Cars with soul

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Wed 15 Apr 2020 23:14
Cars with soul - SLO76
Yes I have been drinking and watching an old Top Gear DVD, a terrible combination to admit to but it gets me thinking of cars I loved yet shouldn’t, cars I know as a salesman would come back to bite me yet I loved them all the same.

Alfa Romeo GTV 3.0 - Based on a Fiat Tipo but with a monstrous V6 lump up front it was a recipe for disaster yet it looked wonderful and sounded fantastic which does forgive the nose heavy handling and terrible quality - sort of. I’d love one now.

Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo - As above but so powerful it literally pulls itself apart. Rust is a major issue now and body panels are unavailable. I convinced a friend to buy one recently just so I could have another shot of one and it was a joy to drive with that charismatic 5cyl burble. You could actually hear it rusting away under you as you drove along but this only made it faster. Sadly his was too far gone to save but it was a joy while it lasted.

Fiat Uno Turbo ie - A lightweight suicide machine. Mad top heavy handling and huge turbo-lag but it had real Italian bravado. I loved them for the ten minutes it would last before breaking.

Alfa Romeo 156 - All were beautiful and all a joy to pilot even the basic 1.6 twin spark. They did fall to pieces by the time they reached 7yrs old (if you were lucky) but it is to date probably the best modern day Alfa yet made,

Rover 827 Vitesse 5dr - Not really that sporty actually but it sounded good and went well in a straight line yet was cheap to buy used. Traction was lacking so front tyres would last minutes if you had a lead lined right foot.

Rover Metro GTi - Modern day Mini Cooper, a go-kart for the road but with comfy seats and central locking. None left so buying one today will cost the Crown Jewels but I had an irrational love for small hot hatches and these were actually very good.

Citroen AX GT - Made from recycled bog roll but so light that 85bhp felt terrifyingly quick. Actually not that fragile despite the initial feel but you did fear that every twitch of the right pedal would end in a call to the scrappy.

Rover 220 Turbo Tomcat - Never lift the bonnet, these were always covered in oil and often suffered from horrible gearbox problems. 200bhp in a chassis designed to handle 100 did result in tyre smoking understeer but it was attractive and fast which was good enough for me.

Renault 5 GT Turbo - Terrifyingly fragile and refused to start when hot but so much fun when it was working well that it was worth the pain.

Citroen BX GTi 16v - Not many left now as most have seen their engines pinched for 205 GTi transplants but these were a joy to drive back in the day. The terror came from the wait until some terminal suspension problem killed it or sent you through a hedge at too high a speed.


Peugeot 205 GTi 1.9 - A bit mad, a paperweight hatch with a stupidly big engine combined with a great chassis that had terrible lift-off oversteer that could (and likely would) land you through the nearest hedge. I loved these but never could figure out whether the 1.6 or 1.9 was the better car.

Vauxhall Astra GTE 16v - A car with a terrible chassis and a brilliant and hugely powerful engine = much hedge skimming terror. These were fast, even today with some testers getting sub 7sec 0-60 times from them back in the day. It would be quicker if such wonders as traction control had been invented but despite the coal age tech the digital dash made you think you were in the space age. To be fair they were very reliable but most buyers were back looking for a replacement soon after as they’d killed the thing by going unintentionally off-road.


MG Maestro turbo - Stupid, just stupid. A turbocharged car with a carburettor! Wouldn’t start when it was hot but when it did go, boy did it go and only in a straight line. These didn’t do corners well but it was insanely fast in a straight line.

Fiat Tipo 16v - Actually very good, had soul and worked well. None left so all proof has sadly gone to dust.

Edited by SLO76 on 15/04/2020 at 23:35

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 00:05
Cars with soul - Avant

Do you or does anyone think there's such a thing as a car with 'soul' (and I totally see what you mean here - different from a car that impresses, as per the other thread) yet doesn't rust, or break down, or come off the road, or all three?

All those on your list above are deeply flawed in one way or another: is that part of 'soul' perhaps?

I can think of cars like higher-powered BMWs and the Honda NSX whch are generally considered great to drive - but are they and their like too efficient to be 'soulful'?

I have to confess to not having ever been tempted by any of those above, with the possible exception of the 205 GTI - and even then if I'd needed that size of car I'd almost certainly have gone for a Golf GTI. Ah well - I trained as a chartered accountant, so, yes, I'm soulless.

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 00:23
Cars with soul - SLO76

Do you or does anyone think there's such a thing as a car with 'soul' (and I totally see what you mean here - different from a car that impresses, as per the other thread) yet doesn't rust, or break down, or come off the road, or all three?

