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I have recently (3 months ago) made the change from a diesel XF to a used Tesla model S, do about 1500 miles a month across the UK.
Charging at our satellite office from the standard 3 pin plug (2Kw) gives me about 6 miles of extra range per hour of charging - but its free. our head office has 7kw charger units which give about 30 miles of range per hour charging - also free at the moment.
where the Teslas really win is the supercharger stations with well over 100Kw giving around 300 miles range in an hour of charging.
The Tesla practice of charging large per minute idle fees at its chargers once the battery is fully charged is a great way of making sure people don't abuse the charging bays. you get a warning via the phone app to move your car once it is charged.
have not had to change my routine much since changing to electric, I make sure that the services that i stop for lunch at have a supercharger (the cars satnav will also schedule supercharger stops as needed)
Drove 300 miles yesterday from Cardiff to the South Lakes, probably took 20 minutes extra compared to when I used to make the trip with the XF. Shouldn't take any extra time at all when temperatures rise in the summer as the range will increase
not sure that I would have gone for an electric car that wasn't as good as the Tesla in other areas though. the autopilot system is really good for long drives. Had Tesla produced a plug in hybrid alternative I would have probably gone that route instead as some areas in the UK are still thin on the ground for chargers.
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Where the Teslas really win is the supercharger stations with well over 100Kw giving around 300 miles range in an hour of charging.
I think that sums it up: even with a 'supercharger' the fill-up time is at least 10 times more than for equivalent petrol. As long as that is true, recharging at a public station will not be a feasible option unless there are many more outlets - and many stations already have ten or more of those. Hyperchargers - say 500Kw - would call for huge cabling, and we know what the price of copper is, controlled largely by the Chinese.
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Yes, Tesla have the long range market sorted out. If the luxury brands want to compete in this area the fast charging fiasco needs to be resolved. At the other end of the spectrum, electric could work well for the second car, smaller batteries are adequate for shopping trips if there are charging points in the car parks for those who can't charge at home. The trouble is that there is a huge gap in between......
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Opec's current price cuts (Brent down 20% + today) means oil is going to be at 1991 prices for a while.
Will make EVs appear more expensive to run.. How long willl it last? With Covid-19 slashing demand, at least a year.
Just saying.....
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The current low price of oil will make little difference to the comparison with EVs.
Very roughly the price of petrol per litre before the current crisis was as follows:
- Duty - 58p
- Cost of fuel (say) - 30p
- Retailer margin (say) - 12p
- VAT at 20% on costs of £1.00 - 20p
- Total price per litre - £1.20p
If fuel cost goes down to 15p from 30p, the impact on the price per litre would be:
- Saving in fuel cost - 15p
- Saving in VAT at 20% - 3p
- Total saving over current price per litre - 18p
It makes a difference but is hardly a game changer!
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Reading about the new Porsche Taycan and it's electrical system. On an 800V charging station, it will go from 5-80% charge in 22.5 minutes.
Unfortunately, there are only a couple of those in the UK!.
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Reading about the new Porsche Taycan and it's electrical system. On an 800V charging station, it will go from 5-80% charge in 22.5 minutes.
Unfortunately, there are only a couple of those in the UK!.
But on a standard 13 amp plug will take a whole day to charge
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Couldn’t justify the cost of a Tesla myself for my journeys but have recently bought a 40kW Nissan Leaf and my experience is similar. I’ve a 45 mile round trip to work where I can charge cheaply on a rapid or at a local supermarket for free. Home domestic charger puts about 5% an hour into the leaf and tops up fully overnight if I need to, no need for a dedicated supply unless you want a quicker charge. I’ve a longer 200 mile round trip every couple of weeks and have no problem topping up, fast charge takes about 30 minutes which is about the length of time we stop for a break anyway. One of the things I was worried about before buying was charger availability, it’s only when you research that you realise there’s a lot more than you think. As with all things, it might not suit you but it did for me and works for what I need..
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Absolutely Nigpet, that is the way to do it, it suits you and you are able to take advantage of extremely cheap or even free recharging and all at your convenience, if and when that happy situation changes you'll no doubt have a rethink, this is how we should all be viewing our car purchases, by what suits us individually and not by what we are told we should have by anyone else whether govt lackey or sales bod.
