|
Not invented here .. is their motto.
|
|
|
Honda are falling behind in terms of sales, design and technology. They’re refusal to team up with other manufacturers to develop future models is crippling them. They’re also not proactive about selling their engines to smaller firms either unlike Toyota who power every recent Lotus. A deal with independent Mazda or/and Suzuki would be a wise move to cut EV and hybrid development costs but they’re staunchly independent.
Mazda are already partnering with Toyota on the hybrids (the latest Mazda3 and forthcoming CX-30 has a mild hybrid engine to run the car's electrical systems [for the most part), so that's out. I agree that Honda have gone from being very innovative in the 1990s and early 2000s to timid and well beind the R&D curve on engine design, especially petrol engines.
Their withdrawal from Formula 1 and disasterous re-entry (though things are now, finally, improving, but for how long?) show they are way too risk-averse and went from rivalling Toyota in terms of their hybrids to the back of the pack in 15 years. Even their much-vaunted reliability has been shaken of late with problems with both the petrol turbo and diesel engines, plus their line-up, at least in the UK/EU, is so reduced its like they've given up. No wonder they're closing the Swindon plant.
Given the high quality of that plant and its workforce, other manufacturers should (once any [hopefully short term] issues are resolved around Brexit) be looking to purchase the plant and re-employ the workforce lock, stock and barrel. If Mazda can imrpove their engines (especially if the SA-X engine works well), I think they should seriously consider buying it to be their European manufacturing base, assuming sales start rising again now that their range is improving again. Whether they can afford it is another matter.
Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by managing decline.
|
Honda are falling behind in terms of sales, design and technology. They’re refusal to team up with other manufacturers to develop future models is crippling them. They’re also not proactive about selling their engines to smaller firms either unlike Toyota who power every recent Lotus. A deal with independent Mazda or/and Suzuki would be a wise move to cut EV and hybrid development costs but they’re staunchly independent.
Mazda are already partnering with Toyota on the hybrids (the latest Mazda3 and forthcoming CX-30 has a mild hybrid engine to run the car's electrical systems [for the most part), so that's out. I agree that Honda have gone from being very innovative in the 1990s and early 2000s to timid and well beind the R&D curve on engine design, especially petrol engines.
Their withdrawal from Formula 1 and disasterous re-entry (though things are now, finally, improving, but for how long?) show they are way too risk-averse and went from rivalling Toyota in terms of their hybrids to the back of the pack in 15 years. Even their much-vaunted reliability has been shaken of late with problems with both the petrol turbo and diesel engines, plus their line-up, at least in the UK/EU, is so reduced its like they've given up. No wonder they're closing the Swindon plant.
Given the high quality of that plant and its workforce, other manufacturers should (once any [hopefully short term] issues are resolved around Brexit) be looking to purchase the plant and re-employ the workforce lock, stock and barrel. If Mazda can imrpove their engines (especially if the SA-X engine works well), I think they should seriously consider buying it to be their European manufacturing base, assuming sales start rising again now that their range is improving again. Whether they can afford it is another matter.
Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by managing decline.
Profits were up last year at Honda...sounds like they know what they are doing
|
Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by managing decline.
Profits were up last year at Honda...sounds like they know what they are doing
Not necessarily. What WERE the profit levels, especially compared to those of the last 20 years, including accounting for inflation? And what were the financials of the car business with the rest (bikes, mowers etc) taken out? I just did a Google search and found this current information:
www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/honda-profit...x
|
Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by managing decline.
Profits were up last year at Honda...sounds like they know what they are doing
Not necessarily. What WERE the profit levels, especially compared to those of the last 20 years, including accounting for inflation? And what were the financials of the car business with the rest (bikes, mowers etc) taken out? I just did a Google search and found this current information:
www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/honda-profit...x
That says that sales are of cars have increased - just that they have had to give incentives to get sales due to older models.
|
Honda are shooting themselves in the foot by managing decline.
