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Grand estates - SLO76
As a middle aged family man I like a good dad mobile which to me is a large estate car, preferably of blue collar descent. But who built the best estate cars in your opinion?

Ford has made some great estates over the years. The Sierra 2.8 V6 Ghia 4x4 was a nice big barge. The Granada Mk II 2.8 Ghia again drive well and had tonnes of space. The Mondeo Mk I and Mk I facelift were all great especially the V6’s. The Focus Mk I was a joy to drive yet practical and the Mk II largely the same if a bit less interesting to look at. The late Scorpio estate was a great big slush-mobile too in V6 spec. They didn’t forget the driver with ST versions of the Focus from Mk III onward.

Volvo has to be a front runner with tough as old boots legends like the 240 and 740 that were capable of interstellar mileages. The later 850 combined this with BMW beating handling and spirited 5cyl 20v performance especially the T5 which is now worth a fortune in good order. Later cars became a bit too complex and reliability failed under Ford but today’s examples look great inside and out thanks to the Chinese effectively giving Swedish engineers a blank cheque. Not sure I like the complexity though, I prefer my old basic wagons.

BMW has to be in there too with some great drivers cars. Most were compromised for space in order to allow complex suspension setups that favoured driver over payload but the 3 and 5series routings have always been great cars. Reliability again fell with later models over complex and weak on longevity but they still drive great.

Peugeot can’t be missed out either since they made the sweet handling 306 and 405, the comfortable and tough 406 and the Africa conquering 504 and 505. Later cars have been miserable sadly.

Mercedes could be my front runner as they built two of the best made cars ever, the 123 and 124 series E classes. Both felt like they were hewn from granite and proved capable of million mile plus service at the hands of taxi drivers across the world. The 123 series E300 auto diesel estate is probably the toughest car ever made, no wonder with all of 88bhp from it’s low revving 3.0 engine.

Toyota has to feature too again purely from durability sake. The Carina was another 500k plus survivor the Carina E was even better. The Avensis was a bit dated but again it was just as tough. The Auris hybrid is all over the place on taxi plates and the Camry estate would outlast most of us when bought new. Tough and simple. I own one myself, it’s a decade old yet looks and drives like a two year old.

VAG has to be mentioned too mostly because of the outstanding longevity and drivability of the old 1.9 PD TDi motors. A Golf Mk IV, Passat, Skoda Octavia, Superb A4 or A6 so equipped would easily sail past 500,000 miles and still go like the clappers.

To me I think the Volvo 850 T5 manual wins it. Just as tough as any other Volvo but it handled well and could pulverise most hot hatches of the era yet it was still a refined and comfortable thing to sit in. The Touring cars of the time served to make you looked like daddy cool too. This is to me the best estate car ever made with the Mercedes 123 series E230 auto coming next.

Edited by SLO76 on 02/05/2020 at 00:50

Grand estates - expat

As I have often said I am a fan of big estates. Loads of space for loads of luggage which I used to take up and down to the city twice a week pre Covid. A nice big 6 or 8 cylinder engine and a TC gearbox. Makes for relaxed long distance travelling. Very very practical. Unfortunately hard to get now in Australia at any rate. No more Commodores and Falcons. The Mondeo has a DCT gearbox which rules it out for me. That also rules out all the VAG vehicles also unless you go for a manual which I don't want. If they still sold Camry estates I would buy one tomorrow but they don't. There is really only the Mazda 6 and the Subaru Outback to choose from. I don't want an SUV. The extra space is up the top where it is no use, not out the back where I can fit bicycles, ladders, pole saws, the dog and umpteen boxes of necessities. My Falcon wagon is 17 years old but still reliable, no rust and cheap to run because it is dual fuel LPG, so I will keep my money and keep on running the old bus.

Grand estates - gordonbennet

Another big fan of estates here, sadly to get a modern proper squared off rear estate these days chances are end up with a Japanese 4x4 from Subaru or a big Toyota (we have both, the Forester is a small car but the squared boot is surprisingly large and more useful for that in my humble than the much larger Legacy/ Outback) or Mitsubishi in the form of Pajero/Shogun, or you do as many have done and go with a twin cab pick up complete with canopy which at least enables affordable so far commercial VED rates and the vehicles tend to be durable.

