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Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Engineer Andy

I'm not sure whether this issue specifically pertains to my gen-1 Mazda3 (or my car specifically), 'older' cars that don't have all the fancy electronics or hybrid systems current ones do, but I'd thought I'd ask this anyway:

My car tends to go through batteries in about 4-5 years. About average for a car, however, I wondered if this could be stretched by some means other than taking it out for a spin more often.

Whilst in recent years, I've done a low annual mileage (only 2,000 - 5,000 miles), 95%+ of that is made up of regular runs of 10-15 miles each way to a nearby town (shopping trips) plus often two weeks driving down to the West Country for holiday (up to 1000 miles) and the occasional 35 mile each way visit to my parents. All on decent speed roads.

This means the car currently sits idle quite a bit, but I tend to deliberately use it more often when the weather is cold/damp in winter (once a week) and less so in summer (once a fortnight). I almost never do short trips from cold.

Other than using it more, is there any benefit in, say, turning the headlights on for a reasonable time during the trips even if the conditions don't warrant it, because it forces the alternator to charge the battery? When I've needed to use the car to commute and done around the 7-10,000 miles pa, the battery hasn't lasted any longer, despite me using it 5 days a week for decent length trips.

I did hear *somewhere* (I can't remember where) someone saying that normal driving without a big current draw (such as the lights) may not automatically get the alternator topping up the battery. When my last battery failed in the summer, the RAC man checked the alternator and found it to be working fine.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - RT

I'd suggest a decent smart charger, one that has a "desulphating" cycle, used every 3 months and allowed to run through it's sequence of cycles - CTEK is the obvious choice but cheaper smart chargers from Aldi/Lidl now seem to have those sort of mode cycles.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Engineer Andy

I'd suggest a decent smart charger, one that has a "desulphating" cycle, used every 3 months and allowed to run through it's sequence of cycles - CTEK is the obvious choice but cheaper smart chargers from Aldi/Lidl now seem to have those sort of mode cycles.

Unfortunately not an option for me, as I live in a flat, unless there's a type of unit that can be left by itself (i.e. it has its own battery pack and thus not connected to the mains) for a week and then taken inside to recharge and then put back under the shut bonnet.

I probably should've mentioned about my home in the original post. Apologies for the oversight.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 10/11/2020 at 14:23

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - elekie&a/c doctor
4-5 years is a pretty good term on a battery. Don’t think you are going to do much to improve that . Always buy the best quality product that you can afford. Maintain the battery by keeping the terminals clean and tight and also keep the top of the battery dry . It’s possible to get voltage leak across the connectors on a damp surface . The charging system on your car may be smarter than you think . On many Mazda models , the generator charging system is controlled from the engine management unit .
Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Engineer Andy
4-5 years is a pretty good term on a battery. Don’t think you are going to do much to improve that . Always buy the best quality product that you can afford. Maintain the battery by keeping the terminals clean and tight and also keep the top of the battery dry . It’s possible to get voltage leak across the connectors on a damp surface . The charging system on your car may be smarter than you think . On many Mazda models , the generator charging system is controlled from the engine management unit .

I wasn't sure whether some 'easy win' type thing could be done to make them last a bit longer. I'll keep an eye on the battery for the dampness issuem but I don't recall anything being amiss before with the previous ones.

I'm always on the lookout for dodgy electric circuits like the boot light being on with the lid closed. My car also doesn't have an alarm as it was a Euro-import and thus only has an immobiliser.

Oddly enough, my parents' 08 plate Fiesta 1.25 (the mid 2000s shape) had a new battery after the original went just around New Year - i.e. it had lasted 11 years - and for a car that mainly does short trips to their local shops of 1-2 miles twice a week and the occasional longer (not that much longer) journey once or twice a month.

I was expecting their batteries to be very short-lived. The type of driving pattern never seemed to make much difference with mine.

The new battery in mine is a slightly higher capacity Bosch unit than the Mazda OEM one it replaced, so maybe this one will do better.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Andrew-T
4-5 years is a pretty good term on a battery. Don’t think you are going to do much to improve that .

