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I did the first oil change at around 1000 miles on a Hilux, the only vehicle i've ever owned from new.
The lorry i currently drive had its first oil change at 100k kms, that wouldn't have been the case if i owned it but it only has to last the 5 year lease period (probably 900 to 1 million ks) after which it enters the used truck market.
Can't see how filthy the lorry oil is cos no dipstick without tilting the cab, the oil in the Diesel Hilux stayed clean for around 1000 miles following every oil change.
its a case of do what you feel is right for you, i would do it DIY using a genuine filter and the correct spec oil, modern thinking is all about the next replacement vehicle, not in the maker's interests that the vehicle lasts 20 trouble free years, i assume this is a turbocharged engine? if so mechanical sympathy as in warm up cool down routines are arguably as important, but as an engineer you would know this better than i.
Edited by gordonbennet on 03/07/2020 at 08:06
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IIt's under warranty and modern oils and filter should deal with any detritus.
Dunno how oil (modern or ancient) could "deal with" detritus. Its scope would seem to be limited to reducing detritus formation (by reducing wear and being stable enough not to form sludge) and either keeping the detritus that forms, or is already present post-production, or gets through the air filter, in suspension or letting it settle out.
The latter is really only an option with static engines.
Filters vary a lot, but a lot of them let particles below 20 microns through, and these particles cause wear. Since they aren't being effectively removed by a typical filter or "dealt with" by the oil, they can only be removed by an oil change.
BUT the OP talks about keeping the car for only 5 years. It seems very unlikely that an early oil change is going to have a detectable effect on that timescale, and long-term, it is quite likely that something other than engine wear is going to kill the car.
So its only worth doing for any "feel good factor", and if that's the motivation, I'd think it'd make one feel better if one did it oneself.
I suppose I've done a "similar thing", since I dropped and cleaned out the sump (a hassle) on my current zero-value car because the oil had ferrous metal settling out of it.
That didn't make much sense either, but I was quite pleased I did it..
Edited by edlithgow on 03/07/2020 at 11:10
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Owing to modern metals and machining accuracy, engines are so well made that there is no need to change the 'running in oil' at 1000 miles or so. But I dispute the ' from new drive it like you stole it' advice. For the second time in my life I have had a new engine to carefully 'run-in' (Peugeot 1.2 puretech 130). This meant never foot to the floor or more than a brief 4000 revs for the first 500 miles, and then only an occasional flat out up to 6000 revs when the autobox changes up, when thoroughly warmed up. Now at 3,300 miles the oil remains a clear honey colour and there is no discernible departure from the max mark. After 1000 miles it was driven normally, plus regularly ensuring the engine developed its maximum power and revs occasionally, something that I guess most owners like MrsF, whose car it is, might never do. I am hoping it will last as long as our Focus 1.6 Zetec, which at nearly 150,000 miles performs as lustily as ever and has worn well, still doing over 3,000 miles per litre of always the cheapest oil I could find for it every ten to twelve thousand miles.
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Given this is (presumably) a dry clutch DSG, surely the last thing you'd want to do is 'drive it like you stole it'. If you want it to last 5 years then surely driving it as carefully as possible, plus diligent servicing and maintenence is the way to go.
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I thought modern thinking was 'drive it like you stole it' within the first fifty miles to bed the rings in.
My dad always used to "baby" a new car for the first 1000 miles or so and had some real oil burners. I have always driven new cars as the salesman told me when I took delivery of an Escort in 1978, "drive it exactly as you normally would" were his words. Never had an oil burner in those 42 years.
there is no need to change the 'running in oil' at 1000 miles or so
As far as I am aware with modern oils and modern machining techniques/tolerances there is no such thing as running in oils these days. The factory fill is with normal oil.
But its always important to remember the oil change interval is simply not one based on mileage, it always has a time limit as well. Take our Fabia as an example, its on fixed servicing which means an oil change every year or 10,000 miles whichever comes first. Go onto variable and its a maximum of 2 years or 20,000 miles (the car tells you when its required) but there is no cost saving over the yearly fixed so unless you want to avoid a dealer visit its pointless.
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But its always important to remember the oil change interval is simply not one based on mileage, it always has a time limit as well. Take our Fabia as an example, its on fixed servicing which means an oil change every year or 10,000 miles whichever comes first.
Yet again I see this 'every year' dogma thoughtlessly trotted out. There is no scientific basis for it. It seems to have only appeared relatively recently, purely for the benefit of the garage trade, which probably explains the frequency of its appearance on motoring sites such as this. Oil does not 'go off' after 365 days. There is really no need for a poor pensioner (or even a comfortably orf one) doing fewer than 5000 miles a year to incur the unnecessary expense and hassle of changing the oil and filter annually.
