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Thu 20 Aug 2020 20:42

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

Apologies for the long post.

I've been looking at the best way to be able to pick up a car that I have bought and bring it home without the need to MOT, tax or insure it. I will be doing this regularly and so it will be worth it to have a proper solution.

One of the issues is that I took my license after the cut off date of 1 January 1997, which means the maximum train weight (gross weight of vehicle and trailer) cannot exceed 3,500kg, whereas before it would have been 8,250kg.

I did think about a recovery truck but the old ones are heavy and therefore don't allow you to add that much weight without going over the 3,500kg limit. This limit is not only in license terms, but also in MAM (Maximum Allowable Mass) of the recovery truck. I don't want to be that restricted as to what car I can carry.

I have done quite a bit of research and every car with a decent towing weight is going to weight around 2 tons gross, which would leave me next to nothing without going over 3,500kg, if you also count the weight of the trailer itself.

The only other option is to take a B+E license, which would mean I am allowed to have a 3,500kg gross weight car towing a 3,500kg gross weight trailer. This would mean I can get any dual axle trailer and tow any car within reason.

This brings me on to the point of what car that would be. I was thinking something obvious like a Sorento or pickup as a cheap, reliable car. However, with the amount of miles I am going to be doing (around 30,000 a year), economy starts to become a major concern. Today I've just looked at what suitable petrol cars could be converted to or bought as LPG, and I thought about the Shogun V6. An LPG car doing 19mpg would save me over £1,000 a year compared to a diesel doing 27mpg. I've looked on the Real MPG section of HJ and on Fuelly and it seems like I could expect around 19 mpg or more. There's also the old ML320 but I'm not sure on economy. A Shogun LWB has a braked towing weight of 3,200kg and the ML320 would be 3,365kg IIRC. This would be fine as I could downplate a 3.5 ton trailer to that weight and still be able to tow pretty heavy cars. I'd also be open to considering a cheap petrol van with a good towing weight but I'm pretty sure no such thing exists.

My questions are these:

Is any of the above information wrong?
Is there any way I can avoid taking the B+E license?
What car would be best suited to my needs?

Thanks!

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Thu 20 Aug 2020 21:11

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

Get a mate who has got BE to hire a 4x4 with a car trailer.

Individual can't down-plate vehicles or trailers - that can only be done by Chartered Engineers or manufacturers.

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Thu 20 Aug 2020 21:59

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

Going to be doing this 5-6 times a month so hiring a car and trailer every time wouldn't make financial sense.

Could you pay a Chartered Engineer to do it and how much would it cost?

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 08:40

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

Going to be doing this 5-6 times a month so hiring a car and trailer every time wouldn't make financial sense.

Could you pay a Chartered Engineer to do it and how much would it cost?

In that case, take the +E test.

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Thu 20 Aug 2020 22:49

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - mss1tw

I could downplate a 3.5 ton trailer to that weight and still be able to tow pretty heavy cars.

Ifor Williams know a thing or two about trailers and seem to say you won't need to

https://www.iwt.co.uk/customer-care/faq-categories/towing-and-towing-laws/show/can-i-still-tow-this-trailer

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 00:15

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

That's useful thanks. So it seems like the only time you need to worry about gross weight is in terms of what license you need, not what the towing capacity of your car is. Makes sense.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 08:42

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

I could downplate a 3.5 ton trailer to that weight and still be able to tow pretty heavy cars.

Ifor Williams know a thing or two about trailers and seem to say you won't need to

https://www.iwt.co.uk/customer-care/faq-categories/towing-and-towing-laws/show/can-i-still-tow-this-trailer

That's a different issue - driver licencing depends on plated weights - all other regulations depend on actual weights, which is the scenario Ifor Williams are referring to.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 09:31

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

I understand that I'll need to take the B+E license to tow a 3.5 ton gross weight trailer. The new thing I've learned is that I won't need a car with a 3,500kg towing capacity to legally tow it, which opens up my options quite a lot. Is this correct?