Some of the most useful estates came from Japan too in the 70's, namely Nissan 300 (remember the twin rear wipers?) and Toyota's Crown and later Camry all rare on our roads due as much to gentlemans import quotas as anything, whilst no one would expect these to be sporting estates they provided reliable luxury load carriers, and everyone elses offerings apart from Volvo rusted just as quickly in those days.

Later on came Mazda with the 929 estate, haven't seen one for years and the 626, was hopeful Hyundai/Kia might chuck a spanner in the works by sticking a useful estate section on the back of Sonata/Magentis, they'd have sold well, but we've had to wait until now for the 140 and now Optima which both follow sloping glorified hatch fashion.

Mercedea have always made useful estates, C not as useful as E, the best of all for size probably being the unloved but cavernous W210 whcih all too often rusted away before your very eyes before even a 70's Japanese offering could manage thanks to UK winter salt baths, Merc also offered a whole choice of engines in their estates from W210 onwards, including sports car destroying V8's, not sure about their latest models, following turn of the century PSA in morphing previous good estates into elongated hatchbacks.

Van based MPV's have stolen the estate car market, i looked in a new Transit/Tourneo based people carrier the other day, three seats in front, the mid section having 6 seats, two rows facing each other, and still a large boot with a really low flat load line, though i have no idea how difficult removing the seats would be.

Edited by gordonbennet on 02/05/2020 at 08:48

Grand estates - badbusdriver

First mention from me has to be the MK2 Ford Granada like my Dad used to have. Big and handsome, but very thirsty with the 2.8 carb V6 and 3 speed t/c auto!.

Also the Peugeot 504 holds a special place for me. As a kid, my pals Dad had one of these 8 seaters (they had 5 kids in total) and we thought it great sitting right at the back!.

Citroen really need a mention here. From the DS, the CX through to the last 'proper' Citroen estate, the XM. The DS and CX had the added bonus of having a longer wheelbase than the saloon/hatchback equivalents. 8 seat options for the DS and CX meant it was more like a minibus/mpv, ideal for the large family.

I also really like the Saab 95. It is an odd looking thing, the rear styling of the estate is so different from that of the (teardrop shaped) saloon and shouldn't really work. But it has a quirky appeal all of its own and the fact that you had 7 seats gave it a huge amount of versatility for a fairly small car.

Volvo has been mentioned, but it is the older ones i like. Particularly the 'Amazon', but also the earlier PV 'Duett' style, are, imo, about the coolest estates other than the classic Yanks!. I'll have an Amazon in a solid blue with a wooden roof rack thanks!.

Moving over to the other side of the pond, there have been so many great estates i hardly know what to mention!. From the older 'woodies', through the fabulous 50's machines to the enormous 'land yachts' of the 60's and 70's. But i will pick out something a little younger as a personal favourite, the Buick Roadmaster wagon from around 1991-1996. I used to think the fake wood panels particulalrly naff looking, but i dunno, maybe because i'm getting older, but i kinda like them now!. So i'd be looking at an 8 seater, with the LT1 V8 (as per the Corvette) offering up a lazy 260bhp as standard. There is not a hope in hell i could park on our street though, not at 5.5 meters long and a touch under 2 meters wide!.

Grand estates - expat

go with a twin cab pick up complete with canopy which at least enables affordable so far commercial VED rates and the vehicles tend to be durable.

Dual cab utes are durable but only if used properly. Do a google on "broken back dual cab ute". The trouble is that the extended cab takes a big chunk of the load area. This results in people putting weight behind the rear axle instead of between the axles or over the rear axle. Add in also the smart asses who overload them, the caravan towing without proper concern for the towing weight limits, the people who 'upgrade' the suspension with air bags. None of those sort of things should happen but they do. People think that a Hilux or Ranger is indestructable and use them for loads that they should hire a proper truck for.

Grand estates - gordonbennet

Do a google on "broken back dual cab ute". The trouble is that the extended cab takes a big chunk of the load area. This results in people putting weight behind the rear axle instead of between the axles or over the rear axle.

Usually the preserve of Nissan pick ups in the UK, caused not by overload abuse but by corrosion of the poorly protected box chassis under the rear passenger section, the chassis eventually breaking its back.

Pick ups don't normally get the sort of abuse you talk about in the UK, most of them only go off road regularly if owned by construction/engineering crews or farmers.

