use non-manufacurer reapir shops, if they can be repaired at all.

My point is there aren't many more electronics in an EV car than an ICE one. Sure, you have a battery and a motor and.......I can't think of much else. You don't have a transmission ECU, a valve body, loads of engine sensors, EGR valves, twin turbos, DPF/GPF, a cat convertor etc. however.

Other than that all the body control modules, driver interface, HVAC system etc is not a lot if any different.

A Tesla could just as easily be an ICE car with the same approach to tech.

You have one or possibly several (one per wheel) motors, plus its own control system, plus a far more fancy battery control system, so nothing that really gives much in the way of notice when said system is about to fail. Plus the CTRL+ALT+DEL thingy when the inevitable 'glitch' leads to the car stopping at 70mph on the motorway.

Given the number of modern (as in all computer controlled) ICE cars that have similar problems, I think that they need to get their act together asap.

The thing with ICE cars (less so for today's latest rather than my 15yo one and older) is that they at least either give fair warning of a major failure (for the most part) or some sensor failure does not necessarily lead to the car literally stopping in its tracks and refusing to go whilst stuck in a dangerous place.

Example - someone I know who owns a Tesla mistakenly thought they'd get to their destination without recharging, the battery pack got fully depleted and the car stopped in the middle of nowhere.

Just like running out of fuel? No - the wheels all locked up, meaning it either had to be dragged behind another vehcile, ruining the tyres and possibly the braking systems, or wait several hours for a large recovery vehicle that could transport it to the nearest charging point. An ICE car, at least one with a physical handbrake, could be pushed out of harms way and/or towed by an ordinary car with a rope to the nearest (likely closer) filling station.

It's also telling that EVs tend to be amongst the most unreliable cars on the road at the moment, IMHO precisely because much of the electronics has not been sufficiently developed and tested before release to market. It's bad enough with the latest ICE cars that need 'software patches' every time they go to the garage (and not just new features for the stereo or satnav). I can remember when cars rarely needed work done on them - recalls were serious flaws in design, now they appear commonplace, like with mobile phones, etc.

Let's just hope that things don't keep going in that direction for things where safety is FAR more crucial.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Bolt

Just like running out of fuel? No - the wheels all locked up, meaning it either had to be dragged behind another vehcile, ruining the tyres and possibly the braking systems, or wait several hours for a large recovery vehicle that could transport it to the nearest charging point.

I`ve heard this before, but not if there is an explanation of why this happens, they should be designed to release all wheels with a backup battery to release EHB if they have one? no idea if they have or not

or is it electro magnetic force that lock the wheels in place so they cannot move? I`m puzzled why this should work like that but I don`t know much about Tesla though plenty around my way

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

What actual evidence is there that EV cars are more unreliable? I am not disputing it, just never seen or heard of any.

I think you are underestimating just how much is electrical compared to mechanical in a modern 2021 car. A lot of electrical failures will indeed bring an ICE car to a halt.

My views on people running out is that someone who runs out of petrol or diesel is a bit of an i**** and someone who runs out of electricity is a bit of an i****.

Like ICE cars most EVs will in fact go beyond the zero miles readout so if you do run out you have to really pushed it. Most go into a "limp" mode beforehand as well (as do some ICE cars).

I'm no great EV car fan but they are just cars not a lot different to the cars we have and there will be good ones and bad ones, reliable ones and unreliable ones just like we have always had. I am relaxed about the change.

Edited by pd on 01/05/2021 at 13:51

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

Incidentally if memory serves Teslas do not "lock up". They drop down to 15mph then eventually stop and then come to a halt and go into park just as many ICE cars do when you turn them off.

To move them a small amount you put them in neutral and they can be loaded onto a flatbed or pushed a small distance. They should not be towed.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Engineer Andy

Incidentally if memory serves Teslas do not "lock up". They drop down to 15mph then eventually stop and then come to a halt and go into park just as many ICE cars do when you turn them off.

To move them a small amount you put them in neutral and they can be loaded onto a flatbed or pushed a small distance. They should not be towed.

Well, all I'm doing is relating the story as told. Incidentally, how can you put an EV in 'neutral' if it has no power? Aren't they all fly-by-wire with no physical on-off contacts for such things?

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - pd

Incidentally if memory serves Teslas do not "lock up". They drop down to 15mph then eventually stop and then come to a halt and go into park just as many ICE cars do when you turn them off.

To move them a small amount you put them in neutral and they can be loaded onto a flatbed or pushed a small distance. They should not be towed.

Well, all I'm doing is relating the story as told. Incidentally, how can you put an EV in 'neutral' if it has no power? Aren't they all fly-by-wire with no physical on-off contacts for such things?

They stop before they run completely out of power so basic controls will still work, just not enough power to move. Many have a conventional 12v battery as well.

Tesla call it "transport mode" I think. No modern auto has a direct link to the transmission now that I am aware of so all have some sort of way of getting them being able to move.

getting sick of the DT hyping electric cars - Lee Power

My views on people running out is that someone who runs out of petrol or diesel is a bit of an i**** and someone who runs out of electricity is a bit of an i****.

I've ran out of fuel once before, Peugeot 107 courtesy car - the wonderful led fuel readout went from 3 bars ( half full ) to no bars in the space of 7 miles - it didn't even make the next filling station.

Coasted to a halt in the inside lane, stuck it in 2nd gear & used a combination of starter / clutch to get it to roll the couple of hundred yards on to the filling station forecourt.