Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 13:56

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Stackman II

On my way to the beach this weekend I turned on to a nice straight road with good visibilty and no oncoming traffic.

There was a 1-series BMW ahead of me and ahead of him was a large Volvo saloon. I had been following the BMW for a few miles and was keen to overtake as soon as it was safe.

As the road ahead was straight and clear and there were no signs indicating junctions off the road I checked my mirror, indicated and gave it the beans to get past both cars. I quickly cleared the BMW and seeing that the road was still clear stayed out to pass the Volvo.

The Volvo had been travelling quite slowly and as I got closer to his rear three-quarter he stuck on his indicator and pulled across to go down a side turning which emerged on the right-hand side - right in to the path of my Saab.

I jumped on the brakes and swung the wheel right although there was only the turn-off to the right to go into to avoid a crash. With much screeching of tyres and swearing I managed to get my car into the turn off, missing the Volvo and the bank.

The turn off wasn't marked in advance from the the road and as the verge was at its verdant summer peak was difficult to spot. The driver of the Volvo was obviously having trouble finding it and completely neglected to check his mirrors before committing late to his manouever.

My question is, if I hadn't managed to avoid a collision how would blame be apportioned ?

I don't really see how I could have anticipated the Volvo turning across my path and he should have checked his mirrors before turning.

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 14:15

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - daveyjp

Take your pick!

https://www.motorcyclelawscotland.co.uk/why-choose-us/case-law/pell-v-moseley-(2003/

At least you are still here and have learnt how quickly an accident can happen,

Some family friends were in an accident a few weeks ago. Happily going along a country road following another vehicle. Raining heavily, car in front going too fast, aquaplanes on a corner at the exact moment an HGV is coming the other way.

Other car buried into HGV, driver killed, ensuing carnage hits friends vehicle which ends up in a field - two hours later they are extracted from their car with a few broken bones.

15 seconds earlier or later and the aquaplaning car would have gone off the road and into a field.

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 14:27

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Stackman II

Interesting links, thank you.

The one thing I was grateful for was the fact that I wasn't on my son's motorbike, which I sometimes borrow. I don't think I could have avoided the Volvo on the bike.

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 16:29

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Andrew-T

I think it just illustrates the hazards of trying to overtake two (or more) vehicles at a time, which can be tempting if they are both pootling along. But as has been said, not all junctions have warning signs, and even if they had, you might miss one while passing the first car. I wouldn't give it 50:50 myself. Just thank your driving skills and the ability of your car to avoid trouble. The Volvo driver is leading and has the right to make his turn safely - tho he should have indicated his intentions, granted. It could have been a slow-moving tractor .....

Edit - how do we know the Volvo driver didn't check his mirrors? Did he say so?

Edited by Andrew-T on 01/07/2019 at 16:31

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 14:57

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - craig-pd130

It would have been 50/50 as per the link above. Yes, the Volvo driver should have checked mirrors before starting his turn, but you can never assume. He probably turns that way every day, it could be an unmarked road / driveway to his house.

And the fact the turning is not marked is immaterial.

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 17:45

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Heidfirst

Mirror, signal, manoeuvre ... (or for the advanced driver mirror, signal, mirror, manoeuvre)

I imagine that the insurance companies probably would have gone 50:50 though.

Edited by Heidfirst on 01/07/2019 at 17:45

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 17:51

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Cris_on_the_gas

Most likely 50/50.

Volvo driver should have checked mirror prior to turning as per Highway code.

You should not have overtaken on approach to a junction, also as per Highway code.

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 22:24

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - SteveLee

You're at fault, you should never overtake when there's a junction involved in the overtake. What if a car pulled out left from that junction and hit you head on? As a biker I'm very aware about overtaking near junctions and the dangers it involves.

With sat nav in most cars these days it doesn't take long to glance down to check for blind junctions before overtaking.