Grand estates - jc2

Many modern estates are little more than slightly stretched hatchbacks-to get a proper estate you need a near vertical rear window to allow it to carry proper loads!I can remember carrying a full-sized settee in the back of my Escort and being able to shut the tailgate!

Grand estates - focussed

" do as many have done and go with a twin cab pick up complete with canopy which at least enables affordable so far commercial VED rates and the vehicles tend to be durable."

That's why we will stick with our 15 year old double cab L200 pick-up with the original Mitsubishi sport canopy. It's got a bedrug in the back so is like an estate and anything smelly like bags of compost is isolated.from the cab. We also use it if we are going anywhere where we might have to "rough park" - up verges, in fields, gravel beaches etc or to any friends who live up rough chemin tracks in the middle of nowhere.

Grand estates - Steveieb

Lots of brilliant estates have been highlighted but only Audi have been able to combine saloon car style with estate car load capacity through their Avant range.

Choose an Audi to suit your size requirements and then opt for the Avant. Simple. Nothing compromised.

So good in fact that one of our moderators named himself after the range!

Grand estates - badbusdriver

Lots of brilliant estates have been highlighted but only Audi have been able to combine saloon car style with estate car load capacity through their Avant range.

The Avant, originally, was just a hatchback version of the 2nd gen 100.

live.staticflickr.com/2521/3897300351_d0b547031d_b...g

But it is wrong to suggest either that they looked like saloons, or that the load capacity was not compromised by the styling (of the 3rd gen cars). Yes, they looked good with the heavily sloped rear, and certainly more sporting than estates usually were, but they still looked like estates. And as for the load capacity?, well floor space didn't suffer at all. But you'd certainly find where the design was compromised in the interest of styling if you tried to get something big and square like a wardrobe in the back but couldn't close the tailgate without breaking the rear window (emphatically not a problem in a Volvo 740/760)!.

But reading your post did remind me of the 200 Avant Quattro, which would certainly be one of my all time favourite estates!.

Edited by badbusdriver on 02/05/2020 at 09:55

Grand estates - groaver

Well I'm biased but you'll struggle to beat a Superb's load capacity these days.

Fold the rear seats and you can all but set up camp.

With the correct wheels it has a lovely cosseting ride too.

Grand estates - SLO76

Well I'm biased but you'll struggle to beat a Superb's load capacity these days.

Fold the rear seats and you can all but set up camp.

With the correct wheels it has a lovely cosseting ride too.

An excellent big car. Only problem is the lack of a reliable autobox.
Grand estates - groaver

You want to hate that wet dsg box in the bigger engined ones. Reliability results show it to be no worse than other autoboxes. Buy a manual if it scares.

Grand estates - SLO76

You want to hate that wet dsg box in the bigger engined ones. Reliability results show it to be no worse than other autoboxes. Buy a manual if it scares.

Which longterm reliability results are you referring to? All reliability surveys are over 3-5yrs a term during which even the most unreliable vehicle should hold up. But would I buy a DSG equipped Skoda or VW at say 5yrs old with 50k up? Nope, I wouldn’t and I know plenty of people, particularly taxi drivers who’ve suffered huge costs from gearbox failures on these.
Grand estates - Engineer Andy

Well I'm biased but you'll struggle to beat a Superb's load capacity these days.

Fold the rear seats and you can all but set up camp.

With the correct wheels it has a lovely cosseting ride too.

An excellent big car. Only problem is the lack of a reliable autobox.

Indeed. When things eventually get back to normality (if they do), one of the cars on my list of possibles is the new(ish) Corolla Touring Sports - of the engine variants on offer, I prefer the 2.0 hybrid for its extra oomph (and it's a newer design than the 1.8), even if I have to have it mated to their CVT auto box, which using this engine at least now comes with a 'proper' first gear and 'stepped CVT ratios' to reduce the horrible whining of the CVT.

I'd normally go for a saloon, but that car only comes in 1.8 form (slow) and the hatch (quite nice looking itself) has a small boot. The estate is the best looking of the three as well.

When done right, estates can be really nice looking cars, such as the Audi A4 Avant, BMW 3-Series, VW Passat, previous Ford Focuses & Mondeos and various older Peugeot 40x series cars.

