I do believe V-Power has a different formulation where Shell make an alternative from natural gas that is equally high in hydrogen and low in carbon meeting the same requirements. Shell have vast resources of natural gas and turn it into a wide range of things including a base oil for their synthetic engine oils.
You can't alter the C-H ratio much in natural gas in a cat-cracker, you have to add oxygen somehow. Most ethanol, especially in Brazil where it is made from sugar-cane, comes from a sugary source, so that oxygen is in the molecule from the word go. Ethanol burns with a clear blue flame (think Christmas puddings) showing complete oxidation, while paraffins (think candles) burn with a sooty yellow flame, showing incomplete combustion. That is the problem engine designers have to solve to limit emissions.
Edited by Andrew-T on 15/10/2019 at 18:43
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John Cadogan has an excellent You Tube article explaining (based on genuine scientific facts) 10 reasons why Hydrogen gas is not a feasible fuel for I C engines.
Use in a fuel cell might be safer and more efficient, the basic problem is that currently 98% of Hydrogen is made from methane, with CO2 as a necessary by-product, so not a 'green' or non-polluting fuel.
Scientifically ignorant politicians and 'green' campaigners are blissfully unaware of these and many other issues, which is a failure of current education policies and the priority given to many 'politically correct' subjects instead of practically useful ones.
Edited by galileo on 15/10/2019 at 19:18
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which is a failure of current education policies and the priority given to many 'politically correct' subjects instead of practically useful ones.
Which PC subjects are these? Schools concentrate on maths/English/science...never heard them called PC before and they seem pretty useful to me.
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You have obviously never realised that the teaching profession has been indoctrinated pretty much 100% into believing and teaching left-wing ideology.
Unless of course you are a teacher!
This from, of all places, the Guardian written by a teacher.
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2017/jun/24/secret-teacher-school-echo-chamber-leftwing-views-labour
"This is about more than education. With our politics increasingly polarised, it saddens me to see my students being initiated – deliberately or not – into an essentially Manichaean view of politics, with a checklist of “goodies” (leftists, trade unions, Corbyn) and “baddies” (Tories, Brexiteers, anyone who uses the phrase British values without irony)."
Edited by focussed on 15/10/2019 at 23:45
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You have obviously never realised that the teaching profession has been indoctrinated pretty much 100% into believing and teaching left-wing ideology.
Unless of course you are a teacher!
This from, of all places, the Guardian written by a teacher.
https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2017/jun/24/secret-teacher-school-echo-chamber-leftwing-views-labour
"This is about more than education. With our politics increasingly polarised, it saddens me to see my students being initiated – deliberately or not – into an essentially Manichaean view of politics, with a checklist of “goodies” (leftists, trade unions, Corbyn) and “baddies” (Tories, Brexiteers, anyone who uses the phrase British values without irony)."
You say that like its a bad thing?
(Your post is of course completely off topic, but, since I'm a teacher, I'll bite anyway
While the above are no doubt laudable objectives, and since I'm from Scotland I do have the standard-issue left-wing bias, they'd not be a good fit for my students, who are mostly from Taiwan, Afrkica, and the Middle East
I've been teaching an Environmental Science course for the last 3 years. The book the University suggested as a pattern is more environmentalist than environmental and I've preferred to concentrate on the science, but its surprisingly hard to avoid the politics.
For example, by the most widely accepted criteria, the ONLY country practicing sustainable development is....Cuba.
De-politicise that.
It crops up in some surprising (to me, anyway) places. Here's a US High School exam question.
"•Which of the following would not be considered a common resource?
•the atmosphere
•fish in the ocean
•fossil fuels
•soil
•water in streams and rivers
The correct answer is "None of the above" They are all common resources.
So they are teaching Americans, in America, (perhaps not in Iraq) that fossil fuels are a common resource, and i think its quite possible they are completely unaware of the reality-defying commie optimism they are displaying.
My best guess is that a left wing perspective just emerges naturally from a consideration of these sorts of issues, even if its not recognised as such, and can't be implemented.
Edited by edlithgow on 18/10/2019 at 17:01
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The hydrogen needed to move a fuel cell vehicle a kilometer costs approximately 8 times as much as the electricity needed to move a battery electric vehicle the same distance.
Hydrogen at the moment and for the foreseeable future is a niche fuel.
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The hydrogen needed to move a fuel cell vehicle a kilometer costs approximately 8 times as much as the electricity needed to move a battery electric vehicle the same distance.
Hydrogen at the moment and for the foreseeable future is a niche fuel.
And how do those values compare with petrol and diesel-excluding tax and duty of course!