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Mon 1 Jul 2019 22:27

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Leif

The motorbike link is a quite different case, it appears to be a queue of stationary or slow moving cars. In your case was there a sign indicating a turn? Was the turn visible? I’d be tempted to think you were in the right, but that’s not what matters is it. As my boss says, it’s not who’s right, it’s who’s left that matters. If you get my drift.

A year ago I pulled out to overtake, saw a junction ahead with a car about to pull out, so pulled back in. But the junction was obvious.

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Tue 2 Jul 2019 09:08

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Stackman II

As I said above, the junction wasn't signposted and as the verge was overgrown, wasn't visible. If it had been then I would have bided my time until the hazard was passed. I sometimes ride a motorcycle so like to think I would be aware of those dangers.

I am glad I fitted new tyres last week as they surely saved me from a lot of annoying paperwork and potential injury.

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Tue 2 Jul 2019 09:53

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - FP

I'm glad that no-one was hurt in what could have been a nasty collision.

It's worth pointing out that overtaking on a single carriageway road is always potentially dangerous and the onus is on the overtaker to make it as safe as possible. Overtaking more than one car in the same manoeuvre must increase the risk.

It's unfortunate that various visual clues (side-turn etc.) were not apparent to the OP, but even without these, there is always the chance that the driver being overtaken will speed up, drift out of position or even be downright obstructive.

I find that nowadays I seem to overtake less and less unless it's on motorways and dual carriageways.

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Tue 2 Jul 2019 11:43

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Brit_in_Germany

There was a similar situation where the Austrian skier Hermann Maier had a motorbike accident overtaking a line of traffic and the car at the front turned into a side road. Austrian and German courts decided that 100% of the blame lay with the car driver for not having looked before turning.

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Tue 2 Jul 2019 17:01

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Bromptonaut

The Volvo had been travelling quite slowly

How slow and what was limit?

If he was crawling in NSL then I suspect somebody practising defensive driving might have thought why? and held back.

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Tue 2 Jul 2019 17:16

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Bilboman

Salient question: At the time of the overtake, were you certain that the Volvo driver knew that you were there, in the process of overtaking both the BMW and him? If not, it's quite obvious where a good proportion of the blame lies.
Back in the day, a driver attempting a manoeuvre like this in rural France would have given a long shrill blast on his town and country air horns before overtaking.

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Tue 2 Jul 2019 19:11

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - madf

I ALWAYS am cautious of slow drivers as I assume they are: senile/old/incompetent/drunk.

So take great care and usually stay well back..(On a motorway I saw the effect of a driver falling asleep and going from lane 1 to lane 3 in 2 seconds before he woke up! Scary..

And on country roads I assume every junction has a tractor which will join with no brakes and signals..

In Lincolnshire about 8 years ago , driving to see BIL, was passed on a typical windy road by a motorcyclist doing at least 70mph in a 50 mph limit. I was then passed by a police car about 3 -4 minutes later..

Motorcyclist later seen a further 5-6 miles on - or rather his remains - scattered along the debris of a solid wooden fence he had obviously hit after going round a corner..

Country roads are very unsafe as are many country drivers...

Edited by madf on 02/07/2019 at 19:12

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Wed 3 Jul 2019 14:32

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - Leif

Salient question: At the time of the overtake, were you certain that the Volvo driver knew that you were there, in the process of overtaking both the BMW and him? If not, it's quite obvious where a good proportion of the blame lies.
Back in the day, a driver attempting a manoeuvre like this in rural France would have given a long shrill blast on his town and country air horns before overtaking.

I have almost never known if the driver I am overtaking is aware of my presence. I've read quite a few so called advanced driving manuals, and had some advanced lessons, and it's never ever mentioned, at least not to the best of my knowledge.

I wouldn't normally sound my horn, it might scare the other driver, and cause a wobble. I do sometimes sound the horn as I approach if I think the other driver needs to know I am there e.g. it's a narrowish road. But I do it before I pass, and assess the risk beforehand.

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Wed 3 Jul 2019 16:53

Near-miss this weekend. Who was most at fault? - barney100

Could depend on where you may have struck the Volvo. If you hit his rear then it would be your fault, in not then must less certain.

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