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My cambelt (first one I've had come to think on't) doesn't run in oil, at least not by design.
I'm surprised and disappointed that any do, though I suppose it would save an oil seal or two.
A newish idea?
Cambelt outside the crankcase not stupid enough for them?
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Not really a new idea. Ford started using Bio system about 10 years ago. Other makers have since followed. Cant see the point of engine flush. If the correct oil is used and changed at the correct intervals , there is no need for it.
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I last saw black sludge in a £500 Ford Fiesta my son bought as acheap runaround. The sludge was about 5mms thick on top of teh cylinde head.
It ran for three years - with regular oil and filter changes - and by the end the sludge had gone. No flushing oil used..
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I last saw black sludge in a £500 Ford Fiesta my son bought as acheap runaround. The sludge was about 5mms thick on top of teh cylinde head.
It ran for three years - with regular oil and filter changes - and by the end the sludge had gone. No flushing oil used..
Similarly, i've gone back to proper Diesel specific engine oils in my Diesel, since then the length of time it takes for the oil to darken has progressively lengthened, this can only be the DEO doing its job and cleaning up carbon previously building up inside the crankcase, the vehicle wasn't neglected before but will have had normal 5w30 when serviced.
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I last saw black sludge in a £500 Ford Fiesta my son bought as acheap runaround. The sludge was about 5mms thick on top of teh cylinde head.
It ran for three years - with regular oil and filter changes - and by the end the sludge had gone. No flushing oil used..
Similarly, i've gone back to proper Diesel specific engine oils in my Diesel, since then the length of time it takes for the oil to darken has progressively lengthened, this can only be the DEO doing its job and cleaning up carbon previously building up inside the crankcase, the vehicle wasn't neglected before but will have had normal 5w30 when serviced.
My petrol engine lost varnish over 6 years with a 1:1 mix of Mobile Delvac MX 15W40 (a diesel spec oil, though SJ eqivalent) and CPC SAE 40, ditto.
A few short change intervals with the Delvac alone didn't shift it.
I think the CPC is a Group I oil. These are relatively unstable but they are also better solvents due to the polar compounds, which may explain the varnish removal.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4884308/1
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Not really a new idea. Ford started using Bio system about 10 years ago.
That's really new to me.
(My car is 1986, and a bit too modern for my taste)
Funny, but if I'd had to take a guess on who to blame, I'd have picked Ford.
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My cambelt (first one I've had come to think on't) doesn't run in oil, at least not by design.
I'm surprised and disappointed that any do, though I suppose it would save an oil seal or two.
A newish idea?
Advantages - quieter running, more efficient power transfer, no need for a guide like a chain so lightweight.
Supposed to have a 150k lifespan (but what happens if it snaps before then, apparently it can send parts of the cambelt around the oil system).
All geared towards continuing quest for better efficiency.
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My cambelt (first one I've had come to think on't) doesn't run in oil, at least not by design.
I'm surprised and disappointed that any do, though I suppose it would save an oil seal or two.
A newish idea?
Advantages - quieter running, more efficient power transfer, no need for a guide like a chain so lightweight.
Supposed to have a 150k lifespan (but what happens if it snaps before then, apparently it can send parts of the cambelt around the oil system).
All geared towards continuing quest for better efficiency.
quiter running : don't care
more efficient power transfer : Don't believe it. A belt shouldn't need oiling, and there'll be some viscous drag from the oil
no need for a guide like a chain so lightweight.: Doesn't seem specific to BIO
Supposed to have a 150k lifespan (but what happens if it snaps before then, apparently it can send parts of the cambelt around the oil system). : Doesn't matter. If the belt snaps in most cases the engine is toast anyway.
All geared towards continuing quest for better efficiency. Depends what that means. It'll be cheaper, sure.
Edited by edlithgow on 03/03/2020 at 00:31
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quiter running : don't care
more efficient power transfer : Don't believe it. A belt shouldn't need oiling, and there'll be some viscous drag from the oil
no need for a guide like a chain so lightweight.: Doesn't seem specific to BIO
Supposed to have a 150k lifespan (but what happens if it snaps before then, apparently it can send parts of the cambelt around the oil system). : Doesn't matter. If the belt snaps in most cases the engine is toast anyway.
All geared towards continuing quest for better efficiency. Depends what that means. It'll be cheaper, sure.
All information was quoted from a couple of websites, I'm not backing the system personally, so have a pop at the manufacturers.
