EV versus PHEV | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

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Wed 30 Sep 2020 18:06

EV versus PHEV - Avant

As some of you know, I'm building a shortlist, in a fairly unhurried way, of possible replacements next spring for my Audi Q2 which will be three years old next April.

(In answer to the reasonable suggestion 'keep the Q2 long-term' - I'm not convinced about the reliabilty of VAG cars over 3 years old, although it's been impeccable so far; and also it would be good to do one's bit for the environment, even if a very small bit.)

For an average 12,000 miles a year involving regular 8-15-mile return trips within rural Dorset, and 200-250-mile return trips on average twice a month, a PHEV seemed the obvious answer - electric power for the short runs, petrol for the long trips with no range anxiety. The BMW X1, Ford Kuga, and forthcoming Skoda Octavia PHEV (impressions based on the Superb that I tried) are the most impressive so far.

But having recently tried a Hyundai Kona Electric, last week, and a Kia E-Niro this morning, pure EVs have a lot more going for them than I'd thought. Both of these can go at least 250 miles on a charge, and that can if needed be eked out a little further if you don't rush and you use regenerative braking. Both have terrific acceleration even in Normal mode, and the Kia in particular has a very good ride/handling balance, better than the Kona.

Both EVs and PHEVs cost more than their petrol equivalents. It seems to me that it'll take forever for the slightly lower fuel costs of a PHEV to compensate, whereas an EV will cost quite a bit less to run if I get a wallbox and shop around for a suitable tariff. And we have a petrol car as well, the A3 convertible, which can do any really long journeys.

I found the E-Niro very persuasive this morning, both as an EV and as a car that was good to drive. It helped that the excellent Kia dealer in Mere (Wilts) let me have it for the whole morning. SWMBO was working from home but came out for a spin in it and was also impressed. Definitely one to think about - and perhaps even to order later this year if nothing else impresses.

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Wed 30 Sep 2020 18:37

EV versus PHEV - _

I had a Niro a couple of years back for a morning while the Venga was being tended to.

Impressed is the word.

Have you looked at the MG5 estate?some stonking lease deals on them, and hopefully no bugs...... A good range too!

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Wed 30 Sep 2020 18:45

EV versus PHEV - nellyjak

Interesting......up until quite recently I would seen the PHEV as a no brainer...I think I still do...but only just.

The progress on EV's has gathered pace considerably and range anxiety is perhaps not as big a concern as it once was.

I'm not anywhere near considering a change of vehicle but when/if I do I think I will look at EV's in greater depth..and by then they will have improved even more.

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 12:18

EV versus PHEV - Engineer Andy

I know Avant that I bang the proverbial drum (though never for diesels) for Mazda, but have you considered a CX-30 2.0 SkyActiv-X as a non-EV/plug in hybrid replacement? Similar size, and more oomph than the standard SA-G 2L engine with better fuel economy? Admitedly it does still need a decent amount of right foot to get the performance (0-60 in about 8.2 - 8.5sec). Also available in smooth (reliable) TC auto and 4WD.

Not cheap new, I grant you, but you may find some reasonable deals of showroom/courtesy cars on low mileage. As per usual, I'd also advise getting one shod on 16in rims rather than 18in ones for better ride quality/kerbing protection/costs, meaning it may need a swap-out before or after the purchase (I think they do fit, but check).

At least you wouldn't have to worry so much about having to shift it after 3 years like a VAG (especially if you bought an auto). If you did consider one, find a good dealer, especially on the post-sales side.

The similar MX-30 is probably just as good to drive but doesn't offer the range of the other cars - I think it's about the 125 mile mark, which is a shame.

KIA does still seem a good choice though - I'm getting more impressed by the day with their lineup (oddly enough, not so much from Hyundai - though more a styling thing than anything else), especially the stytlish Ceed and X-Ceed. The estate version of the former is, to me, a better-looking version of the Niro.

Maybe they had to differentiate it because of the suspension requirements of the hybrd/EV batteries. The Hyundai Ioniq is nice looking on the outside, but far less practical, plus the shorter warranty.

