ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks

Sat 16 Nov 2019 11:55

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Firmbutfair

When can we expect European car makers to implement fully effective cruise control and speed limiting systems in their cars? As it stands, conscientious motorists run the risk of receiving unwelcome speeding fines when going down hill (for example) even when either the speed limiter or cruise control mechanisms have been manually and correctly set and engaged.

Surely the car makers could modify the control algorithms currently employed in most volume production cars to gently apply the brakes when descending hills in order to prevent any significant speed increase (due to gravity) and thus keep the vehicle comfortably within ‘the guidelines and actual tolerances and limits’ used by UK Police Forces and Speed Camera Agencies?

A possible bone of contention here is the uncertainty of just what these guidelines currently are or going to be in the future - as witnessed by the recent removal of existing guidelines issued to Police Authorities (based loosely on the 10% plus 2 mph measure) and the short lived introduction more recently of so called ‘zero tolerance’ guidelines championed by the Road Safety Charity - Brake of namely ‘Get caught doing 1mph over any posted limit and you can say goodbye to at least one weeks wages and 3/6 points on your licence’. Understandably these 1mph limits have been challenged vigorously by UK motoring organisations such as the RAC and AA and as a result the BRAKE guidelines were withdrawn pending further review and consultation. However we are still left with it being down to the discretion of Chief Police Officers as to just what the limits are in any given county with several authorities refusing to disclose what limits they are applying!

Most modern cars have the ability to fully apply the brakes in an emergency to help avoid collisions, to offer hill start assistance to prevent roll back on hill starts and to selectively apply braking to individual wheels as part of a vehicle stability control or anti-skid mechanism.

We all agree that road safety needs to be enhanced and that autonomous systems and driving aids can help so it could be made compulsory for these systems to be installed in all new cars just as ABS is now a legal requirement. Indeed, some degree of retrospective modification might even be considered by means of a software upgrade if all that is required is a few extra lines of code in the ECU – properly validated and tested before release of course!

I imagine that this simple modification will not be widely implemented until there is sufficient public demand for it. What does the HJ Forum think of this PLEA?

Edited by Firmbutfair on 16/11/2019 at 12:04

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 12:54

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - badbusdriver

Maybe this is more of an issue on high performance or particulalry powerful cars, but i've never had an issue with speed 'running away' at main road speeds using cruise control. Our current car and previous two have had cruise, and i use it a lot, and i just don't find it a problem at all. The first of those, a Vauxhall Meriva 1.7CDTI with a manual gearbox, i don't have any specific memories about, though i'm sure if it had been prone to 'running away' going downhill, i would recall. The second, a Hyundai i30 1.6CRDi auto, i do specifically remember being impressed with how well the chosen speed was maintained using engine braking. Our current car, a Honda jazz CVT does have a noticeable lack of engine braking, but as it only has 102bhp, it isn't really an issue at main road speeds. Where i do find the speed creeping up is in lower speed limit area's going downhill but this is easily overcome by just slipping it into 'sport' mode when it will hold a hold a lower ratio giving the neccessary extra engine braking to keep the speed in check.

Bear in mind that if you so much as touch the brake pedal while using cruise, it will automatically disengage. So i'm not too sure how or if a system which actually used the brakes, could be made to work. With an EV or hybrid, it wouldn't be too hard as they already use methods other than the brakes themselves, to slow the car. But, for those cars, because of this, i very much doubt it would be a problem in the first place.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 14:33

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bolt

Some cars do runaway down hill but the driver usually brakes to control the speed of runaway which I know a lot of drivers wish was controlled by ecu, mostly because they are too lazy to press the brake pedal.

computers could and do control the car in most respects, but it depends how far you want to go, in this respect its to prevent speeders being caught out where they would normally let the car speed downhill without a worry.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 21 Nov 2019 22:45

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - sandy56

Yes there are a lot of idiots out there.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 14:21

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - CHarkin

Car speedos are nowhere near accurate enough to register a 1mph difference and their accuracy depends on tyre inflation and tread depth. We would need a whole new system for measuring a cars speed to enforce a no tolerance law.

As far as I know it was the inherent inaccuracy of cars speedos and the enforcement hardware that led to the 10% +2 rule being adopted by the police in the first place. If you gat a speeding ticket for 31mph and the car speedo showed 30mph you would have a claim against the car maker and likely a very good defence in court.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 23 Dec 2019 11:13

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - focussed

Car speedos are nowhere near accurate enough to register a 1mph difference and their accuracy depends on tyre inflation and tread depth. We would need a whole new system for measuring a cars speed to enforce a no tolerance law.