All those on your list above are deeply flawed in one way or another: is that part of 'soul' perhaps?

I can think of cars like higher-powered BMWs and the Honda NSX whch are generally considered great to drive - but are they and their like too efficient to be 'soulful'?

I have to confess to not having ever been tempted by any of those above, with the possible exception of the 205 GTI - and even then if I'd needed that size of car I'd almost certainly have gone for a Golf GTI. Ah well - I trained as a chartered accountant, so, yes, I'm soulless.

No I’ll give you credit here the Mk I and Mk II Golf GTi had soul. Both were simple yet fun and only got better with miles.
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Thu 16 Apr 2020 08:14
Cars with soul - groaver

What about the Kia?

I'll get my coat....

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 08:17
Cars with soul - groaver

Actually, a lot of Fiats from the 60s and 70s had it in abundance.

Unfortunately it tended to rot away.

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 09:05
Cars with soul - John F

Cars with 'soul' are like the tempestuous love affairs of youth - fantastic when they go well, an expensive nightmare when they don't. Best ditched for a good steady well made long term model.

Edited by John F on 16/04/2020 at 09:06

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 09:21
Cars with soul - pd

The Uno, Rover 800, Metro, AX, Rover 200, Renault 5, Citroen BX were all big sellers of their day and none were considered flawed at the time.

In fact most were highly praised and considered as well built and as reliable as anything else around.

Yes, by today's standards they rusted in the end and had faults but so did pretty much anything else from that era.

One comment I don't agree with is the BX suspension. It actually wasn't that complicated and was probably one of the more reliable areas of the cars. In actual fact the BX was considered a pretty reliable car all round and sold very well. Rust got most of them in the end.

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 14:35
Cars with soul - Engineer Andy

What about the Kia?

I'll get my coat....

Cars with ironic names...still the Kia Soul will always be beaten by the Mitsubishi Carisma, a car without any.

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 15:13
Cars with soul - SLO76

What about the Kia?

I'll get my coat....

Cars with ironic names...still the Kia Soul will always be beaten by the Mitsubishi Carisma, a car without any.

I mind the first Carisma models coming in and not were we disappointed. Mitsubishi’s of the 80’s and 90’s were very well made and generally drove better than Jap rivals but this was the beginning of the downward spiral. They were utterly drab to look at and drive but they were reliable and great on fuel. The Colt that arrived at the same time was better made but not as solid or as nice to drive as the previous model. Later cars were worse quality wise but the suspension modifications did improve the handling and ride substantially.
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Thu 16 Apr 2020 15:43
Cars with soul - groaver

The Galant of that period was the highpoint of Mitsubishi design.

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 17:05
Cars with soul - Engineer Andy

What about the Kia?

I'll get my coat....

Cars with ironic names...still the Kia Soul will always be beaten by the Mitsubishi Carisma, a car without any.

I mind the first Carisma models coming in and not were we disappointed. Mitsubishi’s of the 80’s and 90’s were very well made and generally drove better than Jap rivals but this was the beginning of the downward spiral. They were utterly drab to look at and drive but they were reliable and great on fuel. The Colt that arrived at the same time was better made but not as solid or as nice to drive as the previous model. Later cars were worse quality wise but the suspension modifications did improve the handling and ride substantially.

Indeed - I test drove that previous gen Colt in 1.6 petrol form - great little car, shame it was, like the Honda Civic at the same time, blimmin expesive to buy and run, hence why I went with the Micra for my first car.

I too was unimpressed with the Colt's next version that wasn't as good, and was similar in looks to the (no) Carisma.

The early to mid 90s Colt 1.8 GTi was a seriously decent car, but way out of my price range and, if I recall, really expernsive to insure. A shame what's become of them - they used to be rather what Mazda has been over the last 15 years - decent cars that drove well.

(sorry to go a bit off-topic).

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 14:34
Cars with soul - Engineer Andy

The Pug 205 1.9 GTi - fond memories after learning in its slower brother, the 1.9D. My cousin had one and drove it like the clappers. I still remember the 'drive' from my parents' house to my uncle's for a birthday do with fond memories.

