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Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Pinstripe

One of our cars is an Astra mk6 1.4T 140.

The manual says 95 octane recommended, 91 and 98 possible.

I'm struggling to think why it wouldn't run better on 98 (or other higher octane fuel).

Yes, it's possibly mapped for 95 but with 200Nm at 1850rpm that's a lot more stress/compression (almost double) compared to its naturally aspirated equivalent which is also recommended to run on 95.

Surely the 1.4T is going to be far more prone to engine knock than the naturally aspirated version, therefore surely if using higher octane it would not need to pull back the ignition timing as much or as often.

If I'm wrong in suspecting it might run better on 98, please explain why.

Thanks,

P

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - elekie&a/c doctor
Some info here. www.commaoil.com/files/synerx/BRA3072_COMMA_TECH_T...f
Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - 72 dudes

So reading the attachment doc has supplied.... changing your fuel to Super 98 will have no effect but changing your oil might. From a manufacturer of oils. H'mm.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - mcb100

I read that as stressing the importance of using the correct oil, always good advice.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - craig-pd130

So reading the attachment doc has supplied.... changing your fuel to Super 98 will have no effect but changing your oil might. From a manufacturer of oils. H'mm.

There was a problem with low-speed preignition on the early GM 1.4T engines, which was addressed by upgrading the Vauxhall / GM recommended oil spec to 'Dexos1.'

I believe the GM 1.0T suffered badly with pinking, the 1.4 much less so but the Dexos 1 oil spec is still required.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - RT

So reading the attachment doc has supplied.... changing your fuel to Super 98 will have no effect but changing your oil might. From a manufacturer of oils. H'mm.

There was a problem with low-speed preignition on the early GM 1.4T engines, which was addressed by upgrading the Vauxhall / GM recommended oil spec to 'Dexos1.'

I believe the GM 1.0T suffered badly with pinking, the 1.4 much less so but the Dexos 1 oil spec is still required.

It must be a perverse connection between pre-ignition within the fuel system and the oil specification within the lubrication system, normally kept apart.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - craig-pd130

It must be a perverse connection between pre-ignition within the fuel system and the oil specification within the lubrication system, normally kept apart.

Not really, oil is spread by the oil control rings onto the cylinder walls as the piston rises and falls. If that oil atomises under compression - especially with high compression pressures in the cylinder - there's a risk of pre-ignition.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - RT

It must be a perverse connection between pre-ignition within the fuel system and the oil specification within the lubrication system, normally kept apart.

Not really, oil is spread by the oil control rings onto the cylinder walls as the piston rises and falls. If that oil atomises under compression - especially with high compression pressures in the cylinder - there's a risk of pre-ignition.

Very little oil gets into the cylinder - otherwise oil consumption would be excessive.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Pinstripe

So reading the attachment doc has supplied.... changing your fuel to Super 98 will have no effect but changing your oil might. From a manufacturer of oils. H'mm.

There was a problem with low-speed preignition on the early GM 1.4T engines, which was addressed by upgrading the Vauxhall / GM recommended oil spec to 'Dexos1.'

I believe the GM 1.0T suffered badly with pinking, the 1.4 much less so but the Dexos 1 oil spec is still required.

This engine is not the same engine that gave so much trouble a few years ago.

This one is port-injected, engine code A14NET or B14NET and pre-dates the troublesome direct-injected B14XFT in the Astra mk7.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Andrew-T

I thought that most modern ECUs were able to detect the behaviour of fuel and correct any ignition errors automatically ? There's probably little point in getting anything 'better' than 95 octane unless your car can't cope. You certainly won't find any consumption improvement to justify the extra cost of 98.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - skidpan

We have had 2 VAG 1.4 TSI's (140 and 150 PS) and have just bought an iV which uses the same engine.

They have had 250 Nm of torque (more than your Astra but VAG specify 95 RON for normal use. They "suggest" that using 98 RON "may" increase power and improve consumption but since all the car have run perfectly on 95 RON and I have never heard or read about any issues why would I spend more.

We also have a VAG 1.0 TSi 110 PS. This car has 200 Nm of torque (same as your Astra) yet VAG do not mention 98 RON anywhere in the documentation etc.

If they needed it your manufacturer would say you "MUST" use 98 RON. Only manufacturers of top end very powerful cars do this.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Pinstripe

If they needed it your manufacturer would say you "MUST" use 98 RON. Only manufacturers of top end very powerful cars do this.

But why don't manufacturers also recommend 95 octane for powerful cars? Why not keep it simple and cheap for everyone?

If anything, a powerful car's engine will be less stressed and using very little boost/compression most of the time compared to a smaller engine.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Pinstripe

I thought that most modern ECUs were able to detect the behaviour of fuel and correct any ignition errors automatically ?

But by 'correcting', my understanding is that the car retards ignition timing (increasing fuel consumption and reducing power) and dumps in lots of extra fuel late in the cycle to try to cool things down (also increasing fuel consumption).

If the ECU is having to 'correct' then surely it's having to make corrections away from the most economical way to run.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Bromptonaut

There are all sorts of hypotheticals here. I think 'super cars' that need 98 octane are a bit of a rabbit hole. Way back in the seventies some large engines, like the Rover 3500, needed 5 star leaded fuel.

95 Octane is standard in the UK (but super in some EU countries) and one would expect 'cooking' cars to run on it. The only way to find out if your car runs better on 98 is to use it brim/brim for a few tanks full, recording mileage etc. and compare with similar results on 95.