As far as I know it was the inherent inaccuracy of cars speedos and the enforcement hardware that led to the 10% +2 rule being adopted by the police in the first place. If you gat a speeding ticket for 31mph and the car speedo showed 30mph you would have a claim against the car maker and likely a very good defence in court.

Yes of course, let's improve road safety by having no tolerance on speed enforcement, which will inevitably result in drivers paying more attention to their speedometer than to what is going on around and ahead of them.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 14:50

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - mcb100

BMW Cruise Control with Brake Assist was doing this 10 years ago, applying the brakes if the car was accelerating via gravity to a higher speed than that set by the cruise control.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 14:55

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Manatee

Zero tolerance or even 1mph tolerance is clearly impractical, you'd have to apply your own error margin below that to be 'safe'. 1mph accuracy at every point exceeds the precision of any common speed measuring device including GPS.

If say 30mph was a hard limit with material penalties for breach, then we'd really have to aim for maybe 25mph if controlling the car manually.

We might as well wait until only autonomous cars are compulsory. There will probably be a time when cars can only be driven manually at around walking pace or less, with normal highway use being left to the car.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 17:26

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - galileo

I regularly travel a stretch of downhill dual carriageway on which there is a 50 mph limit and two revenue (sorry, safety) cameras.

If I drop to 4th gear the car settles at 49/51 mph with foot off the accelerator.

i am usually passed by a few cars which brake before the cameras and follow a few who ride their brakes all the way down the hill, presumably in their top gear.

No doubt the "gears to go, brakes to slow" adherents will have a view on which is the correct method.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 17:23

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bromptonaut

A possible bone of contention here is the uncertainty of just what these guidelines currently are or going to be in the future - as witnessed by the recent removal of existing guidelines issued to Police Authorities (based loosely on the 10% plus 2 mph measure) and the short lived introduction more recently of so called ‘zero tolerance’ guidelines championed by the Road Safety Charity - Brake

Which police forces adopted the BRAKE guidelines?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 17:43

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Terry W

To be compliant with speed limits, cars will need data probably via a sat nav system.

I do wonder whether the calculated speed via sat nav is more or less accuarate than the speedo - I suspect generally more as it would be unaffected by different wheel and tyre combinations, or tyre wear.

Medium term I suspect this is all a way of changing emotions associated with cars from:

the"freedom" model where speed, gizmos, brand, size etc dominate to a simple
"white goods" model where it is judged solely on functionality

And this is all a precursor to driverless technologies where humans are taken out of the driving loop bar very low speed manouvring.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 19:43

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - CHarkin

I do wonder whether the calculated speed via sat nav is more or less accuarate than the speedo - I suspect generally more as it would be unaffected by different wheel and tyre combinations, or tyre wear.

I planned to change the gearing on my motorbike but was worried about the effect on the speedo. I did a good deal of comparison between the speedo and GPS both before and after conversion, even used the police calibration marks painted on the carriageway. The conclusion I came to was that GPS is a good deal more accurate, but its not as instant as the speedo taking a couple of seconds to register a change in speed. The bike was reading 6-7% high before and spot on after the change and this agreed with the calculated values using the number of teeth in the sprocket. GPS and speedo agreed at all speeds.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 17:45

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Sparrow

Can anyone explain how a vehicle's speed can be measured to a 1% accuracy. Even if it could, a driver's eyes should be on the road ahead, not glued to the speedo.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 22:11

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Engineer Andy

A possible bone of contention here is the uncertainty of just what these guidelines currently are or going to be in the future - as witnessed by the recent removal of existing guidelines issued to Police Authorities (based loosely on the 10% plus 2 mph measure) and the short lived introduction more recently of so called ‘zero tolerance’ guidelines championed by the Road Safety Charity - Brake

Which police forces adopted the BRAKE guidelines?

I'm awaiting a call from BRAKE for the return on the man (or woman [2019]) walking in front of cars waving a red flag.

Being serious though, I was under the impression that before ther recent 'zero tollerance' rule change, some Police forces had 10% +2mph, others only 5% +2mph. Talk about stupid. This should be a national policy and widely publised, including on the Police and Home office websites, not that you have to trawl through several webpages to possibly find the answer, assuming it's up to date.

I bet there are differences as well as to whether (for the exact same offence on essentially identical roads/conditions) people get only a warning for a first time or low level speeding offence or it automatically results in a fine/points.