Profits were up last year at Honda...sounds like they know what they are doing
Not necessarily. What WERE the profit levels, especially compared to those of the last 20 years, including accounting for inflation? And what were the financials of the car business with the rest (bikes, mowers etc) taken out? I just did a Google search and found this current information:
www.autonews.com/automakers-suppliers/honda-profit...x
That says that sales are of cars have increased - just that they have had to give incentives to get sales due to older models.
But profits are significantly down and car sales in the EU decline by an already low number by 1000. This seems to me (reading that report and others here) to be due to increasing reliability problems.
|
That says that sales are of cars have increased - just that they have had to give incentives to get sales due to older models.
But profits are significantly down and car sales in the EU decline by an already low number by 1000. This seems to me (reading that report and others here) to be due to increasing reliability problems.
Honda (as most Japanese companies) are seen as very reliable by the general public so can't see any reason for a few less sales over the quarter to be down to that
|
That says that sales are of cars have increased - just that they have had to give incentives to get sales due to older models.
But profits are significantly down and car sales in the EU decline by an already low number by 1000. This seems to me (reading that report and others here) to be due to increasing reliability problems.
Honda (as most Japanese companies) are seen as very reliable by the general public so can't see any reason for a few less sales over the quarter to be down to that
Not so good cars and reliability problems, as well as poor marketing and general economic problems across Europe has in my view led to stagnating and lower sales for Honda in recent years, whilst rivals such as KIA and Hyundai are well up and continuing to eat into their share of the market.
I also think that they aren't replacing their ownership base which is older with younger people - the Civic Type R is unaffordable for most 'boy racers' at nearly double what the ealry-mid 2000s car was sold for, especially when insurance is factored in, and the Civic itself is a BIG car, much larger than the one from that era, and larger non-luxury cars just don't sell in big numbers any more, at least outside of North America. That's why they stopped selling the Accord in the UK.
Their pricing is also I think a big factor in turn off potential customers - the Jazz in particular is VERY expensive compared to rivals' cars. I think also people are looking to more than just boring reliability, but decent performance and handling. I don't think that their late entry into small capacity petrol turbos has worked that well either, as (other than some diesels) quite a few of their reliability problems are with those engines, and not the 'standard' naturally aspirated ones.
Mazda have had similar problems with lackluster sales in the UK because their naturally-aspirated engine lineup has, since splitting from Ford, been rather uninspiring in terms of performance (as well as having numerous diesel-engine issues), which is where the TSI engines of this world have proved so successful - performance AND decent mpg, and why so many manufacturers have been scrambling over the last 5 years to copy their success, with mixed results.
At least Mazda has a defined plan, even if we don't all agree in the UK that its the way to go. With Honda, I just don't see any cohesive plan for the future, and the closure of their otherwise excellent factory in Swindon shows that they are managing decline, at least in this part of the world. I mean - when was the last time any (as the OP says) cutting edge tech in their cars come about? The mid 90s?
I think the downfall of the R&D dept has led to this, and their original move away from and poor return to motorsport was a consequence of their previous expertise being lost to retirements/people moving to rivals and not being replaced.
Another good source of information is the SMMT website - to date, Honda's UK sales are down over 15% and are lower (33% lower) than both Kia and Hyundai, not much more than smaller players Mazda and Suzuki and less than half that of Toyota and of what they were 15 years ago.
|
|
|
|
I received an email advert today extolling the virtues of Honda's upcoming EV. Its still a prototype and looks a bit like a GWhizz (spelling?) mated with an Aygo.
It can get 80% charged in 30 mins but its range is .....drum roll.....125 miles.
Really is this the best Honda can promise?
No, almost certainly not. The car is designed for a fairly specific market, that is, trendy urban types who live and work in the city. So for that purpose, the range is more than adequate. As to the looks, well clearly you don't like it, but going by the recations from when it was first shown as a concept, you are very much in the minority!. In fact the reason Honda decided to put it into production was because of the overwhelmingly positive response. Though it has been noticed that the actual production model has been toned down a little, which is a shame, but still a nice retro looking thing with more than a few hints of the original Civic.