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 06:44

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Will deBeast

I very strongly recommend doing the B&E course. Lots of places do them, and the training isn't that expensive.

Much better than always being on the edge of being legal.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 07:53

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Bromptonaut

Wot Mr de Beast says, with bells on. Even though I've got grandfather rights I've seriously considered it as a caravan owner.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 09:37

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

Wot Mr de Beast says, with bells on. Even though I've got grandfather rights I've seriously considered it as a caravan owner.

That wouldn't increase the amount of weight you could legally tow, just give you extra training, right?

It is advised online that you shouldn't tow a caravan that weighs more than 85% of your car's weight. Would this still apply to a car on a trailer? I was thinking that as a car is less slab-sided and more aerodynamic than a caravan it might be different.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 10:27

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Terry W

Do the course.

You won't then always be on the margins of legality.

If you had a claim, insurance company may look very closely at whether you are compliant.

30k a year - you do not want a vehicle that can just about cope with trailer + load, you need one which will do it comfortably. Makes it more difficult to stay below 3500kg.

You may learn something - although blokes can do everything without reading the instuctions!

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 12:33

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

30k a year - you do not want a vehicle that can just about cope with trailer + load, you need one which will do it comfortably. Makes it more difficult to stay below 3500kg.

Exactly - I'm going to be spending so much time towing that I need to have a very good tow car that's comfortable towing large weights. I'm just trying to find out what car that would be.

I'll do the course. I had assumed that I would have to simply because the 3,500kg limit is so restricting.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:25

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Bromptonaut

That wouldn't increase the amount of weight you could legally tow, just give you extra training, right?

Exactly that. My current outfit is actually less than 3500kg. MAM for the car is just over two tonnes and the van's plated MTPLM is 1350. In practice we're limited by GTW and load accordingly. That's rock steady and while limited to 60mph in the UK French limits for MAM <3500kg are same as car; 110/130Kph. I've gone as far as 110 but found I could feel the 'van twitching when passing HGVs. Since then I've kept to 100.

We did look at a bigger van and tow car which would take us over 3500kg but that idea is parked for present; too expensive.

Did a towing course before we got the 'van but I'd quite like some more training on manoeuvring and on handling problems like wind and trailer instability.

It is advised online that you shouldn't tow a caravan that weighs more than 85% of your car's weight. Would this still apply to a car on a trailer? I was thinking that as a car is less slab-sided and more aerodynamic than a caravan it might be different.

The recommendation is 85% of the car's kerb weight, particularly for the inexperienced. You can go to 100% of the car's weight but doing so increases risk of instability, braking issues and 'tail wagging dog'. I think 85/100 is a caravan thing and other combinations such has horse boxes and probably car trailers have different characteristics.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 12:09

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Manatee

he recommendation is 85% of the car's kerb weight, particularly for the inexperienced. You can go to 100% of the car's weight but doing so increases risk of instability, braking issues and 'tail wagging dog'. I think 85/100 is a caravan thing and other combinations such has horse boxes and probably car trailers have different characteristics.

Yes the 85/100 is advisory anyway, and arguably most relevant for caravans.

Even my Outlander can legally tow 2000Kg, and kerbweight is only around 1600Kg. And people do, but not without B+E - the trailer MAM being more than the tow car's kerbweight and the total MAM being around 4400Kg.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 12:35

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

If I had to stick to towing at or below the car's kerb weight, I would be restricted massively so good to know it's less applicable for car trailers.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:30

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

Wot Mr de Beast says, with bells on. Even though I've got grandfather rights I've seriously considered it as a caravan owner.

That wouldn't increase the amount of weight you could legally tow, just give you extra training, right?

It is advised online that you shouldn't tow a caravan that weighs more than 85% of your car's weight. Would this still apply to a car on a trailer? I was thinking that as a car is less slab-sided and more aerodynamic than a caravan it might be different.

The advice on caravans is that beginners should restrict to 85% of kerbweight while experienced tuggers should stick below 100% but that has no legal standing and isn't used outside the UK.