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 14:44

EV versus PHEV - badbusdriver

Given you are in no particular hurry to change Avant, maybe have a look at the upcoming VW id4?. This will be to the id3 as the Tiguan is to the Golf, i.e, a slightly bigger more SUV/crossover version. What I have read suggests a range of up to 310 miles for the biggest battery option.

The EV versions of the Kia Niro and Hyundai Kona certainly seem to be going some way towards convincing many that range anxiety needn’t be a big worry. And they also seem to be capable of matching the quoted range, in fact I’m sure I’ve read that driven with a little care and restraint, you could actually exceed the range!. Horses for courses and all, but personally, I’m not fan of the Kona’s looks.

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 17:08

EV versus PHEV - S40 Man

In terms of environmental impact not ordering a new car might not actually be the best option. All cars and especially electric PHEV or full EV use a lot of energy and resources to make.

Consequently a new one will have a big global impact, even if it is better for local pollution, air quality etc.

The car you have now has already had the impact of manufacture. Sure it will use more fossil fuel in daily use and have a greater impact on air quality than an EV but the overall benefit might be negligible if any benefit at all.

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 17:45

EV versus PHEV - misar

As Avant is not in a hurry this Mazda may be of interest when it gets its promised range-extender rotary engine.

www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/mazda/mx-30/first-dri...w

Edited by misar on 01/10/2020 at 17:47

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 18:05

EV versus PHEV - Zippy123

This Skoda, coming next year, looks interesting...

www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/new-cars/2020-09/2021-sk.../

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 18:43

EV versus PHEV - mcb100

Edited by mcb100 on 01/10/2020 at 18:48

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 18:50

EV versus PHEV - mcb100

In terms of environmental impact not ordering a new car might not actually be the best option. All cars and especially electric PHEV or full EV use a lot of energy and resources to make.

Consequently a new one will have a big global impact, even if it is better for local pollution, air quality etc.

The car you have now has already had the impact of manufacture. Sure it will use more fossil fuel in daily use and have a greater impact on air quality than an EV but the overall benefit might be negligible if any benefit at all.

Absolutely - the most environmentally friendly car is the one you already own.

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 19:14

EV versus PHEV - Engineer Andy

In terms of environmental impact not ordering a new car might not actually be the best option. All cars and especially electric PHEV or full EV use a lot of energy and resources to make.

Consequently a new one will have a big global impact, even if it is better for local pollution, air quality etc.

The car you have now has already had the impact of manufacture. Sure it will use more fossil fuel in daily use and have a greater impact on air quality than an EV but the overall benefit might be negligible if any benefit at all.

Absolutely - the most environmentally friendly car is the one you already own.

Yes and no - it depends very much upon:

How many miles you drive over the car's life and what type of driving that is (urban, motorway, etc etc). They are currently a waste of money and effort for anyone doing average to low mileages. Yes, they will help local pollution issues, but depending on the next category, they might just push that polution elsewhere;

Where you live and which energy firm you use, as well as other recharging sources for EVs - some countries, locations (charging points) and energy firms use quite a different mix of energy sources to generate electricity - some more environmnetally friendly (or should I say less impactfull) than others, and it isn't easy to determine which is best.

The environmental inpact (good [less generation by other sources] and bad [what they are made of/mining/manufacturing, etc]) of using home PV panels (or at your place of business).

Plus, of course, the difference between makes concerning the mining and manufacturing process, transportation of the finished parts and product to the customer and similar for any other lifetime replacement parts.

I personally won't even contemplate an EV unless I can afford a high quality and output, long-lasting PV generation system, the cars can match or better any ICE petrol car of the same type, they are as reliable long term and the costs to the environment can be absolutely proven to be significantly less than ICE over their lifetime across all types of driving pattern I'd likely drive. That and the charging problems outside of the home I've spoken of on many previous occasions.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 00:10

EV versus PHEV - brum

From a service/maintenance/repair point of view, I think that a PHEV must surely end up being the worst of all worlds after the warranty runs out. Highly complex, greater servicing required than either a simple ICE or EV car, at least twice as many things to go wrong, and when they do could be prohibitively expensive to repair.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 11:35

EV versus PHEV - madf

From a service/maintenance/repair point of view, I think that a PHEV must surely end up being the worst of all worlds after the warranty runs out. Highly complex, greater servicing required than either a simple ICE or EV car, at least twice as many things to go wrong, and when they do could be prohibitively expensive to repair.

