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The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Steveieb

Seeing Lewis s performance in the Turkish GP last Sunday confirmed his position as the best driver in the wet.

But Ronnie o Sullivan’s comments about Lewis s advantage by consistently having the best car got me thinking. Ronnie compared it to a snooker player been given wider pockets to make things easier.

I would like to see some acknowledgement of this from Lewis and him taking on driving for Ferrari whose performance recently has been abismal.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - mcb100

I've no doubt that LH is head and shoulders better than everyone else on the grid, regardless of what he's driving. And he's not experiencing any diminishing of his abilities. He makes very few mistakes, and has maintained a reputation of being a 'clean' driver.

I have a pet theory that Ronnie O'Sullivan isn't a sportsman in that snooker is a game and not a sport. My criteria for differentiating a sport from a game? You need to wear special shoes for a sport, you don't for a game...

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - madf

This weekend's 's win by LH at the Turkish GP proves he is the best driver. His Mercedes companion Bottas - did not finish.

He overtook the field from 6th and despite smooth wet tyres (!) outcornered everyone on a wet track.

I don't watch many GPs - too boring. This was NOT boring : it was a masterclass display.

Edited by madf on 19/11/2020 at 14:43

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - _

I think that to be truly great he needs to pay his taxes in the UK instead of hiding it away in tax havens. At least Ronnie o'Sullivan pays his taxes in the UK.

Legal.. yes. Moral... absolutely not.

Too fond of reminding us that is from a council estate somewhere.

I have no axe to grind, but another sportsman, from a single parent in manchester who has not forgotten his roots................Marcus Rashford IS putting something back and doing something for all disadvantaged kids who are hungry.

Well done Marcus!

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - mcb100

'I think that to be truly great he needs to pay his taxes in the UK instead of hiding it away in tax havens. At least Ronnie o'Sullivan pays his taxes in the UK.

Legal.. yes. Moral... absolutely not.'

He is, apparently, amongst the top 5000 UK tax payers. He also draws income from multiple sources around he world so pays taxes in many countries. Sir Jackie Stewart has lived in Switzerland for many decades, is that because he enjoys the scenery?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - _

How many years ago did Jackie Stewart retire?

How many of our top UK footballing sportsmen reside in tax havens?

Not many..

LH as a person is a good driver, it does not however make him a good person, but that is only my point of view. Let him start feeding the Kids on the council estates in Stevenage and I might think more of him. He could give a lot to feed kids and it would all be tax deductible.

How do I know.. YRG and myself give heavily to chariities and deduct from our taxes.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - mcb100

Jackie Stewart moved to Switzerland in 1968, five years before he retired from F1.

Footballers, by definition, play football. Which in terms of the Premier League takes place in England. It’d be a hell of a commute daily from Monaco to Manchester for training. F1 is a global sport, and I think I’d rather live in Monaco than Stevenage (with apologies to anyone living in Stevenage) if I wasn’t tied to a location for work.

Without access to his accounts, how do we know he doesn't give large amounts to charity but doesn't feel the need to tell everyone?

Edited by mcb100 on 19/11/2020 at 16:01

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Steveieb
Maybe a greater long term contribution would be to get the world of football to stop dodging tax, which could easily pay for the free school meals ORB.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Engineer Andy

I've no doubt that LH is head and shoulders better than everyone else on the grid, regardless of what he's driving. And he's not experiencing any diminishing of his abilities. He makes very few mistakes, and has maintained a reputation of being a 'clean' driver.

I have a pet theory that Ronnie O'Sullivan isn't a sportsman in that snooker is a game and not a sport. My criteria for differentiating a sport from a game? You need to wear special shoes for a sport, you don't for a game...

Ronnie and his fellow snooker players are, in my view, sportsmen. Besides being very skilled at the technical side, they have to be great tacticians, be physically fit (including supply for those long reach shots) and especially be mentally tough.

When Ronnie has been off on that last issue, he has always done poorly in comparison when he hasn't - but even then, his considerable (and unmatched) talents in the other categories have kept him in contention.

Whilst I agree that Lewis Hamilton is undoubtedly the best driver in the last deacde or so, it is difficult to say whether he is the best ever. Would he have had 7 world titles had all drivers been given the same equipment and pit lane backup - quite possibly, given he was driving for McLaren for a good few years when their cars weren't as good as the Ferraris and Red Bulls.

A comparison between either current drivers or those in the past is always difficult, as you can't compare them properly due to significant differences in technology, medical science/physical training available, the team budgets, differences in teams and other pressures or distractions such as the social scene.