I have the same problem (apologies for going off-topic here, but it is relevant) with a lot of 'local standards' in counties and council districts, e.g. what can be recycled and in what bins, etc. Changing all these rules per area just confuses everyone and contributes to problems with keeping to the rules/law and enforcement.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 22:57

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bromptonaut

Being serious though, I was under the impression that before ther recent 'zero tollerance' rule change, some Police forces had 10% +2mph, others only 5% +2mph. Talk about stupid. This should be a national policy and widely publised, including on the Police and Home office websites, not that you have to trawl through several webpages to possibly find the answer, assuming it's up to date.

I agree there should be a national standard. My question though was about which forces have adopted the BRAKE guidelines. Not impressions of what might have happened but a link to an account of which authorities have actually gone 'zero tolerance'.

The answer of course is the simple one; keep to the limit. Do other countries have these debates?

I have the same problem (apologies for going off-topic here, but it is relevant) with a lot of 'local standards' in counties and council districts, e.g. what can be recycled and in what bins, etc. Changing all these rules per area just confuses everyone and contributes to problems with keeping to the rules/law and enforcement.

I live in South Northamptonshire. I know what can be recycled and which bin it goes in.

Who is confused if it's different in Rochdale?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 21 Nov 2019 15:06

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - edlithgow

I live in South Northamptonshire. I know what can be recycled and which bin it goes in.

Who is confused if it's different in Rochdale?

OK, but if you live in a place called South- North Hamptonshire you may have developed a higher resistance to confusion than those in a simple, straightforward, compass-conflict-free place like Rochdale

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 22 Nov 2019 16:47

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Engineer Andy

I have the same problem (apologies for going off-topic here, but it is relevant) with a lot of 'local standards' in counties and council districts, e.g. what can be recycled and in what bins, etc. Changing all these rules per area just confuses everyone and contributes to problems with keeping to the rules/law and enforcement.
I live in South Northamptonshire. I know what can be recycled and which bin it goes in.

Who is confused if it's different in Rochdale?

My related point was that ther's no need for different standards in such a small nation. As regards bins, I have to (politely, but firmly) 'educate' many a new resident to my block of flats in North Herts, most of which come from either outside the county (and occasionally from abroad) or from a different District Council area, where:

The colour of each bin, both non-recycling and recycling differs, some having the same coloured bin for completely different things. The literature most councils give out to new residents is often incomplete.

Additionally, my own council stupidly changed the original bins over from having just grey bins for non-recycling, smaller black plastic crates for general recyclables, a blue one for paper products (not cardboard) and (houses only) brown bins for garden waste, to the following:

Flats - grey bins still for non-recyclables. Green communal wheelie bins for general recycling (but not plastic bags, hard plastics, films, card with attacthments/glitter, and many other things that can be recycled [which have to be at the local 'recycling centre', AKA 'the tip']), blue for paper (except brown paper [green bin], card, cardboard [green bin]) and brown communal wheelie bins for the special biodegradable bags for waste food and cut flowers (no garden waste).

Houses - grey bins FOR general recyclables except paper. Brown bins for combined garden waste (you have to pay £X extra to have this service) and food waste in the special bags, or use the bigger brown caddies (house have small ones) for food waste which are collected as part of normal council collections. The blue or black 'crates' can still be used as before and for additional items, only for houses.

People thus get confused about what to put in what bin/box. A new neighbour from London said (I don't believe them) that they don't have to rinse out food containers and can put in their old location's recycling bin fully bagged up (any bag) mixed items, including used tissues, plastic bags/films from food trays, food containers with food still in them, paper. I've also seen others (despite having the council leaflets) put food waste in standard plastic bags, some with no recycling symbol, some with a standard recycling one, which STILL isn't allowed as they (e.g. Tesco bags for life) are NOT biodegradable). Some even put pet waste (!) in these bins, bagged up (obviously NOT allowed whatever bag they go in!!).

This illustrates WHY we need standardised rules and laws across many things - there are so many idiots who are either clueless, ignorant or lazy, so we may was well make things easy as possible to understand and the same everywhere. For one, it would mean each Police Authority or Council could use the same literature/website information in the same format, saving them time and money.

Traffic laws (including parking restrictions) should be the same EVERYWHERE in the UK. Period.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 22 Nov 2019 17:56

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bromptonaut

My related point was that ther's no need for different standards in such a small nation. As regards bins, I have to (politely, but firmly) 'educate' many a new resident to my block of flats in North Herts, most of which come from either outside the county (and occasionally from abroad) or from a different District Council area, where:

We're a small nation but one with vast differences of housing type and density, topgraphy, patterns of work etc etc etc. We have three wheelie bins for (a) ALL recycling (b) garden and (c) landfill plus a food waste caddy. The bins are emptied alternate weeks a&b one week and c the other with food caddy every week. It works in a mainly rural area but would it work everywhere? I think not. Same in Edinburgh as Isle of Barra? Seriously?