Caravans are a specific issue due to the "sail area" of their slab sides - car trailers are less prone to sidewinds and gusts from HGVs.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:33

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

One more thing - if this towing is connected in any way with a business, a tachograph is needed for any tow vehicle where the total outfit is over 3,500 kg other than a private car - when the tachograph is in use, driver's hours restrictions MUST be observed.

Edited by RT on 21/08/2020 at 12:16

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 12:37

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

The towing will be connected loosely with a business. However, I will not be towing for direct 'hire or reward' and the cars I tow will be my property. The car will be my personal vehicle and I will not be employed by anyone to drive it. Can I avoid fitting a tacho?

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 13:01

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

The towing will be connected loosely with a business. However, I will not be towing for direct 'hire or reward' and the cars I tow will be my property. The car will be my personal vehicle and I will not be employed by anyone to drive it. Can I avoid fitting a tacho?

In those circumstances - towing with a car or SUV won't, provided it's not a van variant

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 11:42

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Manatee

Unless you have the +E you will get nowhere with this. Apart from the MAM of the whole shebang having to be 3500Kg or less, the trailer MAM can be no more than the unladen weight of the tow car.

The lightest trailer will weigh around half a ton, will carry no more than around 1000Kg, and you'd have to find a tow car with a MAM of no more than around 2000Kg with sufficient towing capacity.

You need B+E, or a suitable licence for a rigid transporter of sufficient capacity for your needs.

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 15:27

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

Unless you have the +E you will get nowhere with this. Apart from the MAM of the whole shebang having to be 3500Kg or less, the trailer MAM can be no more than the unladen weight of the tow car.

That was withdrawn years ago

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 17:17

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - concrete

I think the OP needs to achieve two goals. Do the towing course and expand the licence uses and pick the right vehicle for the job. If the vehicle is under stress then so are you!

I have towed with family saloon cars and they do a job. My Skoda Superb diesel did just fine but I was always aware the car was towing. It just felt stressed. I bought a largeish SUV and what a difference a larger heavier towing vehicle made. Much more stable and secure. I suspect the same principles apply to the OP's problem. Do it right, do it once.

I practiced with my caravan, doing various manoeuvres on a nearby industrial estate. It got so I could reverse into some tight spots without too much difficulty. Highly recommend practicing with a caravan/trailer to perfect the technique.

Cheers Concrete

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 19:14

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

If the vehicle is under stress then so are you!

Spot on. I don't want to be right at the limits of my car's towing capacity. Does anyone have any thoughts on a Shogun or ML320?

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 22:23

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

If the vehicle is under stress then so are you!

Spot on. I don't want to be right at the limits of my car's towing capacity. Does anyone have any thoughts on a Shogun or ML320?

If you're including a ML on your shortlist, include the VW Touareg, sibling of the Audi Q7 and Porsche Cayenne - the Touareg is the most reliable of the premium SUVs and much better dynamically than old-school SUVs like the Shogun and LandCruiser

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:29

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

The Touareg’s a very good tow car, but the problem is that the petrol versions are rare and expensive. Compared to a diesel Touareg, an LPG Shogun would be cheaper to run and more reliable I think?

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 11:41

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

The Touareg’s a very good tow car, but the problem is that the petrol versions are rare and expensive. Compared to a diesel Touareg, an LPG Shogun would be cheaper to run and more reliable I think?

Comparing like-for-like, which isn't easy, then a diesel tow car will outperform a petrol tow car, by a long way.

LPG is getting harder to find as outlets shut down.

I haven't done the figures but a diesel Touareg will probably match an LPG Shogun on running costs - as Shogun fuel consumption is dire!

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:13

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Metropolis.

I’m not sure I would recommend a Toureg or any other unibody car for commercial towing, occasional caravan trip fine but not anything more. It is a good enough car with more than enough power and stability, but the stress you will put on the unibody structure is immense. Easy test, hitch up a heavy trailer, drive it round the block and then try opening the doors, you might find you can’t!