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<< Yet again I see this 'every year' dogma thoughtlessly trotted out. There is no scientific basis for it. It seems to have only appeared relatively recently, >>
I don't know what you consider to be relatively recent, John, but the Haynes manual for my 306 says change oil after 12K or 12 months, whichever comes first, and I think the one for the 205 (which I no longer have) said something similar 25 years ago. I think the time limit has been there for quite a while for many cars. It's intended to prevent people going too far by either parameter - especially the ones who aren't very car-savvy.
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<< Yet again I see this 'every year' dogma thoughtlessly trotted out. There is no scientific basis for it. It seems to have only appeared relatively recently, >>
I don't know what you consider to be relatively recent, John, but the Haynes manual for my 306 says change oil after 12K or 12 months, whichever comes first, and I think the one for the 205 (which I no longer have) said something similar 25 years ago. I think the time limit has been there for quite a while for many cars.
My 1983 TR7 Haynes manual just advises the 6000 mile oil and filter change with no mention of time limit. BUT - you are right. Mr Haynes perhaps didn't read the TR7 handbook thoroughly (and neither did I till now!) because, on a different page, apart from the maintenance schedules, it reads......'the schedules are based on an annual mileage of 20000 km (12000 miles) if the vehicle is driven at substantially less than this rate then.....a 10000km (6000 mile) service should be carried out at 6 months intervals.....' Apparently this means I should have changed the oil and filter about eighty times - for a mere 71,000 miles!! As it has had only five changes since the one in 1989 I suppose the person who wrote that would be astonished to learn that the engine has neither seized up nor rattles loudly burning copious quantities of oil.
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You may very well cause some damage by changing the oil so early.
Why?
Your 1.5tsi EA211 engine is still very tight at 1000 miles, it is specifically designed to use low viscosity oil and is factory filled with Fuchs 0w20 oil to Vw508/509. In the first 1000 miles (or may be km) the ECU is programmed to run the electronically variable pressure oil pump at maximum system pressure to aid running in. This is to maintain a high flow rate through bearings, assist cooling and flush any debris. After 1000 miles a normal variable pressure profile versus engine load/speed is then used.
Flow is a function of pressure and viscosity. Oil flow is critical to maintain cooling of turbo bearings etc.
When my dealer carried out the first service on my Skoda they filled it with cheaper VW502 oil which is 5w40 grade, ignoring the factory recommendation. Now my car has worse fuel consumption (by at least 5%). Of more corncern as oil flow is worse than it should be, (ECU controls oil pressure) I have noticed it now runs at a higher oil temperature than it did before.
blog.amsoil.com/what-happens-if-i-use-the-wrong-we.../
Other points
Every time you change oil and filter, draining the engine, there is some extra wear and damage incurred during the seconds taken to fill the filter/engine galleries and restore full and correct oil flow throughout the engine.
Last but not least, but dependent on the attitude of your dealer and the wording of your service agreement, which will be with Skoda financial services, you may find that you inadvertently forfeit the "first" service as Skoda's electronic service recording system may not allow it to be carried out under the terms of your agreement insisting it had to be the "first" oil change.
Edited by brum on 04/07/2020 at 00:13
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<< Every time you change oil and filter, draining the engine, there is some extra wear and damage incurred during the seconds taken to fill the filter/engine galleries and restore full and correct oil flow throughout the engine. >>
I accept that the running of modern engines is much more tightly controlled than it used to be, but are you really suggesting that after 15-20 minutes draining, so little oil is left in a warm engine that significant damage is done in the few seconds before the fresh oil gets round ? That sounds like nanotech to me.
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I started my car for the first time in weeks during this lockdown and was surprised at the rattling until the oil light went out. I've since wound it on the starter with a fuel fuse removed until the oil light goes out every couple of weeks. I do the same when I change the oil and filter.
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I started my car for the first time in weeks during this lockdown and was surprised at the rattling until the oil light went out. I've since wound it on the starter with a fuel fuse removed until the oil light goes out every couple of weeks. I do the same when I change the oil and filter.
I suppose that is a gratifying precaution to take, but I wonder how much difference it makes. I would guess that oil reaches the important parts some time before it gets to the pressure sensor ?
Of course waiting several weeks is rather different from just 15-20 minutes to drain.