We've run LPG on at least one of the cars for several years, it suits us but it wouldn't necessarily suit everyone.
Each to their own, there are no hard and fast answers here.
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To charge an electric car at home, you will need a home charging point installed where you park your electric car, or an EVSE supply cable for a 3 pin plug socket as an occasional back up.
I am trying to find out the cost of doing this now, I will get back to you.
They want to know the make and model of the car, and will only tell you if you ask for a quote, so I hve use a ford focus as an example, bt I find it suspicious that they do not give a ball park figure, also it tells me that with grants you may be able to get £ 500 off, so if thats the discount then what is the cost, as I said I will get back to you..
Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 16/03/2020 at 15:21
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Phew that was hard work, lots of places to look for commercial installation but precious little for domestic, but I did find 1 cost quoted online and they said with a 75% gov grant it will cost you only £ 500.
https://www.eocharging.com/eo-mini-pro?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI4_K-sqaf6AIVSPhRCh1ESgAEEAAYBSAAEgLC5PD_BwE
For the other 3 you will have to get a quote from the other 3 listed, of which I called 1 and they said they do not do it yet for residential properties.
The other charge you will have to add, is the battery replacement ( this is not a typo, and the subject has been covered in a previous post ), in my research various sites said that the batteries only last on average between 1'000'000 and 2'000'000 miles, as its an average there are cases above and below that range, the COST of replacing these batteries was between £ 1'000 & 6'000 pounds ( again an average ), so if you want to keep it til it drops then thats another cost you might need to think about.
If someone had one that needed the batteries replacing they might sell it rather then pay that cost ( just a thought )
So does the savings in fuel justify all this plus the extra cost of getting an electric/hybrid car over its traditional counterpart, in my opinion no, but tt really depends on how much milage you do and even then it is a close call.
On another note I hate, totally hate the way the gov is trying to ban traditional cars from going anywhere, to try and bully us all into going electric.
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"Some of the longest serving EVs are now 20 years old and still working on their original batteries. However, performance will drop off and most drivers and experts feel that when a battery drops below 75 percent of its original ability it is due for replacement. That could be many years before it happens as there are plenty of EVs in daily use that have notched up more than 100,000 miles and are still going strong.
Makers of EVs are also sufficiently confident in the batteries to offer long warranties. In most cases, that cover extends to eight years and 100,000 miles, though some such as Tesla offer an unlimited mileage warranty over eight years."
This is a quote, while it gives lots of information, and opinion, they fail to even give an example of how much the batteries will cost to replace after 8 years.
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"Around three quarters of electric car owners have a fast charger installed at home. This charges up the car’s battery about two and half times more quickly than attaching the car via a standard domestic three-pin socket, so it’s worth having. Reckon on spending between"
Another quote, also add the cost of the electric used to charge it up as well, if you have ever plugged in a commercial power tool and seen how the wheel "takes off" inside the meter, then watch it go when you charge your car up.
Edited by A Driver since 1988, HGV 2006 on 16/03/2020 at 16:05
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JoeB <Pricing domestic electricity at different rates for different uses will be difficult and open to fraud>
Dunno about that; what do you think smart meters are for .... there you go; a bit more fuel for your conspiracy theories:)
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JoeB <Pricing domestic electricity at different rates for different uses will be difficult and open to fraud>
Dunno about that; what do you think smart meters are for .... there you go; a bit more fuel for your conspiracy theories:)
So the Smart meter is smart enough to determine whether the electricity is going into a storage heater or an EV? No. Expect the domestic electricity to cost the same. Revenue will be raised by GPS-based PAYG road charging with different rates for different roads/times.
Edited by JoeB on 16/03/2020 at 21:47
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JoeB <Pricing domestic electricity at different rates for different uses will be difficult and open to fraud>
Dunno about that; what do you think smart meters are for .... there you go; a bit more fuel for your conspiracy theories:)
So the Smart meter is smart enough to determine whether the electricity is going into a storage heater or an EV? No. Expect the domestic electricity to cost the same. Revenue will be raised by GPS-based PAYG road charging with different rates for different roads/times.