Err Not if it's a Toyota Prius

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Thu 1 Oct 2020 23:55

EV versus PHEV - Avant

Many thanks for all the comments. All very helpful.

VW ID. 3 and 4 and Skoda Enyaq - I'd like to see road tests of these and see if worth waiting for. Reports of software problems with the ID.3 aren't encouraging, and if VAG want customers to do their development work for them AGAIN (look at the 1.5 TSI), their reputation really will be up the Swannee. The Octavia PHEV should be well worth a look: the Superb IV is well established and I very much liked the one I tried.

MG 5 and Mazda MX-30 - they will suit people who will never do long trips or use another car, but we do the 200-mile run often enough to want both our cars to be capable of it without having to recharge an EV. The MG 5 and the Peugeot e-2008 are tested in this week's magazines and neither seem brilliant to drive, and both have a poor range.

I can see the logic in cars the size of the Mini Electric and Honda e having small batteries, but for a medium SUV like Mazda's MX-30 it seems strange: why not offer the choice of battery sizes as others do?

I do see the argument that 'the most environmentally friendly car is the one you already own': but for it to have any real force, surely there would have to be a huge and successful public campaign 'Save the planet and don't buy a new car'. If I think about buying, say, an E-Niro, and then my conscience gets the better of me, Kia will still make that E-Niro, and won't make any fewer unless there is a big drop in demand.

Anyway my next car will almost certainly be an EV or a PHEV, and we'll be keeping the other car long-term, so we probably won't come out of that debate too badly.

Edited by Avant on 01/10/2020 at 23:58

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 08:22

EV versus PHEV - mcb100

Yes, 'Save the planet and don't buy a new car' is a theoretical argument in that the world economy would crash if we as a planet stopped buying new cars. I, for one, would be out of work, as would everyone not only in the automotive industry but also the myriad support industries.
The message has to be that if you are going to buy/acquire a new car, please make best efforts to minimise the negative impact it has upon the planet.

Edited by mcb100 on 02/10/2020 at 08:22

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 09:24

EV versus PHEV - Wee Willie Winkie

I am currently waiting on a Tesla Model 3. Well documented quality issues on delivery; Tesla seem to use their customers to PDI their vehicles. Once issues are highlighted they seem to be rectified efficiently.

I ummed and aahed for ages about PHEVs and BEVs but eventually decided to jump in with both feet. Tech is developing so quickly and I believe PHEVs are a passing fad.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 09:26

EV versus PHEV - Andrew-T

Yes, 'Save the planet and don't buy a new car' is a theoretical argument in that the world economy would crash if we as a planet stopped buying new cars. I, for one, would be out of work, as would everyone not only in the automotive industry but also the myriad support industries.

I don't think this argument should be dismissed as 'theoretical'. My view is that the car industry exists primarily to build cars people need (perhaps even want), not primarily to provide jobs. That was the argument that Maggie had to overcome in the days of Arthur Scargill. The fact is that after decades of automation far more people exist than are needed to support continued daily life - that becomes clearer during Covid when so many have to twiddle their thumbs instead of entertaining others in some way.

I'm afraid I dislike the idea of routinely buying a new car because I don't trust the maker to produce one to last more than 3 years without a problem. Meanwhile we look for ways to populate our homes with clever robots. Daft, just a challenge for nerds.

Edited by Andrew-T on 02/10/2020 at 09:28

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 10:53

EV versus PHEV - mcb100

I’m with you on the desire or perceived need to change a car after 3 years because you have concerns about its potential unreliability. I do practice what I preach on this one - my daily driver that gets me up and down the country for work (in non-Covid circumstances) is an 07 registered S-Type Jaguar, whilst if we go out as a family we use my wife’s 56 registered Renault Scenic. I don’t have the slightest qualms about using either. If you want a new car, just go for it. The decision doesn’t need to be justified, it’s an individual’s decision whether or not to put sizeable amounts of money into a depreciating asset. I’m more than happy to see new car sales going through the roof, it’ll get me back in work (eventually), but everyone should be making all efforts to be as environmentally friendly as possible.