Rarely do our Oriental friends get these right, at least in terms of styling, which is a shame, as often they are very worthy cars underneath. The Corolla will be a serious contender for me, if I can afford one, that is...not cheap (like the current Mazda3 SA-X engined equivalents [in hatch and fastback form only]). A shame that nearly all the other 'lookers' have to come with dual clutch gearboxes or generally cost a lot of money.

Grand estates - Avant

With all the well-documented problems with kangarooing 1.5 engines and questionable dry-clutch DSGs, we need to remember that the VAG 2.0-litre models, both petrol and diesel, carry on without trouble. The wet-clutch DSG seems to have no more reliability issues than any other gearbox.

Skoda in particular have both the estate and SUV markets covered. You can't have the Fabia and Kamiq with 2 litres, but personally I'd always go for a manual on smaller cars. There's a strong case for a Skoda model to be on most people's shortlists.

Grand estates - groaver

Sorry Avant, I should have read your post first!

Grand estates - Metropolis.
If you like big estates watch this Chrysler commercial from 1973, b***** marvellous!

youtu.be/9zq_6NtNzpg
Grand estates - Trilogy.

Focus MK2 and Pedugeot 406 were badly designed compared with their predecessors and in realtion to most they're bad. If they'd been designed properly I'd have had one or the other. Peugeot always used to make great estates, particularly the 305 and 406. Citroen C5, the ungainly one, was very good. CX, BX and GS/GSA too. Laguna MK1 was great. First Focus brilliant, just like 305/405. IIRC Peugeot 504 and 505 were great as estates and as cars to drive.

Of recent cars the Civic is one of the best, the magic seats are an outstanding invention and the seats fold completely flat, unlike some, stand up Mazda, for claiming their seats (in the cars I've seen) fold flat. Flat is flat, not sloping!

For an estate to be great it has to be fit for purpose. Too many fail on that front, now more a lifestyle vehicle than a proper estate, of course IMO.

Edited by Trilogy. on 02/05/2020 at 14:32

Grand estates - Avant

It's customers' laziness that has created the lifestye estate. You used to lift the cushion up and forward and then lower the seatback - and you got a flat floor. Now people just want to lower the seatback on to the cushion (or even just pull levers in the boot).

Personally I don't mind it not being quite flat, as long as there isn't a lip between boot space and lowered seatback.

Grand estates - Trilogy.

Avant, for me a lifestyle estate is to do with shape and lack of capacity rather then how the seat folds. The ultimate seat folding arrangement, for the lazy, and the rest of us, was the Renault 25 hatchback. As you lifted the cushion the backrest moved into the cushion's void. The cushion ended up vertical to protect the front seats from items in the load space.

The ultimate small estate for me is a MK1 Focus ST170. Barring rust and reliability issues a CX would be my ultimate estate. Way back in around 1981 such an estate made a lasting impression. The best ride in the business combined with quick steering, powerful brakes, space age dashboard with rotating speedometer.and the most capacious load area you could wish for provided the ultimate estate. As a runner up, a W124 300TE Mercedes from around 1990-1992, when they were still built properly.

Grand estates - John F

I have fond memories of our 1983 Passat GL5 estate with its superb Audi 5 cylinder engine. Ideal for our active young family. Manual gearbox with a long legged 5th gear and an 'econometer' to encourage a light right foot. Bought for £5,500 in 1984 with 13,000 miles o the clock, traded in at 192,000miles (3.1p per mile depreciation over ten years of ownership) plus £13,000 for a nearly new 1994 Passat 2.0GL auto estate which gave us another ten years and over 230,000 miles - a good car but I didn't like it as much as the old GL5. After that, our X reg Focus estate bought in 2004 - and stlll going strong. Just three estates for thirty five years of family motoring. All self-serviced as per my economical schedule .;-)

Grand estates - SLO76
“ I have fond memories of our 1983 Passat GL5 estate with its superb Audi 5 cylinder engine.“

Liked them.
Grand estates - DavidGlos

It's customers' laziness that has created the lifestye estate. You used to lift the cushion up and forward and then lower the seatback - and you got a flat floor. Now people just want to lower the seatback on to the cushion (or even just pull levers in the boot).

Personally I don't mind it not being quite flat, as long as there isn't a lip between boot space and lowered seatback.

