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2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bigshorty40
Hi All
Wondering if someone can help me with an issue that has developed with my Citroen C4 since changing the rear brake pads.
I thought it was going to be a relatively easy process to change the rear brake pads on my C4, like many other cars I’ve done in the past. I got to the point where the caliper piston had to be pushed back to allow space for the new pads, but realised they had to be rewound back in. This proved to be impossible while the calipers were still connected to the car so I disconnected each rear caliper to make them easier to rewind. Obviously doing it this way meant that I had to bleed the rear brakes again, which I’ve done many times before and thought I’d done well enough this time round. However, since the car has been put back together the brake pedal feels very spongy and travels almost to the floor, plus as the pedal is depressed I get this short whoosh of air noise come from the passengers side footwell area. The brakes still work fine, it just doesn’t feel right at all.
Can anyone please help me identify what has happened and what I can do to rectify the issue. Your comments and advice would be greatly appreciated.
2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bathtub tom

The whoosh of air sound I suspect is the servo and probably nothing to do with what you've done. Once you've a firm pedal make sure the servo isn't leaking air by pressing the brake pedal a couple of hours after running the engine.

I suspect the spongy brakes are because you haven't fully bled all the air out after disconnecting the calipers.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - edlithgow

I use a 50 ml enema syringe to pressure flush and fill the braking system. Very effective one-man operation, and very cheap.

Never tried it with ABS though, never having had ABS.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bigshorty40

I use a 50 ml enema syringe to pressure flush and fill the braking system. Very effective one-man operation, and very cheap.

Never tried it with ABS though, never having had ABS.

I'd be interested to hear more about how to perform this procedure if you have the time to explain it in greater detail.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - edlithgow

I use a 50 ml enema syringe to pressure flush and fill the braking system. Very effective one-man operation, and very cheap.

Never tried it with ABS though, never having had ABS.

I'd be interested to hear more about how to perform this procedure if you have the time to explain it in greater detail.

Not much to it. Discussed briefly here, with some alternatives

www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topic...r

There's more extensive explanation somewhere on there but Google doesn't find it and I can't use the local search engine since I'm banned.

If replacing the fluid you can remove most of it from the reservoir with the syringe directly, sucking from the bottom to remove any sludge, then top up, attach the syringe to the calipers, suck some through each one, and top up again.

Where it scores is with a system thats run dry, (these can be tricky to get air free) because you can fill upwards, (which is much better at displacing air) and you can cycle fluid in and out.

Entrained bubbles rise into the syringe and its easy to avoid blowing them back in.

Caveats:

Its said that excessive pressure used for upward filling can evert master cylinder seals. Can neither confirm nor deny this but in the past I've (foolishly, I now think) used as much pressure as I could physically manage, producing a vsible upwelling in the MC reservoir, without causing a problem.

You could blow dirt back into the MC, so I would only do it on a system I'd already flushed. That said, on my car extensive flushing didn't remove muck from the caliper pistons, still gungy when stripped, so I can't see much of it getting to the MC.

As I said, never used it on an ABS system, in fact I've only used it on one car, which may be especially robust.

There are various expensive commercial "power bleeder" alternatives, popular with Americans, because they are expensive commercial "power bleeder" alternatives, and they have to BUY STUFF.

However, if ,they offer any significant advantage I dunno what it is.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bigshorty40

I use a 50 ml enema syringe to pressure flush and fill the braking system. Very effective one-man operation, and very cheap.

Never tried it with ABS though, never having had ABS.

I'd be interested to hear more about how to perform this procedure if you have the time to explain it in greater detail.

Not much to it. Discussed briefly here, with some alternatives

www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topic...r

There's more extensive explanation somewhere on there but Google doesn't find it and I can't use the local search engine since I'm banned.

If replacing the fluid you can remove most of it from the reservoir with the syringe directly, sucking from the bottom to remove any sludge, then top up, attach the syringe to the calipers, suck some through each one, and top up again.

Where it scores is with a system thats run dry, (these can be tricky to get air free) because you can fill upwards, (which is much better at displacing air) and you can cycle fluid in and out.