Edited by mcb100 on 02/10/2020 at 11:03

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 11:37

EV versus PHEV - pd

Hardly anyone changes their car because of perceived reliability until you get into the bargain bucket sector.

The vast majority do so because of fashion, they are bored with the current one and/or the newer one is seen as being better.

Basically, the same reason people buy a new TV, have a new Kitchen, new Sofa or whatever.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 11:40

EV versus PHEV - Engineer Andy

Many thanks for all the comments. All very helpful.

VW ID. 3 and 4 and Skoda Enyaq - I'd like to see road tests of these and see if worth waiting for. Reports of software problems with the ID.3 aren't encouraging, and if VAG want customers to do their development work for them AGAIN (look at the 1.5 TSI), their reputation really will be up the Swannee. The Octavia PHEV should be well worth a look: the Superb IV is well established and I very much liked the one I tried.

MG 5 and Mazda MX-30 - they will suit people who will never do long trips or use another car, but we do the 200-mile run often enough to want both our cars to be capable of it without having to recharge an EV. The MG 5 and the Peugeot e-2008 are tested in this week's magazines and neither seem brilliant to drive, and both have a poor range.

I can see the logic in cars the size of the Mini Electric and Honda e having small batteries, but for a medium SUV like Mazda's MX-30 it seems strange: why not offer the choice of battery sizes as others do?

I do see the argument that 'the most environmentally friendly car is the one you already own': but for it to have any real force, surely there would have to be a huge and successful public campaign 'Save the planet and don't buy a new car'. If I think about buying, say, an E-Niro, and then my conscience gets the better of me, Kia will still make that E-Niro, and won't make any fewer unless there is a big drop in demand.

Anyway my next car will almost certainly be an EV or a PHEV, and we'll be keeping the other car long-term, so we probably won't come out of that debate too badly.

.

If I were you, if you want to go full-on EV as a long-term buy, then factor in getting a decent sized PV array for your home, because it will go a long way to offset the environmental costs associated with charging the car via the grid (presumably to be at night time a good percentage of time), as well as save you on the ever-increasing bills for electricity.

The payback period of such arrays is generally about the 8-15 year mark, depending on the type, size and installation (e.g. how well it is orientated to the sun, dependent on which direction the roof faces and its pitch angle) of the array.

As regards what Mazda are doing, well, it's 'very Mazda' of them - doing their own thing contrary to what most of the industry is doing - using the rotary engine as a range-extender as well as only one (currently) battery pack size. Hopefully their tie-up with Toyota will rub off on them to at least some of the time go the more conventional route - especially when that is shown to work.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 12:08

EV versus PHEV - Andrew-T

<< if you want to go full-on EV as a long-term buy, then factor in getting a decent sized PV array for your home, because it will go a long way to offset the environmental costs associated with charging the car via the grid. The payback period of such arrays is generally about the 8-15 year mark, >>

We were lucky in deciding to install a 9-panel PV nine years ago. It cost then about £10K but we got the high permanent start-up tariff, which means we pay the Grid about the same as they pay us, so basically we get free leccy. Even if you decide to move house, the tariff is transferable on sale, so the cost of installing should add to the house's value.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 17:02

EV versus PHEV - John F

<< if you want to go full-on EV as a long-term buy, then factor in getting a decent sized PV array for your home, because it will go a long way to offset the environmental costs associated with charging the car via the grid. The payback period of such arrays is generally about the 8-15 year mark, >>

We were lucky in deciding to install a 9-panel PV nine years ago. It cost then about £10K but we got the high permanent start-up tariff, which means we pay the Grid about the same as they pay us, so basically we get free leccy. Even if you decide to move house, the tariff is transferable on sale, so the cost of installing should add to the house's value.