It's customers' laziness that has created the lifestye estate. You used to lift the cushion up and forward and then lower the seatback - and you got a flat floor. Now people just want to lower the seatback on to the cushion (or even just pull levers in the boot).

Personally I don't mind it not being quite flat, as long as there isn't a lip between boot space and lowered seatback.

...and flipping the seat bases up created an impromptu bulkhead of sorts, which reduced the chances of cargo joining you in the front of the car under heavy braking.
Grand estates - dan86
If you like big estates watch this Chrysler commercial from 1973, b***** marvellous! youtu.be/9zq_6NtNzpg

I'd love one of those as my family taxi. Just need oil prices to get a bit cheaper.

Grand estates - Alby Back
I must have done nigh on a million miles in Mondeo estates, and a further 350,000 in E Class estates. It's a cliche, but all were bulletproof and capable in all ways. Would have either again in a heartbeat.

Punctuated by Vovos ( 750s and 850s ) ok, but never really engaged with them. A Xantia, quite nice but gave me backache. An Espace, huge mistake. A Galaxy, quite nice actually. A BMW 5 series, again quite nice, but not in the same league as an E. An Audi A4 Avant, again ok, but nose heavy handling.

All things being equal, I'm going to stick with E Class estates. Just do everything, very well, for a long time.
Grand estates - Alby Back
Apologies, 740s
;-)
Grand estates - Senexdriver

A vote for our 1983 Carlton estate. 1.8 litre petrol, 38mpg on a run and a great motorway cruiser. Acres of square space inside for our retriever and baby effects. Bought it with 43,000 on the clock in 1986 for £3995 and moved it on in 1991 with 93,000 on the clock, heavy oil consumption and an annoyingly unreliable automatic choke. But all the while it was good it was great. Coming from a dreadful Cortina estate (a lemon that I take full responsibility for buying) we thought we were in a Rolls Royce. It was the first car we’d owned that had a 5 speed gearbox, a rev counter, a height adjustable driver’s seat, power steering, a sunroof and a radio/cassette player that was built into the dash rather than screwed underneath on a metal bracket contraption. It also had a reassuring Germanic clunk as you closed the doors.

Grand estates - expat
If you like big estates watch this Chrysler commercial from 1973, b***** marvellous! youtu.be/9zq_6NtNzpg

That is a decent size estate. No difficulty carrying a fridge in the back. Look at those steel bumpers. Don't you mess with me mate! Where can I buy a new one now?

Grand estates - nellyjak

For me...I think I would always come back to a Volvo.

Grand estates - Chris M

Only ever had one estate. Renault 21 Savanna bought at 2 years old and 60k miles. Stayed reliable almost to the end, when I got rid at 100k. It was never a ball of fire with only the 1.7 petrol engine. Very comfortable ride though with soft seats, soft suspension and possibly the longest wheelbase of any estate at the time. Also one of the most spacious inside. I remember taking a double bed to the tip. Both halves of the divan inside and the mattress tied to the roof - standard roof rails and rubber strips on the roof negating the need for a rack.

Grand estates - gordonbennet

Renault 21 Savanna bought at 2 years old and 60k miles. Stayed reliable almost to the end, when I got rid at 100k. It was never a ball of fire with only the 1.7 petrol engine. Very comfortable ride though with soft seats, soft suspension and possibly the longest wheelbase of any estate at the time. Also one of the most spacious inside. I remember taking a double bed to the tip. Both halves of the divan inside and the mattress tied to the roof - standard roof rails and rubber strips on the roof negating the need for a rack.

Well recalled, i had one with the 2068cc Diesel, a good car all round, cavernous, soft riding with comfy seats but could corner at silly speeds without any drama over any surface, unlike the concrete sprung things of today that 'hop' over our crater littered roads, had done 113k when i bought it but with a full history.

They had dim dip too, something that should be standard instead of these daft blinding fairy lights.

Edited by gordonbennet on 03/05/2020 at 12:51

Grand estates - RJ414i

Renault 21 Savanna bought at 2 years old and 60k miles. Stayed reliable almost to the end, when I got rid at 100k. It was never a ball of fire with only the 1.7 petrol engine. Very comfortable ride though with soft seats, soft suspension and possibly the longest wheelbase of any estate at the time. Also one of the most spacious inside. I remember taking a double bed to the tip. Both halves of the divan inside and the mattress tied to the roof - standard roof rails and rubber strips on the roof negating the need for a rack.