FWIW I used 98 once in my Fabia as the tab on the fuel filler says 'Super' but upon further investigation this proved to be 95

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Andrew-T

<< If the ECU is having to 'correct' then surely it's having to make corrections away from the most economical way to run. >>

Maybe it would make more sense to read 'optimise' instead of 'correct'. The ECU will be adjusting all the time if working properly. I guess 'economy' will be affected most by the way you drive.

Edited by Andrew-T on 16/11/2020 at 11:43

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Pinstripe

<< If the ECU is having to 'correct' then surely it's having to make corrections away from the most economical way to run. >>

Maybe it would make more sense to read 'optimise' instead of 'correct'. The ECU will be adjusting all the time if working properly. I guess 'economy' will be affected most by the way you drive.

So why not build performance cars to run on cheaper 95?

Why are we bothering with highly refined fuel if we can just program a computer to 'compensate'?

Something like a 1.0T 140 ecoboost is producing similar hp/litre to a Golf R or BMW 140i, therefore just as highly stressed and more likely to be needing to run closer to its limits than a more relaxed 2.0T or 3.0T.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - moward

What has the stresses in the various subcomponents of the engine got to do with the combined swept volume of the cylinders? Nothing would be my opinion. A 1.0 turbo engine where the conrods, gudgeon pins, piston crowns, crank shaft etc etc are sized correctly to the anticipated loading is no more stressed than any other engine regardless of displacement.

Back to the topic at hand, An engine may be designed to “tolerate” RON95, which is not to say that it runs optimally on it. In my own experience, I feel that the low speed operation of my engine improves, when running on 98 vs 95 (Mazda Skyactiv G 165, admittedly an NA engine, but one with high compression), just has that little bit more urgency down low. I wish this was simply placebo effect, as I would rather like to spend less on fuel, but the butt dyno doesn’t lie :-)

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Pinstripe

What has the stresses in the various subcomponents of the engine got to do with the combined swept volume of the cylinders? Nothing would be my opinion.

I meant the stress of the air-fuel mixture when compressed in the cylinders.

The 1.0T is far more likely to be needing to use boost (high in-cylinder pressure, more likely to knock or pre-ignite) compared to a larger engine such as a 2.0 or 3.0 which might not need to spool at all to keep up with the flow of traffic.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - moward

Brake mean effective pressure inside the engine cylinder is typically around 150 psi for a N/A petrol engine. I remember reading previously that Fords 1.0 Ecoboost for example, could run BMEP at around 350 psi. The cylinder pressure is higher, but the surface area of the piston crown is smaller vs an equivalent power larger displacement NA engine, which has lower in cylinder pressure, but a larger surface area to react it on. The outcome Is that the force transmitted into the conrods below may not be all that different.

Steel conrods (assuming low alloy steel AISI 4340) would have an allowable tensile/compressive yield strengths of over 200,000 psi, three whole orders of magnitude higher than the gas pressures inside the cylinders. Unless the con rod cross section is really really tiny, stresses across it due to gas pressure loads are not huge. Inertia loads as the piston is accelerated up and down the cylinder are much more significant.

Steel, like titanium alloys, have an endurance limit below which an infinite number of stress cycles can be applied without causing fatigue damage (typically around half of tensile strength for steels). Conrods are almost certainly designed so that this is the case. Engines can expect to go through 100’s of millions of revolutions over their operating lifespan without fatiguing to pieces. Aluminium doesn’t regrettably have an endurance limit so alloy conrods are only really suitable for race engines, where the lighter weight matters more than longevity.

I guess the point I’ve laboured on is that provided that an engine is designed correctly (and I trust my colleagues over in this industry), a turbo’d engine is no more stressed (and by stress, I mean mechanical) than a larger N/A engine, its all in how the bits are sized for their loads. Now thermal loading and cooling is another kettle of fish and one that I’m not particularly au fait with, maybe someone else on here could comment?

Many thanks for the discussion.

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - Big John

Back in the day when I used to tune the Essex V6 3.0 engine I ran on higher octane petrol which back in the day was usually 4 star (which I think was 98 RON). Ignoring the various other things I did to engines (carb, cam, porting, pistons/conrods, vernier cam timing etc) - one of them was to advance the ignition as far as was possible to just avoid pinking and the performance increase was noticeable, although if you then put 2 star petrol in it things didn't go so well at all!

Fast forward to 2020 with engine management, fuel injection etc then clearly the effect of higher octane petrol depends on how this is programmed and other things such as compression ratios etc. If the engine management incorporates as anti knock sensor and advances the ignition as part of the mapping or already has advanced ignition timing (some primitive engine remaps have this!) then higher octane petrol MAY make a difference if NOT then there will be no real difference.

With my 2006 Fiat Panda 1.2 it makes no difference whatsoever, with my 2014 Skoda Superb 1.4tsi it does improve performance slightly but makes no difference in MPG (was able to check the history of Spritmonitor). On the fuel flap of my Skoda Superb it does say "Min 95 RON"

Edited by Big John on 16/11/2020 at 13:47

Astra mk6 1.4T 140 - Octane Requirement - mcb100

If your concern is over longevity, the engine type will have done hundreds of hours on a test bed at full load/full throttle on all fuel types with the turbo glowing bright red before it sees the road.