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quiter running : don't care
more efficient power transfer : Don't believe it. A belt shouldn't need oiling, and there'll be some viscous drag from the oil
no need for a guide like a chain so lightweight.: Doesn't seem specific to BIO
Supposed to have a 150k lifespan (but what happens if it snaps before then, apparently it can send parts of the cambelt around the oil system). : Doesn't matter. If the belt snaps in most cases the engine is toast anyway.
All geared towards continuing quest for better efficiency. Depends what that means. It'll be cheaper, sure.
All information was quoted from a couple of websites, I'm not backing the system personally, so have a pop at the manufacturers.
Already did that (anti-Ford crack above) but maybe that was just knee-jerk Luddite-ism.
A belt that ought to last for ever, as claimed in Leckies link, is clearly a better bet than a chain that ought to last for ever, especially if it can be retrofitted to cars originally fitted with belts that bust.
Whats not clear from Leckies link is why its better to run the belt in oil.
I suppose there'll be a slight reduction in wear at the pulleys and some sound deadening, but I'd still think the main advantage is likely to be cheaper manufacture, which isn't of much interest to me, as a banger buyer.
If you don't need a crankshaft oil seal between the timing case and crank case, I suppose that eliminates a point of failure, which is a notional advantage, all things being equal (which of course they never are).
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Making your own flushing oil by adding about 10% diesel or paraffin ( kerosene) to low grade engine oil is an archaic practice from the 50's and 60's to dissolve and flush sludge from oil crankcases and sumps. This was before engine oils had dispersant additives that held contamination in suspension to allow it be removed with an oil change.
Totally unnecessary nowadays if oil is changed regularly.
I have used it on a couple of occasions years ago as a "last chance saloon" fix for really old neglected clunkers for impecunious punters at their own risk.
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Anyone on here seen a can of flush itemised on their service bill?
Presumably adding anything to the oil would cause it to be out of spec and leave components vulnerable to whatever issues the correct spec oil was designed to avoid and invalidate any warranty?
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Local main Skoda dealer at least asked me if I wanted flushing oil at my annual service. I declined.
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Absolutely no need for engine 'flushing' these days. Could possibly do more harm than good. A few early Peugeot 1.2 puretechs were blighted by poor belt quality resulting in a few reports of belt debris blocking oil passages. I would like to have been a fly on the wall at a meeting with their cambelt suppliers! Apparently this problem was solved with better attention to belt construction. I hope so, because we have a new 1.2 puretech in a 2008. There must be umpteen thousand of them around with high mileages by now and I haven't seen more than one or two isolated old reports.
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Absolutely no need for engine 'flushing' these days. Could possibly do more harm than good. A few early Peugeot 1.2 puretechs were blighted by poor belt quality resulting in a few reports of belt debris blocking oil passages. I would like to have been a fly on the wall at a meeting with their cambelt suppliers! Apparently this problem was solved with better attention to belt construction. I hope so, because we have a new 1.2 puretech in a 2008. There must be umpteen thousand of them around with high mileages by now and I haven't seen more than one or two isolated old reports.
Coincidence, the car in question was a 1.2 DS. The car was still under warranty when the belt did what ever it did to wreck the engine and the owner was told warranty was void because an engine flush had been used. No idea how they knew that.
I appreciate it seems odd that flush should have been used on a newish car. Perhaps the owner was "being cautious"!
Years ago there was a thread on this site which would have put anyone off using flush. The gist of it was that some would always be left in the oil ways after draining. I am surprised it is only thin oil I would have thought some sort of solvent would be required in the mix.
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I am surprised it is only thin oil I would have thought some sort of solvent would be required in the mix.
Ah, i thought the question was about flushing oil, not an additive which is chucked into the existing oil to thin it down in order to do something or other, not for me thanks.
Whatever i used if i did this i'd buy a can of el cheapo engine oil and run that through the system for an hour or so after the flushing stuff was drained, then drain it again and refill with the correct oil.
Edited by gordonbennet on 02/03/2020 at 19:55
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Presumably adding anything to the oil would cause it to be out of spec and leave components vulnerable to whatever issues the correct spec oil was designed to avoid and invalidate any warranty?
I presume in your OP you meant a cam-chain, not a belt? I can't imagine any belt surviving for long in oil. And after using flushing oil it is drained off and replaced with the proper stuff (as I understand it).