I think France might be trying this; tri selectif and pensez au tri same to be common signs. Not sure it works that well, plenty of fly tipping and any local innovation is stifled.

I agree some national standards should be there if only to drive up recycling rates but to prescribe bin types and colours and exactly what can (and cannot) be recycled locally creates more problems rather than fewer. Wheelie bins are no good in steep streets in Wales or Pennines. Neither if there are terraces with doors straight to street - never mind back to backs. Plastic bags? Work for some but they're a 'mare if seagulls and feral foxes feature amongst local wildlife.

Are there still parts of the country where coal or wood ash is a significant component of domestic waste?

Let the Councils sort out what works for them practically and economically. If they mess it up then campaign!!

Idiots who are either clueless, ignorant or lazy, will do as they wish anyway.

As for parking how does one size fits all work.

I suspect in NE Herts you have similar problems to here. Parking for shops and offices. Commuters too tight to use station car park clogging nearby streets?

OTOH in Whitby or Scarborough the problem is seasonal; day trippers and holiday accommodation.

Different places and different issues. One size fits nobody.

You and I will have to agree to differ.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Mon 23 Dec 2019 11:24

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - focussed

"I think France might be trying this; tri selectif and pensez au tri same to be common signs. Not sure it works that well, plenty of fly tipping and any local innovation is stifled."

I have lived in France for ten years and have seen virtually no fly tipping as compared to the UK problem. The French can be untidy around the large communal bins as used in most communes, if the bin is full they will just dump their rubbish next to the bin, but not fly tipping in ditches etc.

If the local governments change to some other half-baked rubbish collection scheme that means it will cost more, or limit the amount they can dump, the French will just dump their rubbish on their local mayor's doorstep!

I very rarely find even a fag packet when mowing the grass verge alongside the road outside our house.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sun 22 Dec 2019 23:02

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Firmbutfair

A possible bone of contention here is the uncertainty of just what these guidelines currently are or going to be in the future - as witnessed by the recent removal of existing guidelines issued to Police Authorities (based loosely on the 10% plus 2 mph measure) and the short lived introduction more recently of so called ‘zero tolerance’ guidelines championed by the Road Safety Charity - Brake

Which police forces adopted the BRAKE guidelines?

The Freedom of Information Requests made during 2019 by both National Newspapers and the Major Motoring/Breakdown Organisations were met with a very mixed response with Police Authorities in several Counties declining to reveal ANY statistics or any details of which specific limits and tolerances they were currently using. The traditional 10% plus 2 mph 'Guidelines' adopted by many Police Authorities in the days before the widespread installation of speed cameras, mobile van based camera systems and/or hand held speed guns were apparently only ever 'guidelines' ! Individual County Police Authorities were still and are still free to adopt their own limits and tolerances with no obligation to publicise what those limits are. From my own personal experience, several of my own friends and family members have been sent speeding fines for being 'caught speeding' in 30 mph zones at less that the 10% plus 2 mph guideline/limit of 35 mph, specifically: 1) 33 mph - a 20 year old male - fined in Essex in Southend on Sea some 17 years ago: 2) 34 mph - my Brother in Law in Colchester, in Essex just 8 years ago; 3) 34 mph - my Daughter in Law in Hadleigh in Essex just 5 years ago. So clearly Essex Police Authority does not and has not followed the 10% plus 2 mph guideline for some considerable time!

In every case the drivers challenged the imposition of the fines and were told that the local Police Authority did not subscribe to the 10% + 2 mph rule for reasons of public safety as there had been a steady rise in 'speeding' and in accidents which might be attributed to speeding and so they were determined to 'crack down' on speeding in Essex by setting firm examples whenever legally possible!

Edited by Firmbutfair on 22/12/2019 at 23:22

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 18:16

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Heidfirst

Now on at least my 5th car with cruise control & I haven't had this issue with any of them if "manually and correctly set and engaged." Fairly certain though that they do apply the brakes gently if required (i.e. engine braking is not sufficient).

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 20:08

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - daveyK_UK

Having worked in this area, I found brake as a pressure group to be unnecessarily aggressive and spiteful.

From various engagements with brake advocates I came to the conclusion a large portion of their team / supporters are simply anti car, including anti autonomous car. Lots of far left Jeremy Corbyn types who don't understand human behaviour and economics.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 21:04

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - focussed

Having worked in this area, I found brake as a pressure group to be unnecessarily aggressive and spiteful.