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<< Yet again I see this 'every year' dogma thoughtlessly trotted out. There is no scientific basis for it. It seems to have only appeared relatively recently, >>
I don't know what you consider to be relatively recent, John, but the Haynes manual for my 306 says change oil after 12K or 12 months, whichever comes first, and I think the one for the 205 (which I no longer have) said something similar 25 years ago. I think the time limit has been there for quite a while for many cars. It's intended to prevent people going too far by either parameter - especially the ones who aren't very car-savvy.
As far as I am aware the mileage and time limits have been there since the 60's probably longer. My first car, a 1964 Anglia had services specified at 3000/3 months (chassis lube), 6000/6 months (minor which included oil and filter) and at 12,000/12 months a major which included pretty much everything. The handbook even gave detailed instruction on how to carry out a decoke every 30,000 miles.
The 6,000mile/6 month interval continued until I bought a Golf in 1986 when it changed to 10,000 miles/12 months and that saved me a fortune. The only car I remember looking at with a 6000 mile/6 month interval since was a Subaru back in the 90's and those intervals made running costs eye opening, no wonder they have all but disappeared.
Your 1.5tsi EA211 engine is still very tight at 1000 miles, it is specifically designed to use low viscosity oil and is factory filled with Fuchs 0w20 oil to Vw508/509. In the first 1000 miles (or may be km) the ECU is programmed to run the electronically variable pressure oil pump at maximum system pressure to aid running in. This is to maintain a high flow rate through bearings, assist cooling and flush any debris. After 1000 miles a normal variable pressure profile versus engine load/speed is then used.
When my dealer carried out the first service on my Skoda they filled it with cheaper VW502 oil which is 5w40 grade, ignoring the factory recommendation. Now my car has worse fuel consumption (by at least 5%). Of more corncern as oil flow is worse than it should be, (ECU controls oil pressure) I have noticed it now runs at a higher oil temperature than it did before.
Your Skoda dealer must be pretty rubbish. 5w40 502 spec oil is as far as I am aware an obsolete grade originally specifed for non turbo petrols. Take the car back and get them to use the correct oil. If the car has an issue Skoda may well refuse to honour the warranty which may lead to legal actions against the dealer. Shame you cannot name them on her, their customers (and potential customers) need to be made aware of their shocking act of ignoring factory recommendations.
When our Fabia went in back in May for its 2nd service I asked about changing to the variable instead of the fixed and asked about the difference in the oils used. He told me that VAG now specify 508/509 for all petrols regardless of fixed or variable and he told me it was the only oil they used. Not 100% sure but I seem to remember he said it was the same oil for diesels as well.
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I started my car for the first time in weeks during this lockdown and was surprised at the rattling until the oil light went out. I've since wound it on the starter with a fuel fuse removed until the oil light goes out every couple of weeks. I do the same when I change the oil and filter.
I used to do this after a long stand, with the added refinement (?) of removing the plugs. Lately I don't bother so much, though if say, I was away in the UK over the summer I might still do it on my return.
Last oil ichange interval was about 6 years. Taking the plugs out for restarting after every oil change is not therefore very onerous.
I do drain it overnight though rather than the 20 minutes mentioned above. Maybe I should stop doing that, but OTOH I don't use skinny oil so maybe the residue is a bit more protective. Dunno.
For routine starts, it won't unless I blip the accelerator a bit, so its easy to turn it over a little without firing the engine.
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Cannot see why starting a car after say 2days 2weeks or 2 months makes any difference in the overall wear on an engine. Reading the above posts it is amazing how enthusiastic some owners are with their cars how do some sleep at night worrying about their next start up or should I maybe drive it 1mile to the shop or would that be wasting a start up!
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Cannot see why starting a car after say 2days 2weeks or 2 months makes any difference in the overall wear on an engine. Reading the above posts it is amazing how enthusiastic some owners are with their cars how do some sleep at night worrying about their next start up or should I maybe drive it 1mile to the shop or would that be wasting a start up!
I think the mild concern is oil drain down. This might be expected to be greater over 2 months than 2 days, though engines never seem to get really dry even after standing for years.
I can't say I've noticed much extra valve noise etc, on a long stand but then I don't use skinny oil (its about a 25W40 blend IIRC)
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You may very well cause some damage by changing the oil so early.
When my dealer carried out the first service on my Skoda they filled it with cheaper VW502 oil which is 5w40 grade, ignoring the factory recommendation. Now my car has worse fuel consumption (by at least 5%). Of more corncern as oil flow is worse than it should be, (ECU controls oil pressure) I have noticed it now runs at a higher oil temperature than it did before.