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The OP is spot www.ngfeurope.com/~/media/NGF%20Europe/Site%20Cont...x
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The OP is spot www.ngfeurope.com/~/media/NGF%20Europe/Site%20Cont...x
Thanks Elekie, very interesting link.
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Whilst its an interesting concept this belt in oil, i'd much rather well designed external belts to be easy change, and made the job of the belt easier too by not driving other things like water pumps where the belt has to flex at all angles in its travels.
ie on Toyota 3.0 Litre 4 pot Diesel which went in thousands of their 4x4's worldwide for some 2 decades, the cambelt only drives the camshafts and nothing else bar the necessary idler and tensioner, its the work of 1 hour, even DIY, to change the belt, don't even need to remove the auxilliary drive belt though its sensible to renew that at the same time.
All makers could do this if they put their minds to it, best of all worlds, quiet accurate and reliable with cheap 90k easy change intervals.
Edited by gordonbennet on 02/03/2020 at 11:55
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My 1.4tsi engine indeed has an oil immersed cam belt.
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My 1.4tsi engine indeed has an oil immersed cam belt.
The 1.0 TSi in our Fabia is not immersed in oil and as far as I am aware neither is the 1.5 and newer 1.5 TSi.
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You’re probably correct . The cam belt is not immersed in oil , but on some models, the belt that drives the oil pump, is.
Edited by elekie&a/c doctor on 02/03/2020 at 17:50
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The OP is spot www.ngfeurope.com/~/media/NGF%20Europe/Site%20Cont...x
Thanks Elekie, very interesting link.
Yes, especially the mention of the importance of belt material, and the picture showing a perfect cam belt design - well wrapped round the crank sprocket and driving nothing but its tensioner and a couple of camshafts. I feel sorry for all those who put their cars in for a cheap cambelt change 'just to be on the safe side' involving merely the replacement of a well made barely worn original belt with a cheap inferior product, possibly with incorrect retiming and with catastrophic damage a few thousand miles later. There's been a good few of those stories on here since that article was written eight years ago.
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Anyone on here seen a can of flush itemised on their service bill?
Presumably adding anything to the oil would cause it to be out of spec and leave components vulnerable to whatever issues the correct spec oil was designed to avoid and invalidate any warranty?
That's a big presumption, and pretty much untestable and indetectable, so you'll never know.,
In any case AFAIK these flushes are only in the engine for a short time, though there'll be some carry over.
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Making your own flushing oil by adding about 10% diesel or paraffin ( kerosene) to low grade engine oil is an archaic practice from the 50's and 60's to dissolve and flush sludge from oil crankcases and sumps. This was before engine oils had dispersant additives that held contamination in suspension to allow it be removed with an oil change.
Totally unnecessary nowadays if oil is changed regularly.
I have used it on a couple of occasions years ago as a "last chance saloon" fix for really old neglected clunkers for impecunious punters at their own risk.
Well, its archaic and unecessary apart from when it isn't.
Here's someone reviving a badly (actually surprisingly badly. Hard to believe its just from sitting) sludged Cuore with straight diesel, followed by a flush.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqZqjc2aNfo
I'd have dropped the sump, (in fact I have, at least thrice, PITA though it is) but he seems to have got away with it.
(His brake vid is of interest to me because they look very similar to the Skywings undocumented ones)
Edited by edlithgow on 03/03/2020 at 08:34
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Consider a case where an engine is badly gunged up - as the Fiesta I quoted above.
You flush it, drain and the flushed oil and refill with nice new oil.
Now the flushing will not - and cannot - remove all the layers of sludge but may very well have loosened it.. So you risk a number of breakaway bits of sludge detaching and sticking somewhere - the oil filter - or more likely a narrow oil gallery - like a camshaft oilway..
oops..
So why use it on a slightly neglected engine when modern oils will do the job for you - although more slowly?
If cleaning an engine is vital, detach the sump and clean that.. and do lt the engine at changes so ALL the sump oil exits via the drain plug and is not left in the sump bottom..
( I do this on our diesel Yaris..Helps keep the new oil cleaner)
Edited by madf on 03/03/2020 at 10:24
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So why use it on a slightly neglected engine when modern oils will do the job for you - although more slowly?
In my experience with varnish (see above) not-so-modern (i.e. Group 1) oil seems to do the job rather better, if you have a car you can run it in.
Edited by edlithgow on 04/03/2020 at 00:48
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