One thing no in Hamilton's favour, especially amongst those (including chief sports writer for the DT, Oliver Brown) advocating (more like virtue-signalling) him being knighted is that he has not been the best ambassador for the sport (like Stirling Moss), not played a pivotal role in the safety side (as Jackie Stewart), and who changed his tune on politics to supporting certain 'activist groups' only after he was bullied into doing so by activists after a number of rather 'unflattering' comments.

He also had to apologise after he compared Stevenage to 'slums' (it ain't that bad) and amazingly never mentioning being racially abused in his home town, despite having numerous opportunities during his career, but then (if I recall) plucked non-specific incidents out of thin air when he had bent the knee to the activists to regain some sympathy after BLM had gained traction.

There's no denying the racism he suffered at the hands of some so-called 'fans' of some foreign rivals at their home race circuits, but of the offcials and of locals during his youth?

I remember him being involved in many 'racing incidients' in his first 7-8 years of F1 that rightly got him (and the other parties involved) hauled up in front of the martials. Jesnon Button didn't because he was more risk averse as a driver - I can remember Nigel Mansell and particularly Damon Hill also on the recieving end for similar 'manouvres'.

Certain drivers like Michael Schumacher, Nico Rosberg and more latterly Seb Vettel got away with thing far more often probably because, in my view, they all had better relations with Bernie Ecclestone and other F1 higher-ups, and two of them drove for Ferrari, who've always been (in my view) given a better ride by the sports administrators/regulators. Mansell and Hill would likely attest to that.

In my view, there has been a long thing against Brits in the sport (drivers and teams) since the mid 1970s, but the difference is that Hamilton had a bigger chip on his shoulder than many. Following Rosberg's title win and exit, I thought that Hamilton had mellowed - as evidenced by his significantly more mature driving style in dealing with rivals on the circuit, proven by him rarely being the cause of incidents rather than quite often (or at least 50:50) in previous years and contributed to him easily winning the title since. Until the last years events, I even thought he was making great strides in his off-circuit behaviour, putting behind some past issues.

Him going 'political' in the last year will, I believe, have an impact on him as a driver, but also on his standing amongst other drivers (which was on the up beforehand) and amongst F1 and his own fans. I've always supported him and other British drivers, but I think his (IMHO faux) activism to gain woke points has severely soured many fans' opinion of him, msyelf included.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - craig-pd130

The only way to settle arguments about 'who is the best driver' in any given season is for every car on the grid to be identical and identically prepared, and for the drivers to draw lots to decide which car they get.

Until then there are always people who will claim one driver has a better car than another. I would say that the drivers than win consistently have the best team around them., rather than the best car.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - _

The only way to settle arguments about 'who is the best driver' in any given season is for every car on the grid to be identical and identically prepared, and for the drivers to draw lots to decide which car they get.

Until then there are always people who will claim one driver has a better car than another. I would say that the drivers than win consistently have the best team around them., rather than the best car.

ditto!

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - madf

I did not realise that car driving in F1 involved a morality test.

If it did: the following would fail

M Schumacher - crashing into opponents in order to win

James Hunt - womanising

S Moss: womanising

and so on

Hamilton is entitled to hold whatever opinions he likes and live where he likes.

They are irrelevant to his skill as a driver..

His achievements have been matched by no-one. Period.

Edited by madf on 19/11/2020 at 16:21

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - John F

He is undoubtedly a very good driver and he does acknowledge his wins owe much to team effort and having the best car. That is why I find endurance racing, especially Le Mans, more interesting than F1. Whether his good fortune on a not very level playing field deserves a knighthood is a moot point. I think it would have been a different story if he had been driving for Williams.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - _

He is undoubtedly a very good driver and he does acknowledge his wins owe much to team effort and having the best car. That is why I find endurance racing, especially Le Mans, more interesting than F1. Whether his good fortune on a not very level playing field deserves a knighthood is a moot point. I think it would have been a different story if he had been driving for Williams.

I agree that he is a good driver and yes, the car has a lot to do with it,

But here is one race he has lost (tongue in cheek)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8966063/Lewis-Ham...l

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - bathtub tom

He's a brilliant racer, but I don't know how he finds room for his ego with the enormous chip on his shoulder and for that reason I can never like him. This is typical: tinyurl.com/y6azxqyr

I can never support BLM because of their aim to abolish the police force and close prisons.

Remember Victoria Beckham trying to prevent Peterborough football club from using the 'posh' title?

I had a similar disrespect for Schumacher, for his arrogance.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - alan1302

I can never support BLM because of their aim to abolish the police force and close prisons.

Except BLM don't want to abolish the police and close prisons...so you support it now?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - bathtub tom

I can never support BLM because of their aim to abolish the police force and close prisons.

Except BLM don't want to abolish the police and close prisons...so you support it now?