We also were able to take advantage of this generous no-brainer scheme. Our 14 panels cost £10665 in July 2011. By March 2019 they had generated £10717 in tax free payments - money back in fewer than eight years of the twenty five year inflation linked contract. They currently pay over £1,700 per annum which is more than enough for our household fuel and water bills or, as I prefer to think, my, ahem, 'electric' TR7 and Audi W12 sport quattro's petrol bills.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 11:48

EV versus PHEV - SLO76

I’d keep the old one, if it’s a manual. It’s almost certainly better car to drive than any of the Hybrid or pure electric vehicles I’ve ever tried. There’s nothing to fear from a well maintained petrol Audi with a manual box over the longterm, even the diesels are fine if they see regular longer runs. But it’s your dosh, just don’t buy thinking the Audi will be unreliable at this age or in the near future. It’ll still be going in a decade.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 12:12

EV versus PHEV - Trilogy.

I think as Avant can afford to change fairly regularly, he enjoys doing so.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 13:09

EV versus PHEV - SLO76

I think as Avant can afford to change fairly regularly, he enjoys doing so.

He’s quite right to do so too, we need people to spend money to keep us all in a job and it makes for interesting reading too while he searches for another car especially as he’s willing to look at such a spectrum of models. I have however made plenty of cash from folks who believed their cars would become unreliable at 2-3yrs old with 20-30k under their belts and would buy new to avoid trouble but this is logic which dates from the 70’s where cars were generally showing problems and rot early on. Today’s cars are just run in at this age and mileage. I loved the retired buddies who’d saunter into the showroom every 3yrs for a new Colt to avoid any “trouble.” The cars they traded in went on to give trouble free motoring to the next owner or two or three for years to come. But where would the old miseries like me be without someone buying new cars?

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 14:22

EV versus PHEV - Manatee

I'd feel embarrassed to be buying to new car every 3 years but it's probably good that so many people do, to the extent that our economy works as it does - people with money have to spend it or the roundabout stops.

Not that I feel I have a particularly good grasp of how the current hamster wheel could be improved...my instinct is that more taxation and intelligent public spending might help. What I can't grasp is how, with collectively a quarter of the wealth in the 1960's that we have now, we could then afford to run public libraries properly and to build lots of public housing (for example). Yet so many people are employed in 'make work' jobs, my favourite example being those poor souls who dispense coffee using the most inefficient and expensive machines that can be devised for the purpose. At least it extracts their wages from the wealthy idlers drinking the coffee and helps poor farm workers in a distant foreign land.

To the point, the need to reduce the burning of fossil fuels is urgent and EV's can certainly help, provided the increase in electricity production needed can itself be green. PHEV's seem a bit of a red herring to me - I doubt whether the many PHEV's bought as company cars get charged on a regular basis and they are a dead end anyway.

I'm 67, and I may never have an EV unless I live a lot longer than my parents did. We have a 6 year old petrol Roomster and at 5,000 miles per year I hope it will last another 6 years. The four year old Outlander I expect to expect to keep either until I don't need it or it becomes too expensive or inconvenient to run. The MX-5's whole raison d'etre is to be what it is and and electric one would be pointless and very very boring, however quickly it could accelerate.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 14:50

EV versus PHEV - madf

Musk is planning large scale vertical integration including manufacture of batteries and to bring prices down to $25k for a basic Tesla 3..

At the same time Artificial Intelligence is going to transform most manufacturing jobs in the next decade.. I'll be in my 80s then so probably will be driven in an autonomous car - being gaga..

So I plan to do no new car buying: or Jazz will be good for another decade and our Yaris will be a rarity then!

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 15:12

EV versus PHEV - Andrew-T

<< I have however made plenty of cash from folks who believed their cars would become unreliable at 2-3yrs old with 20-30k under their belts and would buy new to avoid trouble but this is logic which dates from the 70’s where cars were generally showing problems and rot early on. Today’s cars are just run in at this age and mileage. >>

My personal experience suggests that worries about early-onset unreliability can be alleviated by more sympathetic maintenance of engines than suggested by the maker, especially diesels. I have changed oil & filter in my 2008 Pug 207 every 8K instead of the advised 12K and had no trouble at all from the 1.6 HDi diesel of doom we hear about. So far no electrical gremlins either. So no dealer has made any cash from me :-)

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 15:56

EV versus PHEV - misar

Modern cars are not less reliable than cars of the past - if anything the opposite. The problem as cars age and decrease in value is the massive parts cost if many key components fail, especially anything electronic or anti-pollution. On top of that the complexity of modern cars and their packed engine bays pushes up the labour cost of most repairs. I remember the days when a new clutch on my Mark 2 Cortina involved a short visit to a drive-in specialist and could be treated as a normal running cost like new tyres.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 15:55

EV versus PHEV - Avant

You've rumbled me, Trilogy! Yes, I do enjoy new cars, and I'm lucky that being semi-retired I'm quite well paid for the work that I do. We don't have extravagant tastes otherwise, so we can be thankful - however incompetent successive poiticians may be - that we live in a society where we're free to make that sort of choice.