I find this surprising. Is there much more electrical drain on modern cars ? I have only owned one 21st-century car (the present 2008 Pug) and I can't remember when any car last needed a new battery (tho as I have said, I am waiting for this 12-year-old one to give up). It must be about 30 years. Am I just lucky ?

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - John F
4-5 years is a pretty good term on a battery. Don’t think you are going to do much to improve that .

I find this surprising. Is there much more electrical drain on modern cars ?

Depends on the car. My Audi A8 is like a live thing, constantly alert for the approach of a key fob, checking itself every so often for the correct level and directing air to a strut if necessary. I had to replace its expensive battery in June 2014, only a month after I bought it. (Not a good start!). Then it failed again in Sep 2015 but Halfords replaced it without question. Since then it's been fine - I think the previous one was a dud. But I regularly charge it because these days it often lies idle for a week or more. In contrast, the last time I replaced the battery in our Ford Focus was in May 2006! And the TR7's dates from April 2007, but I disconnect that after every infrequent journey, so it hardly gets used at all. When it comes to batteries it's probably worth paying a bit more for a quality item.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - elekie&a/c doctor
Biggest issue I’ve seen with batteries, is related to those cars fitted with stop/start systems. These very often fail before the end of the cars warranty period. The battery may not have completely expired, but their reduced performance does not allow the s/s system to operate. Another money spinner with costs of a replacement usually well over £150 .
Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - FP

Regarding stop-start systems, it's worth remembering that they don't all work in the same way.

As has been observed elsewhere on this forum, the modern Mazda system hardly involves the battery at all. Electricity is stored in a large condenser and this powers anything that needs to be kept "on" when the car's engine stops automatically.

Re-start scarcely involves the battery at all; the internals of the engine stop at a predetermined position and it's mostly the ignition of fuel that turns it over, with minimal help from the starter.

The above applies to petrol models; I have no idea how stop-start works with diesels.

My CX-5 is now in its seventh year, still on the original battery.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - galileo
4-5 years is a pretty good term on a battery. Don’t think you are going to do much to improve that .

I find this surprising. Is there much more electrical drain on modern cars ? I have only owned one 21st-century car (the present 2008 Pug) and I can't remember when any car last needed a new battery (tho as I have said, I am waiting for this 12-year-old one to give up). It must be about 30 years. Am I just lucky ?

Averaging about 6600 miles a year, mix of shortish local runs and 200+ motorway runs, I have replaced the original battery on my 70,00 mile i30 just after its 11th birthday. It was just beginning to hesitate on the first start of the day.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Andrew-T
4-5 years is a pretty good term on a battery. Don’t think you are going to do much to improve that .

I find this surprising. Is there much more electrical drain on modern cars ? I have only owned one 21st-century car (the present 2008 Pug) and I can't remember when any car last needed a new battery (tho as I have said, I am waiting for this 12-year-old one to give up). It must be about 30 years. Am I just lucky ?

UPDATE - my 207's battery started showing signs of real struggle, so I bit the bullet and put it out of its misery today. 12½ years and very nearly 80K miles starting a diesel engine, so I reckon it's done pretty well. 85 quid all-in at the local garage less than 10 mins walk away.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - focussed

I remembered that you live in a flat Andy! How about a small solar panel charger that you could lay on the top of the dashboard? They don't give out much charge current - probably 0.5 amp at best but as trickle charger to keep the battery topped up it might be worth trying.

Buy it from Amazon then if it doesn't work you can send it back and get a refund!

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Engineer Andy

I remembered that you live in a flat Andy! How about a small solar panel charger that you could lay on the top of the dashboard? They don't give out much charge current - probably 0.5 amp at best but as trickle charger to keep the battery topped up it might be worth trying.

Buy it from Amazon then if it doesn't work you can send it back and get a refund!

Perhaps, but one more thing against me is that my flat's allocated parking space is shaded apart from about 30 mins mid morning and for about an hour mid afternoon.