Please see items three and seven: tinyurl.com/y48kb4y8

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Bromptonaut

Please see items three and seven: tinyurl.com/y48kb4y8

Is there any link between the slogan adopted around deaths in custody etc and a similarly named group of left wing activists?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - mcb100
It is entirely possible to promote the cause of black lives matter without being a supporter or card carrying member of Black Lives Matter.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Manatee

Mercedes did not have the best car when Lewis left McLaren in 2012 to go to Mercedes in 2013. In fact most commentators said he had made a mistake.

Wolff has been emphatic that Hamilton has been a driving force in the team and not just a pilot.

I like him, if that's possible to say about someone I've never met. He might have the best car now but he still has it to do, and he does it with astonishing consistency, very few mistakes, and in a fair and sportsmanlike way. Bottas is considered a good, fast, driver and almost matches Hamilton in qualifying but he can't produce the same consistency in the race itself, week after week

I have no idea how much he gives to charities but he has certainly supported UNICEF and Save the Children among others. He works internationally, I understand he pays tax internationally and significant amounts in the UK. And he is certainly not the only F1 driver to live in Monaco.

I keep hearing (or reading on the F1 forums where it is fashionable to 'hate' him) how selfish and petulant he is. He was as I recall somewhat sulky and morose at the end of his period with McLaren and I think he has more or less admitted that breaking with his father was part of that. He has grown up a lot since then (as we all do, or most of us) and I now see him as a much more mature and thoughtful character.

He has more of a hinterland to my my mind, and is probably less of a playboy, than many of his peers who don't get the kind of criticism he gets. I understand his 'activism', I don't think it's about him and I admire him for it.

Among so-called F1 fans there is a large body who attack everything about him. Much of it IMO is simply racist. Of course it is possible to dislike him on other grounds but many of the stated reasons just don't stack up.

The records are not the point - there are more opportunities now, different competition, equipment plays a part, and some of his predecessors simply didn't live long enough to realize their potential

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Falkirk Bairn

Lewis Hamilton loses a court case against Hamilton Watches for use of the name.

Hamilton Watches have been around for 120+ years.

Taking on a court case without looking at the reality that the watchmaker held all the Aces

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - ExA35Owner

The best drivers will in the end get the best cars. And the best cars will get the best drivers.

Does anyone think that a team at the bottom of League 2 are likely to have better players than a team at the top of the Premier League?

Really good piece about him in The Times the other day by Matthew Syed, one of the most thoughtful and informative sports journalists.

Racecraft and teamwork are two of Hamilton's strongest suits.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Steveieb
Understand that Alonso was always the McLaren teams favourite when the two raced side by side but Hamilton won the day because of his special relationship with Ron Dennis
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - badbusdriver

No doubt at all that Hamilton is a great driver, and as the thread title says, the most successful one. But the greatest?, difficult to say unless competing on a level playing field, which F1 clearly isn't.

I've heard it said before, that the mark of a true genius behind the wheel is the ability to make a below par car exceed expectations, Moss springs to mind here, Alonso too in more recent times, but not so much Hamilton. He certainly does seem to be more mature now, with less impatience related mistakes, but I guess that is to be expected with the amount of time he has been at it.

Sadly, for the viewer, F1 isn't that exciting these days, hasn't been for a number of years. The vast gulf in the budget between Merc, Ferrari (not that it is helping them at the moment) and to a lesser extent, Red Bull, is only part of the problem. The others are the cars themselves, which in addition to being too wide (making overtakes difficult, on some tracks more than others), but also being too reliant on aerodynamics which adds to the difficulty of overtaking. There are also some pretty duff tracks, clearly only included in the calendar because of huge sums of money being thrown at the governing body. But even tracks like Monaco (and I admit I may be in a minority here), for all its glamour and history, I just don't think it works for an F1 car because of how narrow it is. Usually these days, it is just a procession, with what little 'overtaking' there is, happening through pit stops. Which takes me neatly to another bug bear of mine. The sport surely is about the skill of the driver, so having races being won through the speed of the pit crew coupled with being pitted at the right time, to me its just wrong. The tyres should last the race distance, with drivers who are less hard on their tyres having a marked advantage towards the end of the race distance. I feel pit stops should only happen to deal with problems, or, should rain start, to put on wet tyres (for safety reasons).

I keep on watching F1 in the vain hope it becomes more interesting, exciting and with a more level playing field, but invariably I end up disappointed.

At least there is the BTCC for some properly exciting motorsport, along with various motorbike racing series.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - craig-pd130

The sport surely is about the skill of the driver, so having races being won through the speed of the pit crew coupled with being pitted at the right time, to me its just wrong. The tyres should last the race distance, with drivers who are less hard on their tyres having a marked advantage towards the end of the race distance. I feel pit stops should only happen to deal with problems, or, should rain start, to put on wet tyres (for safety reasons).