I agree, it's hopefully unlikely that the current Q2 will become unreliable any time soon (it has a wet-clutch DSG), although parts are likely to be expensive. But if as I get older I can't or don't want to work, having a car (and keeping it) with lower fuel and maintenance expenses is attractive. It does look as if a pure EV is likely to deliver those economies better than a PHEV, but my mind is still open. If I can get one next year for about the same amount per month as for the Q2, it wll be tempting.

And above all, it's got to be good to drive, while I'm still of an age to enjoy driving.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 16:05

EV versus PHEV - brum

But if as I get older I can't or don't want to work, having a car (and keeping it) with lower fuel and maintenance expenses is attractive. It does look as if a pure EV is likely to deliver those economies better than a PHEV, but my mind is still open. If I can get one next year for about the same amount per month as for the Q2, it wll be tempting.

Don't monthly ?PCP? payments dwarf fuel and maintenance costs?

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 16:19

EV versus PHEV - Falkirk Bairn

If I were to buy a new car it will probably be a 2+ litre petrol, auto (TQ/CVT) - it would be at least 3 years & probably longer since it was 1st available.

3 Cyl Turbo, DSG/Poershift type Gearbox, brandnew model - just too risky & you could end up be the test driver for their development team.

If I were to brave buying a Hybrid it would need to be a Toyota/Lexus/maybe Honda - I would not be going near the add on a wee battery to tell the world you have a Eco Friendly range of cars. Ford have Hybrid issues and I am sure all the recently announced "bolt on battery tech" is not fully understood by the designers and certainly not the retailers..

Would I buy an all electric? Probably not as I do not see we have the generating power now or in the mid term to support all the power demands. Equally the cost is high e.g. Nearly £30K for a Zoe, depreciation steep & the battery failing spells death with replacements costing megabucks

Mind you I am in my mid seventies and rather set in my ways.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 18:57

EV versus PHEV - nellyjak

Mind you I am in my mid seventies and rather set in my ways.

You and me both, young man...lol..and it could well be the vehicle I've got might just be the last one.!...I just love this vehicle and unless it starts misbehaving in some expensive way (it hasn't in the nearly 5 years I've had it) then I don't have any motivation or need to change.

I think I'm being rather "green"

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 16:43

EV versus PHEV - John F

Clearly Avant doesn't want to drive older cars, although I am surprised that someone with his automotive knowledge has concerns about reliability beyond three years. But to get back to the title of the thread, despite the force of fashionable opinion I cannot see that lugging about two types of motors and their energy reservoirs is either economical or environmentally friendly. I think future historians will look back on hybrids as a dead end branch of automotive evolution. As Avant's household has two cars and presumably the facility for a charging point, a pure EV makes most sense, especially as both initial and depreciation costs obviously figure so low down on his priority list.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 17:53

EV versus PHEV - Terry W

I thiink hybrids are a long term dead end.

At present they successfully negate range anxiety and will cover short commute, shopping and social distances on battery. The price paid is extra weight, complexity and cost. As EV range improves and chargng times reduce they will become obselete.

The environmental arguments for EV vs ICE is questionable. Energy used is a function of vehicle weight, aerodynamic efficiency and driving style. EV will typically be somewhat heavier than ICE due to battery weight.. The fundamental issues are:

electricity generated in the UK is fuelled mainly by a mix of wind, solar, nuclear, gas. They each have a very different whole life cycle environmental costs
electricity generated using (say) gas combined cycle is ~ 60% efficient in converting fuel to energy
electricity generated centrally needs a complex distribution network and suffers transmission losses
oil needs refining and transport to fuel stations - probably a lower environmental burden
an ICE engine is ~30% efficient in converting fuel into motion. An electric motor efficiency is 90%+.

