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Not sure I agree. Yes the likes of Audi and Mercedes spend huge amounts on advertising but that is because they are perceived as luxury/status brands or prestigious to use that vacuous marketing term. VW, Seat and Skoda are hardly that and yet many have a view they are better than Japanese cars. I consider Toyota and some other Japanese brands superior in build and reliability but inferior in features and design.
I considered the last Nissan Micra inferior due to being French, but having driven one and been a passenger in one, I actually quite like the car. But a Citroen C3 loan car restored my lack of faith in French cars. Phew. I like my prejudices to be confirmed ... :)
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Not sure I agree. Yes the likes of Audi and Mercedes spend huge amounts on advertising but that is because they are perceived as luxury/status brands or prestigious to use that vacuous marketing term. VW, Seat and Skoda are hardly that and yet many have a view they are better than Japanese cars. I consider Toyota and some other Japanese brands superior in build and reliability but inferior in features and design.
I considered the last Nissan Micra inferior due to being French, but having driven one and been a passenger in one, I actually quite like the car. But a Citroen C3 loan car restored my lack of faith in French cars. Phew. I like my prejudices to be confirmed ... :)
Which comes first, the perception or the marketing? They've worked hard for that perception.
I think you're right to say the Japanese brands, as a generalisation, lag in features and design (fashion and gimmicks for the cynical). For me, while those can be nice to have, they are very much aspects of marketing.
The first and most important job of a daily-use car for me (and I do understand that this doesn't apply to most people) is to be an utterly reliable and irritation-free form of transport.
I'll be driving to Yorkshire tomorrow, a tedious drive for which using the vile M1 is almost obligatory. I won't really notice the car (Mitsubishi Outlander auto). It will just do its job quietly and unobtrusively without drawing attention to itself while I hold the steering wheel, avoid the idiots, and listen to the wireless.
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"The first and most important job of a daily-use car for me (and I do understand that this doesn't apply to most people) is to be an utterly reliable and irritation-free form of transport."
As in the US..
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Absolutely true, if it fails to do that it won't last long with me! To be fair, most makes I've owned have managed that. The car is now a tool to me, I don't notice too much about it, I don't even listen to the radio much and no idea if it has Bluetooth or cruise control- I don't think so actually! So long as it works as transport and keeps me safe and comfortable I'm happy. I would say on average our Japanese makes have been overall much better electrically over long periods of ownership and more watertight. Every German car I have owned has leaked rainwater somewhere, as they age.
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"The first and most important job of a daily-use car for me (and I do understand that this doesn't apply to most people) is to be an utterly reliable and irritation-free form of transport."
As in the US..
Which is why Japanese-designed cars outsell European ones by several magintudes in North America and Down Under - I suppose this also has a component of usage as well, given people living in these countries are likely to do much higher mileages due to the size of the countries, as opposed to the far smaller and densly populated UK.
Reliability (especially when you're several miles from the nearest *anything* with possibly no mobile phone reception and harsh environmental conditions) is paramount as you don't want to break down in the middle of nowhere. Not so much of an issue be stranded in the wilderness in most parts of the UK!
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The land of origin and attitudes of the populous are a major factor too. Japan is a country of overpopulation, huge cities, tight spaces and overfilled roads. Driver appeal meant less than reliability and value while Europe has plenty of space, wide roads and autobahns. It took until the 1990’s when Nissan started designing cars for Europe rather than simply selling homegrown designs for driver appeal to appear.
That said the Europeans, particularly the German manufacturers still spend far more money on R & D than the Japanese do and their cars will remain more dynamic as a result which also appeals to the driver focussed motoring press.,They also spend more on marketing which only fuels the prestigious image which when you compare Mercs from the naughties with any Lexus of the same era isn’t entirely deserved. The quality was appalling on some of them.
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Which comes first, the perception or the marketing? They've worked hard for that perception.
A bit of both.