At least there is the BTCC for some properly exciting motorsport, along with various motorbike racing series.

Completely agree. F1 should be flag-to-flag racing as it is in Moto GP, WSB, BSB etc: pit stops should only be to sort problems. In bike racing they deal with rainfall during a race by stopping the race, allowing riders to switch to wets and restarting, with the result being an aggregate.

F1 drivers have been saying since the 90s that to make the races more exciting, downforce should be reduced by restricting wing area . This would lengthen braking distances and mean more opportunities for slipstreaming, allowing more overtakes. But I suspect the FIA likes the focus on sponsors' logos that happens during pit stops.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - veloceman
Long before I started watching F1 (late 70’s) there has always been one dominant team. Drivers would win by two or three laps. Now it’s rarely more than 20s.
The cars are generally too heavy now and rarely can a driver pull out of a spin. Too much reliance on wings to create downforce which is unnecessary in my view.
Hamilton in my view is a genius which was demonstrated on Sunday
Which I see as one of his best drives whilst his nearest rivals could keep it on the track.
Yup he’s got the best car (which he helps develop). You certainly can’t win if you don’t have the best car but it’s not guaranteed if you do.
Tracks you can’t overtake on are pointless so you can get rid of Hungary and Monaco for a start.
But I agree we need cars that are more equal and can race.
As for BTCC last years final round was the best days racing I’ve ever seen live. This years was dull in comparison.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Manatee

No doubt at all that Hamilton is a great driver, and as the thread title says, the most successful one. But the greatest?, difficult to say unless competing on a level playing field, which F1 clearly isn't.

I've heard it said before, that the mark of a true genius behind the wheel is the ability to make a below par car exceed expectations, Moss springs to mind here, Alonso too in more recent times, but not so much Hamilton. He certainly does seem to be more mature now, with less impatience related mistakes, but I guess that is to be expected with the amount of time he has been at it.

Sadly, for the viewer, F1 isn't that exciting these days, hasn't been for a number of years. The vast gulf in the budget between Merc, Ferrari (not that it is helping them at the moment) and to a lesser extent, Red Bull, is only part of the problem. The others are the cars themselves, which in addition to being too wide (making overtakes difficult, on some tracks more than others), but also being too reliant on aerodynamics which adds to the difficulty of overtaking. There are also some pretty duff tracks, clearly only included in the calendar because of huge sums of money being thrown at the governing body. But even tracks like Monaco (and I admit I may be in a minority here), for all its glamour and history, I just don't think it works for an F1 car because of how narrow it is. Usually these days, it is just a procession, with what little 'overtaking' there is, happening through pit stops. Which takes me neatly to another bug bear of mine. The sport surely is about the skill of the driver, so having races being won through the speed of the pit crew coupled with being pitted at the right time, to me its just wrong. The tyres should last the race distance, with drivers who are less hard on their tyres having a marked advantage towards the end of the race distance. I feel pit stops should only happen to deal with problems, or, should rain start, to put on wet tyres (for safety reasons).

I keep on watching F1 in the vain hope it becomes more interesting, exciting and with a more level playing field, but invariably I end up disappointed.

At least there is the BTCC for some properly exciting motorsport, along with various motorbike racing series.

I have pondered that but it is clearly about much more, otherwise it could be run much more cheaply as a one make/model series.

It's a team sport and an entertainment. The Tifosi for example follow their drivers but only because they are driving for Ferrari. The team is the thing for them. There is a drivers', and a constructors', championship.

Insiders, and close followers if they can put bias aside, know who the best drivers are. They make fewer mistakes, they beat their team mates consistently, they are adaptable and good in all conditions. Was Hamilton just lucky in Turkey that Verstappen had a bad start and spun twice? Or was he just more skilful than the man considered his potential equal? Hamilton didn't appear to have a car advantage in the first part of the race and couldn't stay with the Racing Points (Bottas was really struggling further back) but he learned and adapted through the race, got himself 30 seconds ahead and took his own decision to stay out on worn-out intermediates for the last 2 laps having realised by then that they made quite good slicks. He wasn't by any means made a gift of the win.

Wet conditions are a great equaliser. The aerodynamics don't work properly at lower speeds and none of the cars can use all the power at their disposal. Turkey was worse than that with the tyre/track combination just not working at all for most drivers and most of the race. I lost count of Valtteri Bottas's spins, and he's not a mug.

Nevertheless I think it's meaningless to argue about the relative skills of say Jim Clark v. Hamilton. The mere fact that the drivers of Clark's era were more than likely to die if they had a high speed crash makes comparisons odious but even without that it's pointless.