No course not, but they can fit a separate smart meter to charger which would be more accurate for them to work the cost out...far better than road pricing imo
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Where tax revenue is involved you can guarantee there will be a foolproof system that tells the smart meter something that requires taxing at around 60%+ is connected, there will be people who try it on as there always is, and there will be people who find out the hard way just how much power both inland revenue and customs and excise have.
They haven't been pushing smart meters for the fun of it.
Road pricing might feature but smart meters will automate tax collection so no need to spend the £billions required, then again the current chancellor appears to have found some previously undiscovered croydon money trees so cost is no longer an issue, one thing is certain the govt will recoup and increase the lost revenues from fossil fuels.
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Where tax revenue is involved you can guarantee there will be a foolproof system that tells the smart meter something that requires taxing at around 60%+ is connected, there will be people who try it on as there always is, and there will be people who find out the hard way just how much power both inland revenue and customs and excise have.
They haven't been pushing smart meters for the fun of it.
Sorry but you are wrong. The majority of smart meters installed in the UK do not have the capability to identify the nature of the connected load. They are not that smart. The aim is time-based metering/pricing to push consumption away from peak time and so even out demand. Of course it would be possible to hardwire a separate charger circuit to a different tariff register in the meter (similar to Economy 7) - but a couple of nails and a decent pair of jump leads could overcome that. In some parts of the country (think areas with lots of ethnic takeaways) more than half the electricity is already unmetered - smart meters have not put a dent in that.
Road pricing is attractive because it requires very little infrastructure. The GPS signal is already there. Each car just needs a telematic device which records time-stamped location data and periodically uploads it to the billing system. These devices already exist and are used by insurance companies. Governments are itching to introduce road pricing. The EU have already developed a pan-European road pricing platform and charging protocol.
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<The EU have already developed a pan-European road pricing platform and charging protocol>
Which is optional for each member state so I guess we won't be adopting that as we are now out of the union etc etc
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In some parts of the country (think areas with lots of ethnic takeaways) more than half the electricity is already unmetered - smart meters have not put a dent in that.
That is interesting. Can you show us where you got those figures?
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In some parts of the country (think areas with lots of ethnic takeaways) more than half the electricity is already unmetered - smart meters have not put a dent in that.
That is interesting. Can you show us where you got those figures?
I'd be interested in a source for that assertion too.
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Where tax revenue is involved you can guarantee there will be a foolproof system that tells the smart meter something that requires taxing at around 60%+ is connected, there will be people who try it on as there always is, and there will be people who find out the hard way just how much power both inland revenue and customs and excise have.
They haven't been pushing smart meters for the fun of it.
Sorry but you are wrong. The majority of smart meters installed in the UK do not have the capability to identify the nature of the connected load. They are not that smart. The aim is time-based metering/pricing to push consumption away from peak time and so even out demand. Of course it would be possible to hardwire a separate charger circuit to a different tariff register in the meter (similar to Economy 7) - but a couple of nails and a decent pair of jump leads could overcome that. In some parts of the country (think areas with lots of ethnic takeaways) more than half the electricity is already unmetered - smart meters have not put a dent in that.
Road pricing is attractive because it requires very little infrastructure. The GPS signal is already there. Each car just needs a telematic device which records time-stamped location data and periodically uploads it to the billing system. These devices already exist and are used by insurance companies. Governments are itching to introduce road pricing. The EU have already developed a pan-European road pricing platform and charging protocol.
Road pricing is a bad idea. It penalises people for where and when they travel - many of whom have no other viable option.
Just do it (tax) via the fuel price (whether fossil fuels or electricity) because it will always be proportional to the amount we use and the efficiency of the vehicle. VED should in the same vein be scrapped, rather like 'standing charges' for utlitiy firms. Besides, taxing the fuel is simple.
That's also why I was always enthusiastic about the use of 'passenger mileage rates' for work, because then (whether using for work or privately to take a colleague/friend/relative somewhere) it actively encourages car-sharing, reducing both CO2 emissions and congestion.
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1. Road pricing is a bad idea. It penalises people for where and when they travel - many of whom have no other viable option.