Environmental impacts of manufacture is complex - ICE vs EV drivetrains use largely different materials, extraction and refining, end of life recycling.

Balancing the environment impacts of ICE vs EV is thus hugely complex. Assumptions made are critical to the conclusions - essentially you can get the answer you want.

The only certainty is that ICE pollutes at the point of use (in towns etc), and EVs emit where the power is generated.

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 23:06

EV versus PHEV - Andrew-T

EV will typically be somewhat heavier than ICE due to battery weight..

How does the weight of a typical EV motor compare with a corresponding ICE engine with its gubbins - and the weight of the EV battery with a corresponding fuel tank ?

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Fri 2 Oct 2020 23:32

EV versus PHEV - brum

EV will typically be somewhat heavier than ICE due to battery weight..

How does the weight of a typical EV motor compare with a corresponding ICE engine with its gubbins - and the weight of the EV battery with a corresponding fuel tank ?

As a rough comparison taking similar car sizes

Unladen weights

Skoda Superb 1.5tsi (ICE) around 1455kg

Skoda Superb iV (Hybrid) around 1730kg

Skoda Enyaq 80 (EV) around 2117kg

The Skoda Enyaq has allegedly a real world range of 250 miles roughly equivalent to 25 litres of petrol weighing about 19kg. The EV battery weighs 309 kg according to pushevs.com/2020/05/13/volkswagen-meb-details/

Im not sure what the relevance of battery weight vs fuel tank is.

Edited by brum on 03/10/2020 at 00:47

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Sat 3 Oct 2020 08:12

EV versus PHEV - badbusdriver

Im not sure what the relevance of battery weight vs fuel tank is.

Presumably because they do the same thing, a battery is to an EV what a fuel tank is to an ICE car.

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Sat 3 Oct 2020 09:03

EV versus PHEV - John F

Im not sure what the relevance of battery weight vs fuel tank is.

Presumably because they do the same thing, a battery is to an EV what a fuel tank is to an ICE car.

It draws attention to the extra energy expended in carting all that weight around. As Terry W says, it's complex. Especially when one adds into the equation the effects of the likelihood that the battery, unlike the petrol tank, will probably need replacing/recycling after twelve years or so. (The average age of our three cars is 16).

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Sat 3 Oct 2020 09:40

EV versus PHEV - RT

Im not sure what the relevance of battery weight vs fuel tank is.

Presumably because they do the same thing, a battery is to an EV what a fuel tank is to an ICE car.

It draws attention to the extra energy expended in carting all that weight around. As Terry W says, it's complex. Especially when one adds into the equation the effects of the likelihood that the battery, unlike the petrol tank, will probably need replacing/recycling after twelve years or so. (The average age of our three cars is 16).

EV battery degradation is proving better than original forecasts - while a very small number of batteries will have failures necessitating complete replacement, the need to replace a battery due to reduced capacity is unlikely to arise before the vehicle is scrapped conventionally.

In olden days, a petrol engine would need rebuilding at around 50,000 miles but modern ones go much longer so rarely get rebuilt - EV batteries are as reliable as modern petrol engines - as sales increase, it'll be possible to get batteries from scrapyards in the low possibility of needing one.

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Sat 3 Oct 2020 09:37

EV versus PHEV - Andrew-T

I'm not sure what the relevance of battery weight vs fuel tank is.

Presumably because they do the same thing, a battery is to an EV what a fuel tank is to an ICE car.

The point of my earlier query was that while an EV battery will likely weigh more than even a full tank of fuel, that may be offset if the EV motor and transmission are lighter than those in the fuelled car, especially a diesel one ? Brum's data suggest that doesn't happen.

Edited by Andrew-T on 03/10/2020 at 09:39

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Sat 3 Oct 2020 12:39

EV versus PHEV - madf

I'm not sure what the relevance of battery weight vs fuel tank is.

Presumably because they do the same thing, a battery is to an EV what a fuel tank is to an ICE car.

The point of my earlier query was that while an EV battery will likely weigh more than even a full tank of fuel, that may be offset if the EV motor and transmission are lighter than those in the fuelled car, especially a diesel one ? Brum's data suggest that doesn't happen.