That said, what others have mentioned, that Honda should team up with other companies on the development of electric drivetrains is a no brainer.
|
Fair enough badbus but I still think the particular ad was ill-judged as it stressed the technology, not the urban runabout qualities.
Retro looks can work, such as with the MINI. I am not sure that an old Civic my (grand)parents would have had is the best starting point. However, as a Honda fan, I hope I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Mazda are already partnering with Toyota on the hybrids (the latest Mazda3 and forthcoming CX-30 has a mild hybrid engine to run the car's electrical systems [for the most part), so that's out.
I read it as Mazda wanting access to Toyota's Hybrid technology & Toyota in return wanting access to Mazda's new Skyactiv - x engine technology so they came to a joint agreement to work together for the benefit of both parties.
|
unlike Toyota who power every recent Lotus
A mere drop in the ocean.
In the 10 years from 2009 to 2018 Lotus made 7860 cars.
That number of powertrain units is not going to make Toyota more profitable than Honda is it. When Rover group supplied engines to Lotus production was far higher and it did not help them.
|
unlike Toyota who power every recent Lotus
A mere drop in the ocean.
In the 10 years from 2009 to 2018 Lotus made 7860 cars.
That number of powertrain units is not going to make Toyota more profitable than Honda is it. When Rover group supplied engines to Lotus production was far higher and it did not help them.
Going electric for the new Evija (pronounced 'eveeya', apparently), 1973bhp and 1254lb/ft of torque!.
Not exactly affordable though, at £1.5-2 million plus taxes.........
|
|
|
unlike Toyota who power every recent Lotus
A mere drop in the ocean.
In the 10 years from 2009 to 2018 Lotus made 7860 cars.
That number of powertrain units is not going to make Toyota more profitable than Honda is it. When Rover group supplied engines to Lotus production was far higher and it did not help them.
It’s not about profitability, it’s about lifting brand image. What better way than to link it with a performance car brand? BMW and Toyota have seen enough benefit despite the low volumes to work with Morgan and Lotus.
|
|
|
|
Mazda are already partnering with Toyota on the hybrids (the latest Mazda3 and forthcoming CX-30 has a mild hybrid engine to run the car's electrical systems [for the most part), so that's out.
I read it as Mazda wanting access to Toyota's Hybrid technology & Toyota in return wanting access to Mazda's new Skyactiv - x engine technology so they came to a joint agreement to work together for the benefit of both parties.
I thought Toyota were now licensing the Hybrid tech to other companies which means a lot more companies can use it, please correct if wrong (I read they started licensing the tech last year)
|
|
|
|
Given the high quality of that plant and its workforce, other manufacturers should (once any [hopefully short term] issues are resolved around Brexit) be looking to purchase the plant and re-employ the workforce lock, stock and barrel. If Mazda can imrpove their engines (especially if the SA-X engine works well), I think they should seriously consider buying it to be their European manufacturing base, assuming sales start rising again now that their range is improving again. Whether they can afford it is another matter.
Mazda are a relatively small car manufacturer and given the retreat by the Japanese to their home market I cannot see them buying any new manufacturing plants abroad. The Korean manufacturers have badly hurt them as has the strength of the Yen. The EU opening up their market to tariff-free Japanese imports means they'll not be venturing too far.
|
|
The CR-V hybrid is, by some margin, the most innovative mainstream hybrid drivetrain on sale in the UK right now. There's a waiting list.
The CR-V is the world's most popular SUV.
The Jazz/Fit is the most popular car through Pacific/Asia (ask HJ).