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While future price is uncertain, NREL estimates that hydrogen fuel prices may fall to the $10 to $8 per kg range in the 2020 to 2025 period. A kilogram of hydrogen has about the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline. FCEVs are about twice as efficient as gasoline-powered vehicles: an FCEV travels about twice as far as a conventional vehicle given the same amount of fuel energy. At $3.50 per gallon gasoline, a conventional vehicle costs about $0.13 per mile to operate, while an FCEV using $8 per kg hydrogen fuel would cost about $0.12 per mile.
https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill
Note - California is able to use almost boundless solar energy to produce it's hydrogen.
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While future price is uncertain, NREL estimates that hydrogen fuel prices may fall to the $10 to $8 per kg range in the 2020 to 2025 period. A kilogram of hydrogen has about the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline. FCEVs are about twice as efficient as gasoline-powered vehicles: an FCEV travels about twice as far as a conventional vehicle given the same amount of fuel energy. At $3.50 per gallon gasoline, a conventional vehicle costs about $0.13 per mile to operate, while an FCEV using $8 per kg hydrogen fuel would cost about $0.12 per mile.
https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill
Note - California is able to use almost boundless solar energy to produce it's hydrogen.
Would be noce to be able to go down the Hydrogen fuelled route rather than pure electric/battery vehicles as a lot of the infrastructure is in place which could be converted over to Hydrogen
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Would be noce to be able to go down the Hydrogen fuelled route rather than pure electric/battery vehicles as a lot of the infrastructure is in place which could be converted over to Hydrogen
You've got to get it there. Hydrogen is difficult to transport.
It's a conundrum. Hydrogen is apparently the most abundant element in the universe, but we have not found an efficient way to utilise it.
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It's a conundrum. Hydrogen is apparently the most abundant element in the universe, but we have not found an efficient way to utilise it.
Ultimately all the energy we have ever used has come from hydrogen one way or another, because it has come from the sun, which is utilizing hydrogen for us;)
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Hydrogen is not the only suitable fuel for a fuel cell. Ethanol is also a possibility but I guess there the supply of the raw ingredient would be competing with food supplies and have deforestation implications.
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<< You've got to get it there. Hydrogen is difficult to transport. >>
Not only that, it has the potential for disastrous explosions, even compared with petrol, as it has to be stored or carried under high pressure - which in itself means a fairly heavy tank for a car, before you put any (fairly light) hydrogen inside. Don't even imagine what a motorway crash might lead to, or failures while refuelling.
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<< You've got to get it there. Hydrogen is difficult to transport. >>
Not only that, it has the potential for disastrous explosions, even compared with petrol, as it has to be stored or carried under high pressure - which in itself means a fairly heavy tank for a car, before you put any (fairly light) hydrogen inside. Don't even imagine what a motorway crash might lead to, or failures while refuelling.
People do seem to bang on (NPI) about how dangerous hydrogen is, yet they don't seem to worry much about petrol, which is MUCH more dangerous, but which they are used to.
A hydrogen leak will disperse upwards, especially if its burning. Petrol will soak, pool, lurk, and flow downhill.
Quite a lot of people survived the Hindenberg disaster who would not have walked away if it'd been full of petrol (though it would admittedly then have been a pretty useless airship.)
Napalm is made from petrol, and is demonstrably dangerous,but it would be quite .difficult to drop hydrogen on people.
(Hydrogen bombs are a special case).
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A hydrogen leak will disperse upwards, especially if its burning. Petrol will soak, pool, lurk, and flow downhill.
yet they don't seem to worry much about petrol
Yes it surprises me sometimes what people get up to when filling up
Not the liquid petrol you have to worry about, its the vapour as you probably know, its not what you can see thats dangerous but what you cant (most of the time as you can see vapour overflowing the filler tube sometimes)
I watched someone vaping yesterday in a garage filling up, but no one said anything to the woman???? you would think people would know better!
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you can see vapour overflowing the filler tube sometimes)
I thought all modern pumps had to have a vapour recovery system and assumed that's the reason for the second hole in the nozzle.
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A hydrogen leak will disperse upwards, especially if its burning. Petrol will soak, pool, lurk, and flow downhill.
Not the liquid petrol you have to worry about, its the vapour as you probably know, its not what you can see thats dangerous but what you can't
It's not the fires I am worried about, it's the potential for an explosion. As you say, it's the vapour you need to worry about. Petrol explosions are usually the result of an accidental spark caused by static discharge. Hydrogen will always be a gas waiting for a spark - which is not uncommon at filling stations. The idea of an untrained public filling their vehicles with hydrogen is fairly worrying.
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I watched someone vaping yesterday in a garage filling up, but no one said anything to the woman???? you would think people would know better!
I wonder if they incorporate a metal mesh between the heating coil and the air to prevent flame transfer, like a Davy lamp. It would be a sensible feature.