Entrained bubbles rise into the syringe and its easy to avoid blowing them back in.

Caveats:

Its said that excessive pressure used for upward filling can evert master cylinder seals. Can neither confirm nor deny this but in the past I've (foolishly, I now think) used as much pressure as I could physically manage, producing a vsible upwelling in the MC reservoir, without causing a problem.

You could blow dirt back into the MC, so I would only do it on a system I'd already flushed. That said, on my car extensive flushing didn't remove muck from the caliper pistons, still gungy when stripped, so I can't see much of it getting to the MC.

As I said, never used it on an ABS system, in fact I've only used it on one car, which may be especially robust.

There are various expensive commercial "power bleeder" alternatives, popular with Americans, because they are expensive commercial "power bleeder" alternatives, and they have to BUY STUFF.

However, if ,they offer any significant advantage I dunno what it is.

That is certainly interesting to know, I appreciate the time you took to explain the procedure and perhaps it could be some thing to try in the future. Many thanks.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bigshorty40

The whoosh of air sound I suspect is the servo and probably nothing to do with what you've done. Once you've a firm pedal make sure the servo isn't leaking air by pressing the brake pedal a couple of hours after running the engine.

I suspect the spongy brakes are because you haven't fully bled all the air out after disconnecting the calipers.

Thanks for your comments, much appreciated.

I guess I'd better get out there again today and bleed the rear brakes again. I presume I'll only need to bleed the rears as they were the only ones I worked on, the fronts should be ok still?

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - elekie&a/c doctor
No, you need to bleed both front and rears. I would use a pressure bleed device.
2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bigshorty40

Just to update you all.

Did a two man bleed on all brakes this morning and the pedal feels normal again and brakes are working fine, if anything the brakes feel a lot more responsive.

I still get a slight hiss from the passengers footwell area when I press the brake pedal down quickly and hard, but with normal brake operation while driving I don't get the hiss at all. Be interested to know if that is a cause for concern or whether it could be normal? This is the first time I've done any brake work on this particular car, I've never had to press the brake pedal down abruptly since owning it, so can't comment on whether it was there before.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bathtub tom

A hiss from the brake servo is quite normal. As this is a French car (spit!), I suspect the servo is on the left and operated by a cross rod from the right hand side. The vacuum from the servo requires air to the other side of diaphragm. This is usually supplied via a foam filter around the operating rod - hence the hiss.

I'm sure elekie&a/c doctor will be along to correct any errors I've made.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - bigshorty40

A hiss from the brake servo is quite normal. As this is a French car (spit!), I suspect the servo is on the left and operated by a cross rod from the right hand side. The vacuum from the servo requires air to the other side of diaphragm. This is usually supplied via a foam filter around the operating rod - hence the hiss.

I'm sure elekie&a/c doctor will be along to correct any errors I've made.

I appreciate the reply, many thanks. And it is comforting to know that the slight hiss noise I get under extreme braking is a normal sound.

As regards to your dislike of French cars, I quite agree, I didn't want to get one personally, but it offers the two things that I need from a car with my health conditions and that is ease of driving and most importantly, comfort. If it's one thing Citroens do well at, then that is giving the driver and passengers a comfortable ride. I have realised since owning it that they do like to do things differently, and rather annoyingly as well.

Many thanks again.

2005 Citroen C4 1.6 SX Automatic - Air noise and spongy brake pedal when pressed - edlithgow

get one personally, but it offers the two things that I need from a car with my health conditions and that is ease of driving and most importantly, comfort. If it's one thing Citroens do well at, then that is giving the driver and passengers a comfortable ride. I have realised since owning it that they do like to do things differently, and rather annoyingly as well.

I injured my cervical vertebra many years ago doing military messing about, and for a while it looked like I'd have to get a Citroen DS

I was driving a Maurice Chevalier...wait, that's wrong...Morris Marina at the time, so it would have been a Starship Enterprise / Golden Hind stylee contrast.

Turned out they weren't available on prescription, so I used lots of drugs instead, and lately it hasn't been so bad.

This might be partly the lack of speedbumps here in Taiwan, in sharp contrast to London when I lived there.