An electric vehicle uses approx 3 x the weight of copper in a IC cars...

45 to 185 lbs www.visualcapitalist.com/how-much-copper-is-in-an-.../

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Sun 4 Oct 2020 15:19

EV versus PHEV - Engineer Andy

I think the whole issue - environment-wise - is very much a horses for courses thing. It really does depend on so many variable that what works for one person doesn't for their neighbour, never mind from another part of the country/world.

To be honest, I think the best criteria to go on are:

Cost of ownership over the lifetime of the vehicle;
The cost-benefit of having solar panels on your home's roof;
Car usage pattern and viability (range, charging time/availaibility, etc).

The environmental costs and benefit are so complex and are changing all the time that what might be ok today might not be anywhere near as much, if at all in a few years time.

Best to choose from and operational and finances perspective, as well as the usual driveability/comfort/reliability etc perspective.

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Sun 4 Oct 2020 18:21

EV versus PHEV - sammy1

With ICE and EV you only have one drive train to worry about. With a PHEV you have two. What is the point of these PHEVS. they cost a lot, are far heavier and their green credentials are iffy. What possible savings money wise can you make driving 30 miles on the battery! If you want to help save the planet buy an extended warranty on the Q2

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Sun 4 Oct 2020 18:56

EV versus PHEV - misar

With ICE and EV you only have one drive train to worry about. With a PHEV you have two. What is the point of these PHEVS. they cost a lot, are far heavier and their green credentials are iffy. What possible savings money wise can you make driving 30 miles on the battery! If you want to help save the planet buy an extended warranty on the Q2

An EV is at its best when charging can be done at home (or work) with relatively cheap electricity. Once forced to use commercial charging points the running costs shoot up - in some cases £/mile is similar to an efficient ICE car.

Perhaps Mazda have the right idea with their MX-30. This is on sale as a normal EV with a single drive train and the range extender version will be exactly the same except for the addition of a rotary powered generator. Its 120 mile battery range is fine for commuting and other local uses but saves considerable battery weight compared with Tesla etc. At the same time the extender makes unlimited long trips possible w/o the worry of running out of charge.

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Sun 4 Oct 2020 22:29

EV versus PHEV - brum

There are some signs that electric vehicles are starting to fall out of favour with the public

cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/used-car-prices-fo...4

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Mon 5 Oct 2020 10:36

EV versus PHEV - madf

There are some signs that electric vehicles are starting to fall out of favour with the public

cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/used-car-prices-fo...4

www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/ September shows electric vehicles in all classes have a sales increase, petrol.diesel are falling..

So fake news.

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Mon 5 Oct 2020 09:22

EV versus PHEV - Engineer Andy

With ICE and EV you only have one drive train to worry about. With a PHEV you have two. What is the point of these PHEVS. they cost a lot, are far heavier and their green credentials are iffy. What possible savings money wise can you make driving 30 miles on the battery! If you want to help save the planet buy an extended warranty on the Q2

An EV is at its best when charging can be done at home (or work) with relatively cheap electricity. Once forced to use commercial charging points the running costs shoot up - in some cases £/mile is similar to an efficient ICE car.

Perhaps Mazda have the right idea with their MX-30. This is on sale as a normal EV with a single drive train and the range extender version will be exactly the same except for the addition of a rotary powered generator. Its 120 mile battery range is fine for commuting and other local uses but saves considerable battery weight compared with Tesla etc. At the same time the extender makes unlimited long trips possible w/o the worry of running out of charge.

Do they say how much range extension is provided? BMW did this with their i3 to go from 125 miles to 205 miles (ish) range, so the battery would still need fully recharging once on a long trip or the owner has to endure stopping every 80 miles for fuel.

Given the rotary engine isn't famed for its fuel economy or its reliability (especially when used for short periods), you have to wonder why Mazda thought it a good idea to pair it as a range extender. I'm presuming it also only is an electricity generating unit rather than a motive power one like a PHEV.

The i3 isn't exactly much of a seller in the UK compared to alternatives. At least the MX-30 is more 'car like', even if it is an SUV.

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