The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Manatee

Taking on a court case without looking at the reality that the watchmaker held all the Aces

Of course the lawyers knew the history of Hamilton watches and if LH was consulted at all then he would have been given full information and advice. Whether he did, what it was, and what he did with it, I don't suppose we will find out. Some companies routinely search for possible IP infringements and pursue them, especially those whose principal business is to exploit it through licensing etc.

There will I suspect have been considerations about the range of goods the application applied to and geographical markets. I don't think it tells us much about LH.

I expect Hamilton endorses watches with his name on. His 'people' might even have been trying to get their retaliation in first?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - madf

Taking on a court case without looking at the reality that the watchmaker held all the Aces

Of course the lawyers knew the history of Hamilton watches and if LH was consulted at all then he would have been given full information and advice. Whether he did, what it was, and what he did with it, I don't suppose we will find out. Some companies routinely search for possible IP infringements and pursue them, especially those whose principal business is to exploit it through licensing etc.

There will I suspect have been considerations about the range of goods the application applied to and geographical markets. I don't think it tells us much about LH.

I expect Hamilton endorses watches with his name on. His 'people' might even have been trying to get their retaliation in first?

Tag Heuer www.tagheuer.com/gb/en/timepieces/collections/tag-.../

www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/552183604291464278/

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - mcb100
The next engine formula will be critical for the future of F1. Honda have already said they’re leaving because the current hybrids don’t reflect road car R&D, which is currently EV and, to a lesser extent, hydrogen based.
Whether the other manufacturers remain is to be seen, and we could end up with a recreation of earlier days, with a grid formed of ‘garagistes’.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Stackman II

It's always difficult, if not impossible, to compare drivers from different eras and the nature of the sport means that there always seems to be a dominant engineering package to skew any perception.

Successful individuals are different to the rest of us, their focus and drive are what has put them where they are and that doesn't really make for a touchy-feelly perona. All the really great drivers of my era, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso are all a bit intense. In the modern media age it's difficult to discern a persons real personality from the media hype but Hamilton always comes across to me as quite a quiet individual who realises how lucky he has been.

As concerns footballers' salaries, my son in law is a sales manager at a Land Rover dealer. A player from a recently-relegated club wanted to buy a Range Rover and in order to sort the finance had to bring in his pay-slips.

His gross monthly pay was £500,000 of which he got to keep "just" £170,000 ! He's certainly paying for his share of nurses and nuclear weapons..

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - craig-pd130

His gross monthly pay was £500,000 of which he got to keep "just" £170,000 ! He's certainly paying for his share of nurses and nuclear weapons..

He must have been paying off quite a bit of taxes owed from previous years if he was only taking home 170K.

Assuming no back taxes and excluding any other deductions, someone grossing £500K / month would pay £205K in personal income tax at the current rates, meaning they should net the thick end of £300K per month.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Steveieb

Sorry to see Honda leaving F1.

Abandoned by Braun Racing then Mc laren who claimed their engines were rubbish only to succeed once Red Bull fitted then the following year.

Abandoned by Rover when they chose to collaborate with BMW . Honda were the good guys until they decided to abandon Swindo !

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - RT

Honda are now in partnership with GM - we'll see how that ends up, better than the GM-Fiat Alliance I hope.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - mcb100
It wasn’t quite a case of being abandoned by Brawn. Honda ran their own team, with not much in the way of a return in the way of success. They pulled the plug, leaving all the staff out of a job until Ross Brawn quickly set up a new team using the proposed chassis for the following team, reengineered to take a Mercedes engine, which then dominated the first half of the season and guided Jenson Button to the world driver’s championship in 2009 and the team the constructor’s championship.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Paul_1

He should challenge Ronnie to a game of snooker!

Ah, Ronnie is a great. But he's likes to wind people up a bit too often.

Well done Lewis! Equalling the great Schumacer.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - _

Ah, Ronnie is a great. But he's likes to wind people up a bit too often.

Didn't Ronnie just "Wind" in a match,, pass that is, and apologise, and I happen to think that he is a great snooker player..

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - misar

"But Ronnie o Sullivan’s comments about Lewis s advantage by consistently having the best car got me thinking. Ronnie compared it to a snooker player been given wider pockets to make things easier.

I would like to see some acknowledgement of this from Lewis and him taking on driving for Ferrari whose performance recently has been abismal."

Snooker is a solo game, F1 racing is massively a team sport. Drivers rarely come out on top without a great car and equally the teams need great drivers in order to win.

In his day Stirling Moss was a great driver and probably more famous in the UK than Lewis. He never won a world championship because he drove uncompetitive British F1 cars. Once teams like Lotus came along British drivers became almost unbeatable but was a driver like Jim Clark really "better" than Moss?

A better analogy for Lewis moving to Ferrari at present is Ronnie playing all his matches with a half length cue.