2. Just do it (tax) via the fuel price (whether fossil fuels or electricity) because it will always be proportional to the amount we use and the efficiency of the vehicle.
3.VED should in the same vein be scrapped, rather like 'standing charges' for utlitiy firms.
1. Train fares penalise people for where and when they travel - many of whom commute into large cities and have no other viable option. How do you propose to put that right?
2. Road pricing will also always be proportional to the amount we use them. Vehicle efficiency is a different issue, not related to the cost of roads.
3. Standing charges cover the cost of providing the service which is there even if you hardly consume it. Same applies to providing roads.
There seem to be some holes in your logic.
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I don't think taxation on cars is a matter of logic - more about:
- cost and reliability of collection
- promoting the behaviours the government want
Road charging is technically feasible and I assume it is relatively easy to simply set up road side sensors to identify and photograph vehicles without one fitted. It could also have a database to record any outstanding payments - the police could either issue fixed penalties, points or as an extreme confiscate the vehicle. Benefit would be to shift road usage times to minimise congestion, reduce investment in new roads. Costs could also be set to reflect the vehicle being used - ICE, EV, size, weight etc.
Taxing electricity use properly reflects the use of the vehicle and its efficiency. In a connected world it does not need the electricity supply to register that the EV is being charged - it is entirely feasible that the vehicle can report when it is being charged (hacking opportunity!). Collection may be slightly easier than road charging as people already receive electricity bills. It would do nothing to change behaviours to reduce congestion, and investment.
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1. Road pricing is a bad idea. It penalises people for where and when they travel - many of whom have no other viable option.
2. Just do it (tax) via the fuel price (whether fossil fuels or electricity) because it will always be proportional to the amount we use and the efficiency of the vehicle.
3.VED should in the same vein be scrapped, rather like 'standing charges' for utlitiy firms.
1. Train fares penalise people for where and when they travel - many of whom commute into large cities and have no other viable option. How do you propose to put that right?
Train fares are not that different as to where you travel, the exception being London which subsidises fares. Peak fares are more what the costs actually are rather than deterrants, so lower off-peak fares are used to encourage people to travel (often for leisure) at other times. Few people can change when they work to take advantage of the lower off-peak fares. The fare pricing structure generally is daft and should be reviewed.
I should point out that despite all this, it is STILL cheaper than going by car for the most part, if depreciation, servicing and especially parking is taken into consideration.
2. Road pricing will also always be proportional to the amount we use them. Vehicle efficiency is a different issue, not related to the cost of roads.
No it won't because certain roads will be more expensive than others, meaning person A and person B living next door to eachother but working in different towns/cities (but the same distance away) would pay different prices because one road is charging more than another.
IMHO, vehicle efficiency is important, because a small, efficient car uses less fuel or electricity to reach their destination, thus polluting less. That will only change when we make 100% of electricty using completely green tech and all have EVs. A larger, heavier and perhaps more powerful vehicle will cause more wear and damage to a road than a smaller, lighter one, thus should pay more, and that normally is reasonably related to how efficient it uses its fuel.
3. Standing charges cover the cost of providing the service which is there even if you hardly consume it. Same applies to providing roads.
There seem to be some holes in your logic.
I don't think so. Why should I pay a large amount (I pay £230pa for VED) when my car currently does only 2-3k miles per year? My car doesn't pollute (by CO2) twice as much as many far newer cars, yet they only pay £30 (or the latest £145, which is more reasonable).
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<< ... certain roads will be more expensive than others, meaning person A and person B living next door to each other but working in different towns/cities (but the same distance away) would pay different prices because one road is charging more than another. >>
So what, that's competition, usually a Good Thing ? Normally there is more than one route to either A or B, so drivers will probably choose the cheapest, which may well be the slowest. That would probably not help congestion.
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Singapore uses road pricing. All the cars and motorcycles are fitted with a gadget for that. They also have an auction system if you want to buy a car. Only a certain number of cars are allowed to be registered each year and purchasers have to bid to be allowed to register one. Mind you Singapore is a special case as it is so small and congested, however it certainly is well organised. I only visit there as a tourist so I may have got some details wrong. No doubt someone who has lived there will be along soon to update us.
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