From various engagements with brake advocates I came to the conclusion a large portion of their team / supporters are simply anti car, including anti autonomous car. Lots of far left Jeremy Corbyn types who don't understand human behaviour and economics.

I recall that the local council road safety officer, who was also a Brake activist was invited to speak at our monthly advanced group meeting - 80 to 100 members present.

Amongst other things, he criticised the naming of the IAM saying that the word "advanced" was elitist and demeaned ordinary road users and cited the IAM training as being dangerous.

Absolute silence afterwards, he didn't get invited to the bar or asked to speak again at subsequent meetings.

But twenty years later, he is still the local council road safety officer, the city is infested with pointless cycle lanes, bus lanes, chicanes, one way systems, traffic lights on roundabouts etc and a lot of local people now avoid going into the city at all, many shops and businesses are closing.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 21:13

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Brit_in_Germany

I thought automatic speed control was being planned by the EU already.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/legal-motoring-advice/20.../

Edited by Brit_in_Germany on 16/11/2019 at 21:16

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 21:28

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - gordonbennet

Trust me on this, whilst you might think speed limiters would be a good thing, in practice when everyone is limited to the same maximum speed, give or take 2 to 3mph, driving becomes a horrible experience, pushing shoving baulking bunching tailgating aggressive or annoying behaviour, all are exacerbated.

It will not be the motoring utopia you think it is, we've had these things in lorry world for over 20 years now, look forward to your own very elephant races, let alone how do you overtake that annoying mimser who dawdles on single carriage roads until an overtake or short stretch of dual carriage presents itself when our wannabe traffic cop knows the people he's deliberately annoying are about to go past him so boots it straight up to limiter speed...these and much worse people are out there, limiters will be the gift of a lifetime to them.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 21:59

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - focussed

Don't worry GB - a month after the cars that have speed limiters are on the market, you will be able to buy a little black box from Hong Kong for 50 quid that disables the speed limiter!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 22:12

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - gordonbennet

Don't worry GB - a month after the cars that have speed limiters are on the market, you will be able to buy a little black box from Hong Kong for 50 quid that disables the speed limiter!

No doubt, however in lorry world being found with such devices (too easy, you stick out like a sore thumb doing even 10mph more than everyone else, and the digi tacho records everything) will result in massive fines, likely vehicle immobilising and really serious penalties for the vehicle operator up to and including revocation of operators licence, followed for the driver by an unpleasant meeting with the Traffic Commissioner and the loss of vocational licence for an extended period.

I suspect some draconian measures will be in place under construction and use to prevent cheat devices for cars too, by then we'll all probably be tracked 24/7 in the new big brother superstate so any and all indiscretions by us proles will be recorded.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 22 Nov 2019 17:04

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Engineer Andy

Having worked in this area, I found brake as a pressure group to be unnecessarily aggressive and spiteful.

From various engagements with brake advocates I came to the conclusion a large portion of their team / supporters are simply anti car, including anti autonomous car. Lots of far left Jeremy Corbyn types who don't understand human behaviour and economics.

I recall that the local council road safety officer, who was also a Brake activist was invited to speak at our monthly advanced group meeting - 80 to 100 members present.

Amongst other things, he criticised the naming of the IAM saying that the word "advanced" was elitist and demeaned ordinary road users and cited the IAM training as being dangerous.

Absolute silence afterwards, he didn't get invited to the bar or asked to speak again at subsequent meetings.

But twenty years later, he is still the local council road safety officer, the city is infested with pointless cycle lanes, bus lanes, chicanes, one way systems, traffic lights on roundabouts etc and a lot of local people now avoid going into the city at all, many shops and businesses are closing.

I wonder how much money has been spent by these oiks on useless road furniture/signage that often confuses road users and can obscure other important signage etc because there are so many of them. I bet many of them actually make safety worse as a result.

Things like 10-20m of cycle lane going nowhere really get my goat, as do the idiotcy of traffic lights on roundabouts - the one I hate the most is in Stevenage near the Hospital on one of the ring roads - it generates huge queues and diverts traffic down residential streets (with speed cushions which damage tyres and suspension) on the ring road just because two of the four roads don't have traffic lights.

I was once stuck there for 45 mins (longer than the journey from work to home or vice-versa) one evening just because the road before the one I was one was being used by just enough cars (not that busy) to not allow anyone on from my road. So you take the chance (normally the wait time is 5 mins) going that way (Google Maps etc is just not up to date enough as these jams can build up in just a few minutes - I was using my work phone as a satnav when the incidents occured) or risk damaging you tyres and suspension turning off earlier and going the other way via side streets.