Edited by misar on 20/11/2020 at 19:14

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - badbusdriver

In his day Stirling Moss was a great driver and probably more famous in the UK than Lewis. He never won a world championship because he drove uncompetitive British F1 cars. Once teams like Lotus came along British drivers became almost unbeatable but was a driver like Jim Clark really "better" than Moss?

Stirling Moss would have won the championship in 1958 had he not defended Mike Hawthorn who was threatened with a penalty during the Portuguese GP which would have taken away the 6 points he took on the day. Hawthorn ended up winning the championship by 1 point. Can't see any current driver sticking their neck out like that for another driver.

And, OK it wasn't F1, but Stirling Moss's performance (not forgetting Denis Jenkinson as navigator) in the 1955 Mille Miglia has to be one of the greatest sporting drives ever, by any driver in any period. 1000 miles in ten hours and seven minutes, on public roads!.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Manatee

In his day Stirling Moss was a great driver and probably more famous in the UK than Lewis. He never won a world championship because he drove uncompetitive British F1 cars. Once teams like Lotus came along British drivers became almost unbeatable but was a driver like Jim Clark really "better" than Moss?

Stirling Moss would have won the championship in 1958 had he not defended Mike Hawthorn who was threatened with a penalty during the Portuguese GP which would have taken away the 6 points he took on the day. Hawthorn ended up winning the championship by 1 point. Can't see any current driver sticking their neck out like that for another driver.

And, OK it wasn't F1, but Stirling Moss's performance (not forgetting Denis Jenkinson as navigator) in the 1955 Mille Miglia has to be one of the greatest sporting drives ever, by any driver in any period. 1000 miles in ten hours and seven minutes, on public roads!.

Jenks's write up of that in Motorsport is something I re-read now and again. An incredible feat, to average just under 100mph for 10 hours on roads thronged with spectators.

It's a good long article!

www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/june-19...a

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - craig-pd130

Stirling Moss would have won the championship in 1958 had he not defended Mike Hawthorn who was threatened with a penalty during the Portuguese GP which would have taken away the 6 points he took on the day. Hawthorn ended up winning the championship by 1 point. Can't see any current driver sticking their neck out like that for another driver.

Indeed. Motorsports journo Nigel Roebuck once asked Moss why he put in a word to defend Hawthorn, because otherwise no-one would have known what Hawthorn really did and he'd have lost the points and the title.

Moss replied: "But I would have known."

What a true sportsman and gentleman.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Avant

Indeed so.

When his great rival Juan Manuel Fangio died, Stirling said simply 'He was the greatest of us all'.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Manatee

In his day Stirling Moss was a great driver and probably more famous in the UK than Lewis. He never won a world championship because he drove uncompetitive British F1 cars.

Except for Mercedes and Maserati...Fangio beat him at Mercedes, and with Ferrari when Moss was in the Maserati.

Not that I am knocking Moss. There's no doubt he was a top driver. He chose to drive British cars when he could, and successfully so especially the Vanwall. In 1958 he and Tony Brooks took Vanwall to the constructors' championship. Both had more wins than Hawthorn but failed to finish too many races to stop him being the drivers' champion.

The 1955 Mille Miglia drive alone would have established his credentials.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - John F

The 1955 Mille Miglia drive alone would have established his credentials.

As said, his victory was a team effort, owing as much to Jenkinson's (literally) revolutionary pace note scroller as to his excellent driving ability.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Manatee

The 1955 Mille Miglia drive alone would have established his credentials.

As said, his victory was a team effort, owing as much to Jenkinson's (literally) revolutionary pace note scroller as to his excellent driving ability.

It was Moss who got the alloy case made (the edited version of the June '55 Motorsport article linked above omits this, I have an unedited copy but I can't find it online).

In this later article, Jenks says he doesn't know who invented it.

www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/februar...s

Undoubtedly however he gets credit for the pace notes, and the way he delivered them via hand signals.

"As the end of the road came into view we saw the Ferrari brake lights come on and then off as Castellotti realized he had braked too early. This happened about three times as he tried to pin-point the corner, and all the time Stirling was flat-out, waiting for my signal. By the time we braked we had made up all the ground lost when we accelerated up to 170mph, and we took the left hand bend almost alongside the Ferrari. Some time later, after the race Castellotti asked me about that incident, because it had puzzled him how Stirling had made up so much ground on braking. When I explained it was my responsibility to signal to Stirling the Italian shook his head in disbelief and said he could never have relied on a “navigator’ like that."

So Moss certainly couldn't have done it alone, but I don't think that detracts from the achievement.

Edited by Manatee on 22/11/2020 at 13:35

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - John Boy

www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/nov/22/lewis-hamilt...l

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Steveieb
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Gerry Sanderson

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis Hamilton - Steveieb

Steve please address me as Sir Lewis in future.........

dvd

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - alan1302
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?