In practice I assume it's not that easy to start a petrol fire with a lit cigarette, or there would be more explosions, with so many people being as stupid as they are. How different a vape thing is, I have no idea. I'm not going to do the experiment.
Anybody who has ever tried lighting a barbecue or a bonfire with petrol and a match doesn't usually want to repeat the experience, even when they survive. I'm pretty scared of petrol, I don't even like sloshing it into the lawn mower.
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<< In practice I assume it's not that easy to start a petrol fire with a lit cigarette, or there would be more explosions >>
You are right. I well remember an old acquaintance filling his car with a lit fag behind his back. I'm sure he did that regularly and AFAIK never had any fires. Burning matches are another matter, but vapour explosions are the real killer if the concentration of petrol vapour reaches the explosive limit and a spark is generated somehow.
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<< In practice I assume it's not that easy to start a petrol fire with a lit cigarette, or there would be more explosions >>
You are right. I well remember an old acquaintance filling his car with a lit fag behind his back. I'm sure he did that regularly and AFAIK never had any fires. Burning matches are another matter, but vapour explosions are the real killer if the concentration of petrol vapour reaches the explosive limit and a spark is generated somehow.
Used to be a common thing someone smoking while filling up, and think its direction of wind if blowing the vapour away from you is probably the reason it doesn't go up.
when I was an apprentice the mechanics used to throw lit cigarettes into an open bowl of petrol to prove the fag wouldn't cause an explosion, never did either, the petrol would put the fag out, BUT, they wouldn't throw a lit match toward it knowing it would blow
we used pits in those days to remove gearboxes and axles or servicing but was never allowed to take off fuel tanks in it, aside from the vapour filling the pit any spark and thats it
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we used pits in those days to remove gearboxes and axles or servicing but was never allowed to take off fuel tanks in it, aside from the vapour filling the pit any spark and thats it
One of my percieved near death experiences, of which petrol seems to be the biggest contributor (2 petrol, 1 shark, 1 Berber herd dog, 1 motorcycle, 1 mis-diagnosis, though probably some others I've forgotten or didn't notice at the time) involved gas welding a Marina chassis box-section in a pit without realising that the plastic fuel line ran through it.
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"John Cadogan has an excellent You Tube article explaining (based on genuine scientific facts) 10 reasons why Hydrogen gas is not a feasible fuel for I C engines."
Once I remembered who this was, I confidently expected to dislike it a lot, but in fact it was quite interesting.
However, its isn't about IC engines per se, though that's the way its billed. It is in fact exclusively about reciprocating IC engines.
IIRC Skunkworks evaluated a hydrogen fuelled replacement for the U2 (looked very like the Blackbird) and concluded that, while it had real performance advantages for jet turbine engines, these didn't justify the logistic complexity involved in the USAF setting up a global hydrogen refuelling infrastucture.
Aircraft are perhaps a more likely use of hydrogen IC. There are of course a lot of electric drones about, and I suppose if you built a fuel-celled airliner you might end up with something like a rather quiet Super Constellation, but there might be range and payload reasons why no one has done it yet..
However, IC hydrogen appears to have almost nothing to do with the topic (contaminated fuel),
AFAICT the comments on politicians, and (allegedly) politicised education have absolutely nothing to do with the topic (contaminated fuel)
Edited by edlithgow on 17/10/2019 at 11:21
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"John Cadogan has an excellent You Tube article explaining (based on genuine scientific facts) 10 reasons why Hydrogen gas is not a feasible fuel for I C engines."
Once I remembered who this was, I confidently expected to dislike it a lot, but in fact it was quite interesting.
However, its isn't about IC engines per se, though that's the way its billed. It is in fact exclusively about reciprocating IC engines.
IIRC Skunkworks evaluated a hydrogen fuelled replacement for the U2 (looked very like the Blackbird) and concluded that, while it had real performance advantages for jet turbine engines, these didn't justify the logistic complexity involved in the USAF setting up a global hydrogen refuelling infrastucture.
Aircraft are perhaps a more likely use of hydrogen IC. There are of course a lot of electric drones about, and I suppose if you built a fuel-celled airliner you might end up with something like a rather quiet Super Constellation, but there might be range and payload reasons why no one has done it yet..
However, IC hydrogen appears to have almost nothing to do with the topic (contaminated fuel),
AFAICT the comments on politicians, and (allegedly) politicised education have absolutely nothing to do with the topic (contaminated fuel)
If anyones interested, that has not heard about it, Elon Musk company has come up with a new battery that could possibly last a million miles not sure if that is old news but how it works and its design are on youtube
could be the breakthrough weve all been waiting for ?
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