Given my car's lack of a stop-start system, alarm, keyless entry system et al (and I've checked for inside lights being on), it could be some other electrical gremlin, say in the wiring. There is a very small water leak into the boot area - maybe it has damaged some wiring above - not below as I have a Mazda splastic boot liner which effectively is bunded.

I will check on the battery to see if there's any dampness. Then again, others could just be fortunate (including my fellow Mazda car owners here) to get longer life out of theirs.

The RAC man was surprised at the stated capacity of the existing battery - maybe my dealership kept on fitting the wrong one, but I doubt it, given the original lasted about the same time as all the subsequent ones. As the new one is a higher capacity unit (Bosch), it'll be interesting to see how it fairs.

I'm also presuming that owners of larger engine cars (perhaps also diesels, even the 1.6) may need a higher capacity battery and why mine is not allowed to be the jump starter for such vehicles.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 11/11/2020 at 13:40

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - edlithgow

Since your current usage pattern seems fairly infrequent, you could perhaps disconnect a terminal between uses. This'll reduce any parasitic drain and wouldn't be incompatible with a solar charger if directly connected.

MUCH more speculatively, I've wondered if there would be any benefit in putting some capacitance between the battery terrminals. This could perhaps provide some of the initial current to the starter, allowing starting on a slightly tired battery.

Complete battery replacement is practical on a kickstart motorcycle but I THINK this'll require prohibitively pricy supercapacitors for a car, though I've seen Youtubery to the contrary.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

I've also, unfortunately, seen it alleged that the higher instantaneous charging load causes early stator failure

There were quite a lot of lighting capacitors on the dump last week. Probably don't have enough capacity to be useful, but if they are still there I should snag some and check them out.

Thanks for the reminder.

Edited by edlithgow on 11/11/2020 at 05:16

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - skidpan

My Caterham does at best 1500 miles a year, this years I have done just under 1000 miles. The last battery was on the car from spring 2009 to spring 2017, 8 years. The battery before that was on from spring 2005 to spring 2009, only 4 years. Both were quality batteries, an Fiamm and then an Exide (the Exide was a warranty replacement for the Fiamm which failed just days short of its 4 years warranty).

As far as I am concerned the difference was the alternator. From 1988 to 2010 I used Lucas alternators which were not the best and most reliable but the wiring loom on the car etc was terminated for these and when they failed (3 year life on average) at least they were cheap. But they only put out a max of 13.8 volts at all revs which is below the 14,2 to 14.4 of more modern alternators. So in 2010 when the alternator failed yet again I decided to make the change to a Japanese Denso alternator which are smaller, lighter and from the experiences of fellow kit car owners far more reliable. Bought a kit to suit my engine installation and the alternator did about 5 miles before screaming, took it back. They gave me a new one and that lasted 4 miles. Told me it was my fault, I told them I would be contacting Barclaycard, they refunded me there and then.

The next day I had the mobile tyre fitter form up the street for me 4 new tyres and was chatting to him about the alternators. He asked If I remembered the Charade GTTi he used to own and said he still had the alternator off it, minutes later it was in my hands FOC. Made a bracket and sourced a belt the correct length and all seemed well. The voltmeter said 14.4 volts when cold and about 14.1 to 14.2 when hot and over 10 years alter it still does. I donated some money to his kids toy fund.

Some time later I was chatting to a bloke at a race meeting about this and he told me a story about these fake Denso Alternators that had flooded the UK kit car market place. Made of cheese in China and to the trained eye obviously fakes due to the outdated manufacturers name and label style. Looks like I had 2.

During the winter months I take the battery off the car and keep it in the house (downstairs bathroom) and charge it every month or so using my faithful Gunsons smart charger from the 1980's. Leave it on auto at a low amperage for the best part of a day does the trick.

As a bit of insurance I bought another Denso alternator off a Daithatsu as a spare, still in the cupboard.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - edlithgow

Since your current usage pattern seems fairly infrequent, you could perhaps disconnect a terminal between uses. This'll reduce any parasitic drain and wouldn't be incompatible with a solar charger if directly connected.