The Civic Type R is the most exciting hot hatchback (ignoring the looks)
The UK is a backwater for Honda. In fact Europe is. There's two Honda dealerships in California which sell more cars per annum than the whole of UK. They import great cars like the FR-V but we're too daft to buy them (only realising how ace they were once they've been discontinued)
They have a winning F1 engine again (took a while, but they got there. Toyota never did)
They've dominated MotoGP racing for decades.
They've dominated powerboat racing for ever
Nice lawnmowers. And generators.
As for the EV, maybe they've already realised that EVs are not the answer - remember they were the first into production with a fuel cell car, the FCX Clarity).
Oh, and the NSX tops the hybrid tech of the Porsche 918 Spider for 1/8th the price.
Can't believe this forum thinks Honda aren't a successful innovative company. I love their work, especially their commitment to motorsport
|
“Can't believe this forum thinks Honda aren't a successful innovative company. I love their work, especially their commitment to motorsport”
They’ve been retreating from markets for years and slashed R&D spending during the post 2008 global downturn while others such as VAG spent their way through. Yes I also love Honda but I hate to see them cutting models in the UK and missing opportunities.
Civic misjudged and pushed upmarket where sales plummeted. The Jazz production shipped to China where standards have fallen, no Accord, no luxury brand in Europe. We’ve a rather patchy range here and they’ve largely missed the SUV push. Yes the CRV sells well but the HRV isn’t selling anywhere near as well as similar rivals and the CRV is missing a key ingredient for a successful large SUV, a Diesel engine.
I love Honda, I’ve made plenty of easy money flogging them over the years and I’ve owned numerous examples myself but I hark back to the past when they had more depth.
It’s more costly than ever before to develop new models and teaming up with other firms is currently the order of the day, one which Honda if they want to survive must join in with. They’re not big enough to go it completely alone and genuinely compete. A link with Mazda and Suzuki would do wonders with a dose of Mazda and Suzuki’s chassis magic injected to Honda’s engine excellence. It would allow for a new Honda two seater sports car at modest money and cut costs all over.
|
Still find it astonishing they introduced the new Civic without an estate version.
Do they understand the high value retention figures and demand for used versions of the civic estate?
And to make it worse, they offered a saloon version - saloons generally don’t sell beyond the luxury segment.
I won’t add my other criticisms of the new Civic design and functionality as others have covered this issue numerous times, but they did seem to completely miss the target audience with the new civic.
Edited by daveyK_UK on 29/08/2019 at 07:56
|
|
Still find it astonishing they introduced the new Civic without an estate version.
I asked a few months after they first come out about them making an estate as I may have bought one apart from the changes they made put me off of the car.
Honda said they were concentrating on HRV sales to compensate for lack of estate, as it did the same job, but the Civic estate sales were not enough to justify production of an estate so I will keep mine for a while until they come up with a better design
|
|
|
Still find it astonishing they introduced the new Civic without an estate version. Do they understand the high value retention figures and demand for used versions of the civic estate? And to make it worse, they offered a saloon version - saloons generally don’t sell beyond the luxury segment.
It's really only Europe where estates sell in nos. & saloons sell in big nos. elsewhere (the US still doesn't go for hatchbacks in large nos) & obviously Honda have decided that they just don't sell enough Civics here for the additional engineering/production costs.
It's why there is no Camry estate from Toyota although they have at least produced a Corolla estate in Europe, for Europe (only afaik).
& nobody else seems to have mentioned it so I will - Toyota & Suzuki have agreed a deal (incl. cross shareholding) to cooperate uk.reuters.com/article/us-toyota-suzuki/toyota-pul...I . Supposedly hybrid suzukis are going to be built at Burnaston www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-47638644
Toyota are the most profitable car company in the world by far & they also build nice boats & houses :P
Edited by Heidfirst on 29/08/2019 at 13:17
|
|
I like my Jazz but -for all Hoonda's engineering expertise.. are their cars cheaper to run, betetr to drive or just more reliable..
Errr it used to be just "more reliable" butno longer it seems...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