Talk about bad concept and design - encouraging people to come off relief roads onto residential side streets and to make the situation worse for those who stayed on (including those without any prior warning via satnavs or local knowledge). Class.

The same goes for the idiots who never widened the A1 between Welwyn and Stevenage and are now considering (yep) converting the two lane A1(M) to a 'smart' motorway with hard shoulder running. Get ready for many extra road deaths in the area!

((facepalm)). No - Captain Picard epic double Facepalm.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 22:03

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Engineer Andy

In my experience, there are a LOT of drivers who (presumably without cruise control) cannot control the speeds of their car, particularly on motorways and dual carriageways - they speed up going downhill and slow down (even on gentle inclines) going up, because they presumably don't adjust their foot position on the throttle pedal.

Whether that's because they don't know any better, don't care or are distracted by the radio, phone or their passenger(s), I don't know, although I often see this happen with just the driver present. I call them 'foot-planters'.

Others pull up behind and tailgate you for miles, but can easily overtake, then suddenly they 'get fed up', blast past and either keep going at an illegal rate of knots or slow back down just a few car lengths in front, going back to the same speed I was at.

I think the same lot also drive at 50 on a single lane (national speed limit [60]) road in good weather/little traffic (i.e. they can do 60) and then barely slow down when they reach a 30 zone going through a far more busy town or village (with pedestrians crossing, etc). How these people passed their driving tests, I do not know...

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sat 16 Nov 2019 22:46

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - FP

"In my experience, there are a LOT of drivers who (presumably without cruise control) cannot control the speeds of their car, particularly on motorways and dual carriageways - they speed up going downhill and slow down (even on gentle inclines) going up, because they presumably don't adjust their foot position on the throttle pedal."

Why is it necessary to maintain the same speed uphill as downhill? It's less economical to drive that way. A lot of traffic slows on hills - HGVs especially.

In fact, why is it necessary to maintain the same speed all the time?

I agree that following a driver on a single carriageway who frequently speeds up and slows down would be irritating to say the least, but on a dual carriageway or motorway?

As regards the point about some drivers keeping to the same speed irrespective of circumstances - I whole-heartedly agree.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sun 17 Nov 2019 10:06

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - thunderbird

When we first had a car with cruise control it would speed up going down long gradients due to gravity, annoying but once you were aware not an issue, just brake to keep speed to the limit. This happened on a few cars.

Then we got a car that had brake function in the CC in which you could feel the brakes being applied to keep the car to the set speed been like that in the last 3 cars and only one has had the all singing, all dancing adaptive cruise.

Things have progressed. The first car we had with a speed limited (2007 Micra) simply bonged to tell you it had reached the set speed. Now speed limiters are pretty useful on busy motorways especially in roadworks since they do actually stop you exceeding the set speed.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Sun 17 Nov 2019 11:21

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - galileo

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1957/feb/26/motor-vehicles-variation-of-speed-limit

This link leads to the debate in 1956 about raising the speed limit for lorries from 20 mph to 30 mph. Interestingly, it was recognised that most lorries travelled at 30 mph anyway.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Wed 29 Jan 2020 14:10

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Firmbutfair

"In my experience, there are a LOT of drivers who (presumably without cruise control) cannot control the speeds of their car, particularly on motorways and dual carriageways - they speed up going downhill and slow down (even on gentle inclines) going up, because they presumably don't adjust their foot position on the throttle pedal."

Why is it necessary to maintain the same speed uphill as downhill? It's less economical to drive that way. A lot of traffic slows on hills - HGVs especially.

In fact, why is it necessary to maintain the same speed all the time?

I agree that following a driver on a single carriageway who frequently speeds up and slows down would be irritating to say the least, but on a dual carriageway or motorway?

As regards the point about some drivers keeping to the same speed irrespective of circumstances - I whole-heartedly agree. - Posted by FP on 16 November 2019