Why do you think there is a reluctance from the government?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Avant

He's already an MBE. Let's see what happens in the New Year honours.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Bromptonaut
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?

Is there any reluctance?

He'd need to be nominated and there's 'due process' by which nominations are backed up, seconded if you like. In the current media etc world there'd also probably be some discrete investigation that, albeit he's perfectly entitled to live as an expat (and might be expected to in a globetrotting profession) he's not bending any rules.

The other Knights of Motor Racing (Stewart, Brabham and Moss) only received the award after they retired. Hamilton may be different give his besting/equalling Schumaker but even then there may be a wait.

And of course h could always say 'thanks but no thanks' if he doesn't want the inevitable furore.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - John F
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?

Probably because, unlike other sporty knights, racing drivers don't compete on a level playing field. Although racing cars are scrutinised to a certain degree of homogeneity, there are significant differences between them. Bats, racquets, balls and tracks are much the same for everyone. If he had been driving for Williams it would probably be a very different story. If a knighthood is to be awarded to a Brit for services to motor racing I think someone like James Allison would be a far more deserving candidate.....but then this country seriously undervalues backroom engineering......e.g. why aren't we making turbines for the north sea?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - alan1302
e.g. why aren't we making turbines for the north sea?

Is that the best place for them?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - madf
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?

He's not white

He did not go to Eton

He did not go to Oxford or Cambridge

He was not privately educated.

He's richer and more famous than anyone in the Government.

He has not caught Covid

He thinks we are < rude word associated with cabers?

He is younger ,slimmer and better looking than us.

We cannot tell him what to do.

He's not white.

He did not go to Eton..

We are > < rude word associated with cabers?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - nick62

The successful England Rugby Union team boss Clive Woodward was knighted in the New Year's Honours List 39 days after the November 22nd victory in 2003.

But then again Rugby Union was traditionally played by "professional people" who were generally not educated at the local comp.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Steveieb
There again Lewis s success has been more consistent than Mo Farreh and less controversial.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Bromptonaut
There again Lewis s success has been more consistent than Mo Farreh and less controversial.

Consistency is arguable; different sports/skills.

What has Mo done that's controversial?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - madf
There again Lewis s success has been more consistent than Mo Farreh and less controversial.

Consistency is arguable; different sports/skills.

What has Mo done that's controversial?

Associated with a coach whose athletes took performance enhancing drugs

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - nick62
There again Lewis s success has been more consistent than Mo Farreh and less controversial.

Despite being wealthy beyond comprehension, he did circumvent a £3.3M VAT bill by registering/importing a private jet via the Isle of Man.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - John F
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?

He's not white He did not go to Eton

He did not go to Oxford or Cambridge. He was not privately educated.

He's richer and more famous than anyone in the Government. He has not caught Covid

He thinks we are < rude word associated with cabers?

He is younger ,slimmer and better looking than us. We cannot tell him what to do.

Compare his profile with Kelly Holmes (who is of similar black/whiteness to LH) who competed on a level playing field, served her country both before and after her sporting career, and who received a well deserved sporting damehood. LH's career has been solely one of very well paid self-indulgence to date. To receive a knighthood would only add to the feeling that the British honours system is progressing beyond a national joke towards being a national embarrassment.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Middleman

Despite being wealthy beyond comprehension, he did circumvent a £3.3M VAT bill by registering/importing a private jet via the Isle of Man.

And good luck to him. Everybody, regardless of their wealth, has an absolute duty to minimise the amount of tax they pay and should do so by any legitimate means open to them. LH is among the top 5,000 taxpayers in the UK. Nobody in their right mind pays tax if they can avoid it and if you have a lot of money, you will be charged a lot of tax if you simply leave it up to the taxman. So you have to work harder to keep it from him. This means taking advantage of schemes which people with less money do not need to use.

I think the best thing to happen would be for Lewis to be offered a K and simply but politely turn it down. He has no need of it and it's only now being considered because the media keep going on about it.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - _
Back to Hamulton, can someone explain the reluctance of the government to award Hamilton the knighthood ?

He's not white

He did not go to Eton

He did not go to Oxford or Cambridge

He was not privately educated.

He's richer and more famous than anyone in the Government.

He has not caught Covid

He thinks we are < rude word associated with cabers?

He is younger ,slimmer and better looking than us.

We cannot tell him what to do.

He's not white.

He did not go to Eton..

We are > < rude word associated with cabers?

Is this comment a joke.? The alleged racism "because he is not white" horrifies me.

By all means give him a Knighthood, WHEN he retires.