I think you're right to say the Japanese brands, as a generalisation, lag in features and design (fashion and gimmicks for the cynical). For me, while those can be nice to have, they are very much aspects of marketing.
Mercedes and BMW tend to be more powerful than Japanese cars, which appeals to the 'sportier' types ie boy racers. Not me though.
As I've said before, CarPlay is certainly not a gimmick, it allows me to safely and conveniently play items from my entire CD collection while on the move.
Japanese engines being older often do not have such good mpg. My VW Polo gave 69 mpg at the last refill calculated using miles driven and fuel in, and the two previous fills gave 68 mpg. That is phenomenal from a decent sized car with a petrol engine. And the ride is comfortable with relatively little noise in the cabin, it's rather refined. That said, I was in a colleague's Toyota Corolla, and it was quite refined too.
The first and most important job of a daily-use car for me (and I do understand that this doesn't apply to most people) is to be an utterly reliable and irritation-free form of transport.
I agree with that.
I'll be driving to Yorkshire tomorrow, a tedious drive for which using the vile M1 is almost obligatory. I won't really notice the car (Mitsubishi Outlander auto). It will just do its job quietly and unobtrusively without drawing attention to itself while I hold the steering wheel, avoid the idiots, and listen to the wireless.
Kind of like my own viewpoint.
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I still think that 'horses for courses' is the best reply for this thread. It really depends on each person's needs and what they are willing to put up with during the ownership life.
I don't think that German and Japanese cars mostly cater to the same audience as a result, with some exceptions. Thus the engineering, styling and marketing cater for that audience. It is probably worth saying, at least in the UK in the last 20 years or so that the German makes have managed to find and cater a bigger market for their product, but the other way around in other markets like the US, as I stated earlier.
A bit of variety hurts no-one and is to be celebrated.
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Having owned several Japanese and German cars I think it's a bit over-polarised. The view is often Japanese cars never go wrong, ever, and that German cars break six times a day and reliability just isn't baked in.
I'd say both are untrue. Yes, Japanese cars are by and large more reliable (and likewise the conservativeness in innovation comments are somewhat true) but in my humble experience I've had several German cars, including the 320d with the dreaded timing chain timebomb that supposedly breaks nine times a minute... bulletproof. My wife's Yaris, pain in the rear from day one and nothing but trouble. Statistical outliers perhaps, but that's our experience.
Less reliable would perhaps be fairer, but unreliable? No.
Where my wife and I have seen significant differences is in ongoing cost (I'm looking at you BMW) with the 320 wanting endless dealer trips for this and that. Servicing, plus the extras, it's damned expensive in comparison to a Japanese equivalent. Perhaps just a lot more preventative component replacement (and cost) baked in than Japanese counterparts perhaps?
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There can be no definitive answer to this in the modern era of manufacture. The badge or company ownership may be German or Japanese but the major components, engines etc are often shared by the various makes and cars now being put together in foreign lands to their badges. I.e. the global economy is everywhere in the car industry.
Personally when Nissan was Nissan perhaps Jap but for me German every time, design materials and a stronger feel to the car.
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I don't think that anyone has said (other than you just now) that German cars 'break nine times a minute' nor that ALL of them are unreliable, just that, as you say, Japanese designed and built cars tend to be more reliable than makes from elsewhere in the world because they are indeed more conservative as regards adopting new technology.
Maybe we can say that European makes spend more of their time on the R and Oriental makes (with some exceptions, especially those owned by/tied up with European/US car firms) on the D of R&D. Many European makes (especially nowadays) appear to be increasingly in a hurry to introduce new tech in their cars - that may sell more cars at the moment, but the problems associated with such tech requiring remedial software updates on a regular basis (or repeat goes to fix a problem) may not bode well for future sales if the public grows weary of this sort of thing.
I would also venture to suggest that a greater percentage of people buying Japanese cars are planning on keeping theirs longer than their European rivals.