One of the downsides of engaging 'cruise control' in your car is that it is uses more fuel than allowing the driver to have full control over the throttle opening. Assuming that you are travelling at a reasonable and legal speed on a dual carriageway or motorway and that you are not 'in a hurry', then a signififcant fuel saving can be made by allowing the car to gently gather speed (and momentum) on each downgrade, up to say 65 or 70 mph, and then try not to further depress your accelerator on the upgrade, such that the car progressively but slowly reduces speed on the following upgrade, resulting in the speed falling to maybe 55 or 50 mph at the end of the uphill gradient. The efficacy and benefit of this technique can be seen most clearly if you reset your Trip Computer to read cumulative average mpg immediately before reaching your intended cruising speed, at which point the trip computer will be at its most responsive to changes in throttle opening and it will be seen that the avaerage mpg displayed will progressively increase. Switching between the cumulative average mpg and the instantaneous mpg settings of the Trip Computer will indicate how successful your 'fuel saving' technique is and whether you need to be more gentle or less so with your throttle opening adjustments. Admittedly, adoption of this driving style on main roads will irritate lorry drivers who like to cruise at a constant 56 to 62 mph uphill and down dale, but on dual carriageways or motorways they will usually have plenty of opportunity to overtake you. By using this technique on longer journeys in a number of conventional 5 door hatchbacks, I have been able see avaerage mpg figures approaching or even occasionally exceeding the old NEDC posted headline figure e.g. 65.7 mpg combined from door to door in light traffic conditions in the daylight when making any of my regular 47 mile journeys in Essex and Cambs - both there and back - two up plus luggage - in my current car.

Clearly, this technique works best in flat country regions such as Essex, Cambridge, Lincolnshire etc and relies upon the fact that in general motorways and dual carriageways are never laid flat fo any significant distance but are, by EU law, laid with gradients no steeper than 1 in 20 (5%) and no flatter than 1 in 120 (0.8%) in order to aid the run off of rainwater and thus prevent the accumulation of surface rainwater that could lead to aquaplaning at high speeds.

Edited by Firmbutfair on 29/01/2020 at 14:19

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 21 Nov 2019 19:38

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - barney100

The bottom line is the driver has the responsibility to keep in the speed limits. We have a speedo and brakes so no excuses.....how come I've been done twice I ask myself. You set off with the best of intentions but a moments lack of concentration and bingo a speed awareness course. Both of my discretions were just over the limit on strange roads.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 21 Nov 2019 20:07

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - sammy1

When I jump in my car I want to drive it. I do not want cruise control, lane assist, automatic braking and all the other gizmos doing it for me.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 21 Nov 2019 22:44

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - sandy56

If car drivers cannot be bothered to use some concentration in controlling a 1 tonne / 2.5 tonne motor vehicle on public roads then maybe they should not be driving at all. Control the car and stop playing with your phone.

Some of us know people who have speeding convictions and most of us know a lot of people who dont have any motoring penalties. It isnt that difficult to drive a car, keeping it under your control, instead we have idiots on the phone, reading, doing their make up or watching tv.

We are headed for car automation and will no longer be the actual driver, just the paying passenger. If automation can control aircraft crossing continents from take off to landing, have automated in flight refueling, automated takeoff and landing on an aircraft carrier, it is only a matter of time before we will be using an automated "car" to take us to work/town/ shopping whatever.

Is it a good thing? probably, as a lot of people have no regard to proper car control, or other drivers. Maybe we will all be a lot safer with the microprocessor in control instead of some idiot who thinks it is OK to drive at 70mph in a residential area.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 21 Nov 2019 22:48

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - sandy56

Maybe some people just need to do a course on how to drive properly.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Thu 30 Jan 2020 14:35

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - HGV ~ P Valentine

From Paul Valentine esq

For once a short note, I have actually been done by a fixed camera doing 31 in a 30 zone, and got pulled by the law doing 75 on the motorway, but he gave me choice of doing me for speeding or not wearing a seat belt.

The myth of being able to go above the speed limit is rubbish, it is absolute and you should look up the word limit in the dictionary.

The reality

is that you are unlikely to get stopped going slightly above the speed limit if you do not do anything to attract the attention of speed-cop, so it is a lottery.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 08:05

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - JoeB

My understanding is that a lot of the aggressive speed enforcement etc was in order to comply with EU regulations. The EU after all were proposing mass vehicle tracking and speed control. I have not heard anything from the government about how speed enforcement will change after Brexit but presumably we will be able to draw up our own regulations and possibly be a bit more flexible?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 08:37

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bromptonaut

My understanding is that a lot of the aggressive speed enforcement etc was in order to comply with EU regulations. The EU after all were proposing mass vehicle tracking and speed control. I have not heard anything from the government about how speed enforcement will change after Brexit but presumably we will be able to draw up our own regulations and possibly be a bit more flexible?

Can you explain how EU regulations affect current speed enforcement in UK?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 09:07

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Brit_in_Germany

Indirectly there would be an influence on the emissions but I doubt that this was the reasoning behind the post.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 13:29

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Engineer Andy

My understanding is that a lot of the aggressive speed enforcement etc was in order to comply with EU regulations. The EU after all were proposing mass vehicle tracking and speed control. I have not heard anything from the government about how speed enforcement will change after Brexit but presumably we will be able to draw up our own regulations and possibly be a bit more flexible?