Your assertion above refers to an "early" oil change being damaging, but in fact assumes (a) that the wrong oil will be used, and (b) that this will be damaging.
The first assumption seems unjustified, and the second is doubtful.
Lower viscosity oil gives lower fuel consumption. That's why they use it.
OTOH it gives worse wear protection, but this probably won't matter over the likely lifespan of a car.
www.substech.com/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?cache=...g
Higher oil temperature will be due to lower flow rates (at constant pressure) and internal shear heating of the oil. To be damaging it would have to cause greatly accelerated thermal breakdown of the oil within the oil change interval, and coking up of oil passages.
Do you have any reason to believe this is happening?
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You may very well cause some damage by changing the oil so early.
When my dealer carried out the first service on my Skoda they filled it with cheaper VW502 oil which is 5w40 grade, ignoring the factory recommendation. Now my car has worse fuel consumption (by at least 5%). Of more corncern as oil flow is worse than it should be, (ECU controls oil pressure) I have noticed it now runs at a higher oil temperature than it did before.
Your assertion above refers to an "early" oil change being damaging, but in fact assumes (a) that the wrong oil will be used, and (b) that this will be damaging.
The first assumption seems unjustified, and the second is doubtful.
Lower viscosity oil gives lower fuel consumption. That's why they use it.
OTOH it gives worse wear protection, but this probably won't matter over the likely lifespan of a car.
www.substech.com/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?cache=...g
Higher oil temperature will be due to lower flow rates (at constant pressure) and internal shear heating of the oil. To be damaging it would have to cause greatly accelerated thermal breakdown of the oil within the oil change interval, and coking up of oil passages.
Do you have any reason to believe this is happening?
VAG have their own oil specs for their cars and they have changed over the years. As a new spec becomes available its always suitable to use in older cars but the older spec is not normally suitable for use in newer and current cars.
The 502 spec used is not listed for use in the newer turbo cars and is certainly not suitable for modern diesels with DPF's. The price difference between the correct and incorrect oil is small, probably £10 extra for a 5 litre container so why use the wrong stuff, its barmy.
Its all in the manual but since you don't own a VAG car you do not have access to this info without searching on line.
Its not just the ability of the oil to lubricate which is of course critical but its also the oils compatibility with the cars emissions systems. Damage to either will be costly.
So as I say, a tenner every year extra for the right stuff is a no brainer.
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You may very well cause some damage by changing the oil so early.
When my dealer carried out the first service on my Skoda they filled it with cheaper VW502 oil which is 5w40 grade, ignoring the factory recommendation. Now my car has worse fuel consumption (by at least 5%). Of more corncern as oil flow is worse than it should be, (ECU controls oil pressure) I have noticed it now runs at a higher oil temperature than it did before.
Your assertion above refers to an "early" oil change being damaging, but in fact assumes (a) that the wrong oil will be used, and (b) that this will be damaging.
The first assumption seems unjustified, and the second is doubtful.
Lower viscosity oil gives lower fuel consumption. That's why they use it.
OTOH it gives worse wear protection, but this probably won't matter over the likely lifespan of a car.
www.substech.com/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?cache=...g
Higher oil temperature will be due to lower flow rates (at constant pressure) and internal shear heating of the oil. To be damaging it would have to cause greatly accelerated thermal breakdown of the oil within the oil change interval, and coking up of oil passages.
Do you have any reason to believe this is happening?
VAG have their own oil specs for their cars and they have changed over the years. As a new spec becomes available its always suitable to use in older cars but the older spec is not normally suitable for use in newer and current cars.
The 502 spec used is not listed for use in the newer turbo cars and is certainly not suitable for modern diesels with DPF's. The price difference between the correct and incorrect oil is small, probably £10 extra for a 5 litre container so why use the wrong stuff, its barmy.
Its all in the manual but since you don't own a VAG car you do not have access to this info without searching on line.
Its not just the ability of the oil to lubricate which is of course critical but its also the oils compatibility with the cars emissions systems. Damage to either will be costly.
So as I say, a tenner every year extra for the right stuff is a no brainer.
I was responding to the issues mentioned, which were (a) that the wrong oil would be used by the OP (which seems an unjustified assumption) and (b) that the wrong oil used by the posters dealer was too high a viscosity and ran too hot.
If it is also incompatible with the DPF that, unlike the viscosity, is a real issue and a real concern which I'd have expected them to mention.
If they are unaware of it, its to be hoped they read this post, since its of more vital interest to them than it is to me.
As you say, I don't have a VAG vehicle with a DPF, and hope I never will..
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