Well recalled, i had one with the 2068cc Diesel, a good car all round, cavernous, soft riding with comfy seats but could corner at silly speeds without any drama over any surface, unlike the concrete sprung things of today that 'hop' over our crater littered roads, had done 113k when i bought it but with a full history.

They had dim dip too, something that should be standard instead of these daft blinding fairy lights.

Ha dim dip, that was one that got away.

Grand estates - Trilogy.

Only ever had one estate. Renault 21 Savanna bought at 2 years old and 60k miles. Stayed reliable almost to the end, when I got rid at 100k. It was never a ball of fire with only the 1.7 petrol engine. Very comfortable ride though with soft seats, soft suspension and possibly the longest wheelbase of any estate at the time. Also one of the most spacious inside. I remember taking a double bed to the tip. Both halves of the divan inside and the mattress tied to the roof - standard roof rails and rubber strips on the roof negating the need for a rack.

Many years ago a friend bought a petrol version with 100,000 miles on it for £2,000. Lovely car to be a passenger in, hugely capacious, he kept it for several years.

Grand estates - Avant

Good to drive too - at least mine was, a 2.0 petrol We had four children and that was one of the few cars available with 7 seats in those days (1980s). I only had it for two years as I moved jobs.

I had an Espace then, again a 2.0 and also much better to drive than one might have imagined.

Grand estates - Trilogy.

The original Espace is now quite sort after. No doubt many met an untimely fate in 2009. Let's hope if the scheme is resurrected someone puts more thought into it so lots of good cars aren't scrapped while having plenty of life remaining.

Grand estates - SLO76
I quite liked the R21, they were very comfy big things and lasted well. Later cars were quite well screwed together and the taxi trade liked the old 1870cc diesels. Slow things with 65bhp but mechanically tough and very comfy.

I flogged a late 2.0 GTX auto many years back and it was a lovely old thing to drive. b***** hard work to sell though and zero profit was made.,
Grand estates - Alby Back
If my Espace had been a horse, I would have shot it. It came home on the back of a recovery truck 16 times in the two years I had the wretched thing. Worst car I've ever had.

Grand estates - Heidfirst

Surprised that nobody has mentioned Opel/Vauhall (oops, missed senexdriver). Imo, like Volvo & Mercedes they understood estates & fitted them with the extra bits that made them even more practical e.g. front passenger seats where the backs folded forward as well for long loads & you only needed to look at the shed-like back of a Vectra D estate to understand it's load capacity. I loved my Carlton & Omega estates where handling was more enjoyable than modern fwd ones.

Sadly, not always the most reliable electrically though ...

I seem to recall that I read recently that the Insignia estate is being killed.

Edited by Heidfirst on 04/05/2020 at 18:14

Grand estates - gordonbennet

Vectra estate was excellent, longer wheelbase than the saloon, the only problem when they were painted black is they looked like they should be carrying a coffin with 2 solemn looking chaps sat up front sporting top hats.

Grand estates - Avant

"I seem to recall that I read recently that the Insignia estate is being killed."

I hadn't seen that, but it doesn't surprise me. How many do you see on the road?

If someone (in this case more likely someone's fleet manager) wants a big Vauxhall wagon, then they'll go for one of the SUVs. I think there's one bigger one and two others of much the same size, sold in competition with each other as only Vauxhall can.

Grand estates - expat
If someone (in this case more likely someone's fleet manager) wants a big Vauxhall wagon, then they'll go for one of the SUVs. I think there's one bigger one and two others of much the same size, sold in competition with each other as only Vauxhall can.

SUVs are not a good substitute for an estate. They don't have the length in the back. On paper they have lots of boot space but a lot of that is height which is not as useful as length.

As for the death of the Insignia estate. That was because Vauxhall and all of GM Europe have been bought by PSA. Probably the whole GM Europe range will die. If any survive it will only be as a name badge stuck on a PSA design.

Grand estates - DavidGlos
If memory serves, the current Astra estate had more boot capacity than the recently deleted Insignia estate, which may have been another nail in the latters coffin.
Grand estates - Trilogy.
If memory serves, the current Astra estate had more boot capacity than the recently deleted Insignia estate, which may have been another nail in the latters coffin.

Certainly the case with the previous generation.