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Thu 16 Apr 2020 16:39
Cars with soul - concrete

Of all the cars I have driven or owned the one that I really felt 'part' of was my Porsche 911. A lovely air cooled flat six engine with lots of poke. Comfortable seats and easy to drive once used to the strange 'H' plus one configuration because it was a 5 speed box. First was bottom left immediately below reverse. When getting away quickly care had to be taken to make sure you hit the gate and a bit right and up into second. Weird. The car though was a real delight and I suppose it could be construed as 'soul'. Pity some idiot ran into the rear end and wrote it off. I was considering keeping it for as long as possible as a toy. Had to buy a saloon car when family started to emerge. Cheers Concrete

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 10:52
Cars with soul - craig-pd130

The 5GT Turbo was a fabulous car, it was so light and chuckable (and flimsy too). Because the turbo set-up was relatively crude, it was always huge fun when the revcounter hit 3,000 and the boost gauge moved off its stop, it felt like an afterburner kicking in.

Capri 2.8i or 3.0 V6s were crackers too.

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 11:09
Cars with soul - Bolt

Capri 2.8i or 3.0 V6s were crackers too.

Terrible suspension though, rear end was all over the place if you took a corner too quick, but do know someone who put the 2.8i into a mk5 Cortina and customised the body, though it was a waste as it got written off 3 years later....looked nice though did a really good job

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 11:24
Cars with soul - Avant

Yes, of course, Concrete - how could I have forgotten Porsche in my post up the thread? Plenty of 'soul', and no reputation for rust or unreliability, although I'm sure older ones need a lot of TLC.

Sadly the only Porsche I've even driven was the one model that was short on 'soul' - the original 924. Back in the early 1980s a colleague needed to borrow my big estate car and I got his 924 for a week-end. It looked great but the engine was the same as in my neighbour's works Volkswagen van. It didn't go noticeably faster than my Renault.

But I don't think a 911 has ever disappointed.

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 12:02
Cars with soul - SLO76
“ But I don't think a 911 has ever disappointed.”

Yeah, agree. Think the list I originally posted was influenced a bit too much by rum as it has a few questionable cars on it and a load missing. The 911, though I’ve only driven one is a great drivers car and deserving of mention along with a fair number of others from Fiat Panda 100hp through most modern day fast Ford’s to most modern Ferrari’s. It’s not about price though as simple cars can have soul too.



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Fri 17 Apr 2020 13:39
Cars with soul - John F
“ But I don't think a 911 has ever disappointed.”

I never liked them. They were well able to disappoint by reversing off corners at high speed into a tree. No space, overpriced and an engine that sounded like nuts and bolts rattling in a biscuit tin. I drove one once about 40yrs ago - that was enough. However, the engineering was admirable, especially the legendary 917.

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 15:14
Cars with soul - bazza

The keys I always pick up if available and I'm nipping out are always those for our 12 year old Fiat Panda 1.1, which I nominate. There's something about the car that is absolutely delightful, it has that excited and enthusiastic feel about it like a spaniel puppy, it always makes me smile and drive simply for the sake of it. Every trip feels like you're in a world cup rally car, even at normal speeds which in something like our civic are completely forgettable. The Italians know how to build fun into a small car!

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 15:58
Cars with soul - concrete

I didn't have a problem keeping it on the road. I had a bag of sand strapped down in the front 'boot' to give a bit better weight distribution. I am also a decent driver and know when to push and when to wait. As my police driver friend used to say; Go in fast, don't come out- Go in slower, come out fast. Good advice. This was a 1972 model I had and a 5 speed gearbox was unusual then. The engineering was good. Maybe I have forgotten but I do not remember the engine sounding harsh. As for space, well the boot was limited but I bought it as a sports car so did not expect the attributes of a saloon although I used it as an everyday car. It was more expensive to keep than a box standard saloon but that is the price we pay for that type of car. I took it to Germany when I worked in Cologne. A bar I used was frequented by Ford engineers, whose development department was in Cologne. One day one of them asked me if he could drive my Porsche for while and I could use his development car. It was a 2.8 fuel injected Capri. This was 1974. We both went out and had a decent drive for an hour or so. Upon returning he genuinely asked me to do a swop. I turned him down. he loved the Porsche and the Capri was fine, in a straight line, a bit riskier on corners until you mastered the understeer and the huge power to the rear wheels. During the fuel crisis in 1974 there was a national speed limit of 50mph. The car was virtually ticking over in fifth gear at that speed. The fuel consumption was very impressive. Always promised myself another, but it wasn't to be. Life and family gets in the way. same old story. Very happy memories though of a car with 'soul'.

Cheers Concrete

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Fri 17 Apr 2020 19:45
Cars with soul - Big John

re the Capri I had a mkII many moons ago (2.0 Ghia auto) which looked the part but for the time was never mechanically as good as the Cortina of the day that had much better suspension - (still a live solid rear axle though). The Capri suspension was leaf springs(aka cart!) and the front setup never seemed sorted - the higher performance versions were good widow makers.