Till then cut out the carping about Eton, etc etc.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Steveieb

Let’s hope that Red Bulls bid to buy the Honda engine and develop it even further will put an end to Mercedes domination of the sport.
It looks like no one can match Mercedes F1 budget and with Hamilton as their lead driver the season is going to continue with no surprises and fewer and fewer followers.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Steveieb

Well it’s official. It’s now Sir Lewis Hamilton !

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Sofa Spud

Well it’s official. It’s now Sir Lewis Hamilton !

Congratulations to Sir Lewis.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Ethan Edwards

Mr Hamilton is a talented driver.

Couldn't care less if he was 50pct purple.

I don't agree with uk honours for uk tax avoiding exiles . Unless they are lesser awards for foreign nationals.

In the event we ever meet. It'll be a very frosty day in Heck before I use his "honourific". It's Mr Hamilton end of.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - alan1302

Mr Hamilton is a talented driver.

Couldn't care less if he was 50pct purple.

I don't agree with uk honours for uk tax avoiding exiles . Unless they are lesser awards for foreign nationals.

In the event we ever meet. It'll be a very frosty day in Heck before I use his "honourific". It's Mr Hamilton end of.

How do you know he avoids UK tax?

He does have property in London.

If you were a global F1 driver and could live anywhere would you stay here and pay a lot of tax?

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Manatee

According to this article in the Daily Mail he is (or has been) in the UK's top 5,000 tax payers.

www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-76489...l

Does that make a difference?

There are plenty of "establishment" people with honours and offshore trust funds or non-dom status. Am I right in thinking Sir Jackie Stewart, knighted in 2001 for services to Motorsport, has been a non-dom since 1968? To be fair he does some 'good works', but perhaps Hamilton does some of that too.

I don't particularly agree with the present honours system anyway, nor do I think internet campaigns should dictate who gets them, but Hamilton seems as appropriate a recipient as most.

I always thought Surtees was unfairly overlooked. I liked him, partly on the basis of a couple of encounters with him in his later life, but he did have a reputation for being 'difficult' or at least uncompromising.

www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/john-surt...l

Edited by Manatee on 01/01/2021 at 12:07

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Avant

Agreed. We have to remember that most sportspeople have a fairly short time at the top, so they need to provide for the rest of their life. I wouldn't blame them for taking advantage of the tax-saving opportunities that are available within the law (and I don't think anyone is suggesting that Lewis Hamilton is doing anything illegal).

Anyone who doesn't like it should direct their ire towards the governments that allow the loopholes to happen.

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Middleman

We have to remember that most sportspeople have a fairly short time at the top, so they need to provide for the rest of their life.

Maybe but not necessarily. When I was a little younger (!) there was a newsagents/tobacconists shop at the end of my road in North London. Proudly on the shop front was emblazoned "Bryn Jones ex-a***nal and Wales". The shop was about a mile or so from Highbury Stadium:

Bryn Jones : a***nal (spartacus-educational.com)

Then there is this chap:

Reg Tricker: came from India, signed by Chapman, moved on to Margate. | The History of a***nal (woolwicha***nal.co.uk)

I had a close association with Reg Tricker as he was the Head of PE at my school in Islington. He was a very good PE teacher (at a very good school) and an extremely modest man. I didn't know until many years after I had left school that he was a professional footballer and in fact had played for a***nal.

So it seems footballers don't have their legs chopped off when they retire from the game :-)

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Middleman

Unfortunately the link to the page on Reg Tricker will not work because of the filth filter. You can fill in the *** yourself if you want. Here's the Wiki page which gives slightly less information:

Reg Tricker - Wikipedia

The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - mcb100
I’m all for LH receiving a knighthood, but I’ve never really gone for the bit about sportspeople having to make enough to cover for an early retirement from their sport.
What’s to stop them doing what the rest of us do and work until retirement age? Being a footballer or F1 driver doesn’t somehow bar you from doing something else for 30 years. If I remember rightly, most of the 1966 World Cup winning team went on to normal jobs. I think Sir Geoff Hurst sold insurance.
The worlds most successful F1 Driver - Lewis HamiltonAs the end of the road came into view we saw th - Manatee

>>sportspeople having to make enough to cover for an early retirement

Bit of a red herring I think when it comes to high earning professional sports stars.

I don't have a problem with successful citizens who are seen to have done credit to the country being honoured, although I think philanthropy and working for society are the best justification.

And I don't mean philanthropy towards political parties. Perhaps donors might be a necessity, but being one should if anything be a bar to political nominations.

The niggle is there are literally millions who do good things for others every day, many of whom aren't having the most comfortable lives themselves. I know there are community nominated BEM's but they are really overshadowed by the awarding of knighthoods etc to people who have frequently been well rewarded in financial terms and are already very well recognised.

As long as honours based on a subjective process exist there will be arguments about who deserves them.