Can you explain how EU regulations affect current speed enforcement in UK?

I suspect they got the wrong end of the stick. I believe the EU directive or proposals were related to compulsary speed limiters in future cars. Not sure about black boxes (similar to those for insurance purposes) and alcohol breath testers though in terms of legislation/proposals.

The unpleasnt thing about 'speed enforcement' on the Continent (mainly in France, as HJ has said on a good number of occasions in his weekly column) is local Plod deliberately putting up artificially low local speed limits and setting up speed traps as cash cows. This will be less of an issue for UK drivers from tomorrow as the authorities won't have the right to demand UK drivers' details to go after them when they return home.

I don't condone this as a 'licence to speed', but perhaps it may get authorities thinking that deliberately setting up sting operations to milk motorists is not a good idea. The same could be said on this side of the Channel.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 17:32

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bromptonaut

I suspect they got the wrong end of the stick. I believe the EU directive or proposals were related to compulsary speed limiters in future cars. Not sure about black boxes (similar to those for insurance purposes) and alcohol breath testers though in terms of legislation/proposals.

That was my guess. I suspect our government will be no less enthusiastic then EU in legislating for technology to advance 'safety'.

The unpleasnt thing about 'speed enforcement' on the Continent (mainly in France, as HJ has said on a good number of occasions in his weekly column) is local Plod deliberately putting up artificially low local speed limits and setting up speed traps as cash cows. This will be less of an issue for UK drivers from tomorrow as the authorities won't have the right to demand UK drivers' details to go after them when they return home.

The same is said about our councils/Police and allegation cameras are a 'tax'. I'm deeply sceptical of such suggestions. For years the KSI stats for France, which has similar population to UK, have been something like double ours. Governments, probably from Hollande and certainly Sarkozy have tried to 'do something' about it.

I'm not going to test the proposition about right to demand driver details ending tomorrow. It will almost certainly endure during transition and if we want names of foreign drivers who infringe here there will have to be a quid pro quo.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 18:17

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Engineer Andy

I think there's a big difference between drivers who are escaping proper legal redress for careless or danegerous driving and those persecuted for reasons of revenue-raising by local authorities (on each side of the channel) by lowering speed limits where it isn't warranted for safety reasons or to increase overall traffic flows in the rush hour.

Whilst I accept we don't live in a perfect world where people get what they deserve, we shouldn't just prop up unethical or corrupt systems in supposedly enlightened nations to be able to get justice on one side or the other. Such systems need to be challenged so that bad practices, unethical behaviour and corruption are exposed and things changed to make this right.

That's why I voted for us to be masters of our own Kingdom again, so we can do something about it, and not just tut-tut at decisions made where we have 0% control over. We wouldn't have any control if all decisions were made by unelected bureaucrats with no accountability.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 20:11

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - FP

"That's why I voted for us to be masters of our own Kingdom again, so we can do something about it, and not just tut-tut at decisions made where we have 0% control over. We wouldn't have any control if all decisions were made by unelected bureaucrats with no accountability."

I voted Leave also, but I'm not sufficiently naive as to believe the EU has a monopoly on dubious legal or ethical practices.

Anyone who believes leaving the EU means an end to all such issues is deluded, though it may matter to some that now such things will not be decided by "unelected bureaucrats" - if indeed, they ever were.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 19:59

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - wilmarub

Cruise control isn't a supplement to paying attention. Mostly, it stops my right ankle from aching.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 20:40

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - misar

The EU does not make laws or regulations. It creates Directives which are enforced separately by each member state creating its own legislation.

My experience over many years is that frequently when the UK press decried "stupid EU rules" it has turned out to be "stupid UK legislation" creating a problem which most of the rest of the EU avoided with more sensible legislation.

Anyway the leavers will now have an opportunity to find out whether a UK government left to its own devices creates nothing but perfect legislation beloved by all its citizens.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Fri 31 Jan 2020 21:29

ANY - Helping Conscientious Drivers Avoid Speeding Fines - Bromptonaut

My experience over many years is that frequently when the UK press decried "stupid EU rules" it has turned out to be "stupid UK legislation" creating a problem which most of the rest of the EU avoided with more sensible legislation.

Anyway the leavers will now have an opportunity to find out whether a UK government left to its own devices creates nothing but perfect legislation beloved by all its citizens.

That nails it exactly.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link

Ask Honest John

Sell Your Car

Real MPG

Fuel Calculator