The body design of the mkIII/IV/V Cortina was way superior eg bulkhead design meant the Cortina had way way better refinement.

The car I've owned that had the most "soul" was probably my 948cc 1961 Morris Minor - it was the slow but it somehow had a real charm. Don't know what it was about it.

Edited by Big John on 17/04/2020 at 20:08

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Sat 18 Apr 2020 00:03
Cars with soul - Avant

I know where you're coming from about the Morris Minor, Big John. I never owned one but I think it was a combination of things that made it a bit special.

It came from the era when (due to the excellent SU carburettor) it would start first time, hot or cold, provided it was properly maintained. Fords, Vauxhalls and Hillmans were still awful at starting.

The Minor 1000 had a better gearchange than anything British Leyland produced then or thereafter.

You could have it as a convertible or the very useful half-timbered Traveller, with its flat floor and sensibly shaped load area.

And there was that glorious flatulent sound made by the exhaust of Minor 1000s on the overrun.

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Sat 18 Apr 2020 09:27
Cars with soul - SLO76
Liked the Minor, I think many ‘cars of the people’ like the Minor, Mini, Fiat 500, Panda, Citroen 2CV and Renault 4 all have soul.
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Sat 18 Apr 2020 12:24
Cars with soul - John F

concrete's story above about the early 70s reminds me of spending all my 1972 savings (£350) on a tatty old Jaguar XK120 DHC which I think had been cannibalised to restore a proper one. But it had a glorious powertrain and easily passed the then rudimentary MoT and I didn't need a reliable car for work. I once even drove it to Le Mans (the glorious summer of '76 - hood down all the way) - and around the circuit after the race ('security' was virtually non-existent in those innocent days). It certainly had 'soul' but, sadly, it had to go on marriage. Fortunately it had appreciated sufficiently to pay half the cost of my more practical and reliable TR7. I often wonder if it still exists but I suspect its chassis was too far gone to be worth restoring. Unfortunately the TR7 has failed to appreciate in value!

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Sat 18 Apr 2020 16:33
Cars with soul - concrete

concrete's story above about the early 70s reminds me of spending all my 1972 savings (£350) on a tatty old Jaguar XK120 DHC which I think had been cannibalised to restore a proper one. But it had a glorious powertrain and easily passed the then rudimentary MoT and I didn't need a reliable car for work. I once even drove it to Le Mans (the glorious summer of '76 - hood down all the way) - and around the circuit after the race ('security' was virtually non-existent in those innocent days). It certainly had 'soul' but, sadly, it had to go on marriage. Fortunately it had appreciated sufficiently to pay half the cost of my more practical and reliable TR7. I often wonder if it still exists but I suspect its chassis was too far gone to be worth restoring. Unfortunately the TR7 has failed to appreciate in value!

If you remember the registration number there is probably a way to see if it still running. If only we could have kept those cars at the time. I probably could have kept the Porsche until a drunken idiot drove into the rear end and wrote it off. It would be worth a decent amount now I should think. But an XK would really be worth big money. Alas when we take up with the ladies the dynamic changes somewhat. I wouldn't change much though.

Cheers Concrete

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Mon 20 Apr 2020 17:25
Cars with soul - John F

concrete's story above about the early 70s reminds me of spending all my 1972 savings (£350) on a tatty old Jaguar XK120 DHC .......

If you remember the registration number there is probably a way to see if it still running.

At last. After trawling through umpteen old yellow boxes of Kodachrome 2 slides (remember those?) I found a photo. POC 263. No luck on googling. It may have gone abroad (just after I sold it I got a disappointed call from Belgium) but more likely turned to rust. Anyway, helped to pass lock-down time.

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Sat 18 Apr 2020 18:59
Cars with soul - Senexdriver

My first car was a 1952 Morris Minor, which I bought for £25 in 1969 from a neighbour. It would originally have had a side valve engine of some sort but during its lifetime the engine had been replaced with a Gold Seal 803 cc OHV unit. It was a marvellous little thing and absolutely true to everything Avant says about the model. A few years later my Dad bought a 1966 model with the 1098 cc engine and what a lovely little car that was. The surprising thing was that the overall feel of my Dad’s car was so similar to mine. Updated over the years the Morry Thou’ was a wonderful car.

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Tue 21 Apr 2020 18:40
Cars with soul - Engineer Andy

The red one with the white stripe. :-)

I still have the 'Matchbox' version...

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