Shogun was a mixed bag, independent rear suspension made for an Elvis like stance on the wheels under heavy load, but the integral frame (halfway between unibody and body on frame) makes it a reasonable proposition and better than the toureg in that respect. For commercial towing on a budget I would be looking at Ssangyong Rextons, previous gen models with full main dealer history will still be under warranty if less than 7 years old snd under 125,000 miles. The 2.2 diesel with mercedes gearbox is fairly robust. If it goes pop it won’t cost you any more than the lost business.

If your budget is lower still, Hyundai Terracan can be ok as it’s a dressed up Mk2 Shogun. I agree with the others, get your B+E and be done with it.

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:39

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - RT

I’m not sure I would recommend a Toureg or any other unibody car for commercial towing, occasional caravan trip fine but not anything more. It is a good enough car with more than enough power and stability, but the stress you will put on the unibody structure is immense. Easy test, hitch up a heavy trailer, drive it round the block and then try opening the doors, you might find you can’t! Shogun was a mixed bag, independent rear suspension made for an Elvis like stance on the wheels under heavy load, but the integral frame (halfway between unibody and body on frame) makes it a reasonable proposition and better than the toureg in that respect. For commercial towing on a budget I would be looking at Ssangyong Rextons, previous gen models with full main dealer history will still be under warranty if less than 7 years old snd under 125,000 miles. The 2.2 diesel with mercedes gearbox is fairly robust. If it goes pop it won’t cost you any more than the lost business. If your budget is lower still, Hyundai Terracan can be ok as it’s a dressed up Mk2 Shogun. I agree with the others, get your B+E and be done with it.

You're underselling the towing qualities of the Touareg, and several other large SUVs - they seem to cope very well pulling their maximum loads in Australia and North America and completely dispel the myth that you need a body-on-frame pickup to tow anything in North America.

While reliability is still suspect, neither Land Rover or Range Rover have lost their towing ability since their switch to unibody construction.

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:51

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Metropolis.

The Americans tend to use pickup trucks which are body on frame apart from the Honda Pilot, or full size SUVs like the Ford Expedition or Chevy Tahoe and their many variants. In Australia the serious towing (with SUVs) tends to get done by Land Cruiser 200s snd Nissan Patrols, or going down a level the Holden Trailblazer, Isuzu MU-X, Mitsubishi Shogun Sport and Ford Everest. All body on frame again. It’s not a myth that you need a body on frame to tow, well perhaps ‘need’ is the wrong word, but the advantages and disadvantages of each types of construction are real. As I said, I am sure the Toureg is very capable, but I would not be comfortable putting that much stress through the body of a unibody that is not designed to flex, no matter how well made it is.

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:59

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Metropolis.

Sorry not Honda Pilot, I meant the Honda Ridgeline

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Sun 23 Aug 2020 22:27

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - iltym

The Terracan has only got a 2,800kg towing capacity. However, if it is inherently a good tow car, then it would probably be fine as long as I stay away from really heavy cars for it to tow. It is around the price I'm hoping to pay though. What about pickups for around £2000?

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Fri 21 Aug 2020 17:28

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Manatee

Unless you have the +E you will get nowhere with this. Apart from the MAM of the whole shebang having to be 3500Kg or less, the trailer MAM can be no more than the unladen weight of the tow car.

That was withdrawn years ago

You're right, I knew something had changed around 5 or 6 years ago so I checked the Caravan Club website - maybe I found an old page or they haven't caught up. But I don't think it makes it much more viable as he'll need a decent towing limit and the trailer will weigh 500Kg+.

I should have looked at the decision tree here:

https://www.gov.uk/towing-rules

Apology to the OP for the misinformation.

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Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:55

Economy in tow cars and necessary licenses - Metropolis.

Just re-read this. What a year 97 was, Blair in, HK gone red, poor Diana and so too the right to tow anything meaningful without extra tests, now that IS annus horribilis!

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