MUCH more speculatively, I've wondered if there would be any benefit in putting some capacitance between the battery terrminals. This could perhaps provide some of the initial current to the starter, allowing starting on a slightly tired battery.

Complete battery replacement is practical on a kickstart motorcycle but I THINK this'll require prohibitively pricy supercapacitors for a car, though I've seen Youtubery to the contrary.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM

I've also, unfortunately, seen it alleged that the higher instantaneous charging load causes early stator failure

There were quite a lot of lighting capacitors on the dump last week. Probably don't have enough capacity to be useful, but if they are still there I should snag some and check them out.

Thanks for the reminder.

Lighting ballast capacitors. Look quite big but they seem to top out at around 50 microfarads, about the same as a start cap on an electric motor. This probably isn't big enough to be useful, even if I use a lot of them.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - BPL

I have a 2005 Golf which has a parasitic drain which I can't find. I think it is the alarm system not arming. I removed fuses one by one to find this. Modern? cars have a complex shut down sequence which you can see in action if you connect an ammeter in line with the battery lead. My solution was a solar panel and a USB charger for the fag lighter which has a voltage (and current display). I don;'t leave this in but use it to monitor the battery level and charge, recondition or just drive to charge it up. I noticed that whatever the engine revs, headlights etc it sat at 14 V or so. My elderly father in law has a Kia Venga which if you don't slam the tailgate hard will drain the battery in 2 weeks. Drained batterys (< 11.5 V will very soon give up holding a charge). When your first car was a Triumph 1300 with a dynamo and mechanical regulator you don't sweat too much about barreries. It did have both a voltmeter and an ammeter though ha ha

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - bathtub tom

Dynamos and regulators. I remember peeling a bit of card off a fag packet and slipping it under the spring of a voltage regulator to try and extend the life of a tired, old battery. Think all it did was cook the battery.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - edlithgow

and a USB charger for the fag lighter which has a voltage (and current display).

Sounds useful.

How/where does it sense the current?

I'd assume its measuring current through itself (to whatever is plugged into it) rather than alternator output, which would be more interesting but difficult to do.

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - BPL

and a USB charger for the fag lighter which has a voltage (and current display).

Sounds useful.

How/where does it sense the current?

I'd assume its measuring current through itself (to whatever is plugged into it) rather than alternator output, which would be more interesting but difficult to do.

yes just shows Voltage (everywhere!) and Current via the charger. You can get remote ammeters

Dual USB Car Charger - Jebsens Car Voltage Meter Car Charger with Two USB Ports, 4.8A / 24W, LED Display Built-in Safety Protection Fast Charging Compatible with All Smartphones and Tablets

by Alivation UK
Learn more: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01N5I0J92/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_g8sRFb3VZF7Q8?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Getting a car's alternator to charge the battery - Big John

My car tends to go through batteries in about 4-5 years. About average for a car, however, I wondered if this could be stretched by some means other than taking it out for a spin more often.

I did hear *somewhere* (I can't remember where) someone saying that normal driving without a big current draw (such as the lights) may not automatically get the alternator topping up the battery. When my last battery failed in the summer, the RAC man checked the alternator and found it to be working fine.

I think for an older car with a simpler alternator 4-5 years is not far off the mark without doing anything special (like removing it for the winter). I used to think you were doing really well at 6 years.

PRE stop start but inteligent charging sytems could give much longer battery life. Eg My previous 2003 Skoda Superb has only just had its first battery replacement but it did have some inteligence in the charging and an alternator clutch.

Stop start cars seem heavier on the EFB or AGM battery. Possibly beacause of energy regeneration - under some conditions the battery can be overcharged for a while but then not charged under different circumstances. Due to dietary issues I travel on holiday with a cool box plugged into a permanately live 12v socket but with a Volton split relay that disconnects the coolbox when the voltage drops after the engine is turned off. When I first used this in my latest stop/start car you could sometimes hear the cool box shutting down after a distance. I've since discovered that if I drive with the headlights on this never happens. Saying that my 2014 Superb stop/start is still on its original battery - tempting fate or what!

Edited by Big John on 12/11/2020 at 21:18