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I don't think that anyone has said (other than you just now) that German cars 'break nine times a minute' nor that ALL of them are unreliable, just that, as you say, Japanese designed and built cars tend to be more reliable than makes from elsewhere in the world because they are indeed more conservative as regards adopting new technology.
Maybe we can say that European makes spend more of their time on the R and Oriental makes (with some exceptions, especially those owned by/tied up with European/US car firms) on the D of R&D. Many European makes (especially nowadays) appear to be increasingly in a hurry to introduce new tech in their cars - that may sell more cars at the moment, but the problems associated with such tech requiring remedial software updates on a regular basis (or repeat goes to fix a problem) may not bode well for future sales if the public grows weary of this sort of thing.
I would also venture to suggest that a greater percentage of people buying Japanese cars are planning on keeping theirs longer than their European rivals.
Engineering Andy, I love the 'brackets ' but I suspect many on here struggle to read your posts.
BTW, I don't believe the OP has got back yet?
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Engineering Andy, I love the 'brackets ' but I suspect many on here struggle to read your posts.
I tend to skip his overlong bracket-ridden posts.
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Hey, don't listen to them Andy - keep on keeping on! :-)
Edited by Slow Eddie on 02/06/2019 at 14:27
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Hey, don't listen to them Andy - keep on keeping on! :-)
Agree. I read em all and I’m a bit of a bracketeer too.
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may not bode well for future sales if the public grows weary of this sort of thing.
I doubt that, if people buy cars that need money spent on them during there ownership, ie buy a car because they like them and don't care about cost [a lot do]
they are hardly going to worry about the tech costs....
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I have a German car and two Japanese ones. I like them all, for different reasons, and they have all been very reliable.
Confusing isn't it?
;-)
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Hey, don't listen to them Andy - keep on keeping on! :-)
Agree. I read em all and I’m a bit of a bracketeer too.
Me too. There are quite often posts on here and it is not clear what is being replied to because whoever is posting has either replied to the most recent post, which is not neccessarily what they are intending to reply to, or have not bracketed the specific point or post. Doing so makes it so much easier to follow what is being said and allows you to address either more than one point of another post individually, or address specific points from more than one other post.
And speaking as someone who did only the basic schooling and didn't leave with very good results from that, i find no difficulty at all following Andy's posts. So i can't imagine why anyone else would struggle?.
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Hey, don't listen to them Andy - keep on keeping on! :-)
Agree. I read em all and I’m a bit of a bracketeer too.
Me too. There are quite often posts on here and it is not clear what is being replied to because whoever is posting has either replied to the most recent post, which is not neccessarily what they are intending to reply to, or have not bracketed the specific point or post. Doing so makes it so much easier to follow what is being said and allows you to address either more than one point of another post individually, or address specific points from more than one other post.
And speaking as someone who did only the basic schooling and didn't leave with very good results from that, i find no difficulty at all following Andy's posts. So i can't imagine why anyone else would struggle?.
Blame Twitter? I've had colleagues of mine on a private forum for a residents association moan at me for needing to explain issues using more than a couple of sentences or in 'paragraphs'. That often leads to issues not getting resolved because they don't want to fully discuss them, even at meetings.
I was never one for reading books as a child (more into TV, especially sci-fi) and thus at school, English was not my forte, more science and maths (hence the engineer). I did improve, because I had to. I probably go into too much detail on occasion.
Sorry to go off topic a bit.
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There is indeed a tendency here to eulogise Japanese cars and damn others. My Nissan Micra (old style mini ripoff) had numerous issues and fell to pieces after ten years, including serious rust. Japanese cars tend to be more reliable, but a given car can be a dog especially if bought used and mistreated.
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There is indeed a tendency here to eulogise Japanese cars and damn others. My Nissan Micra (old style mini ripoff) had numerous issues and fell to pieces after ten years, including serious rust. Japanese cars tend to be more reliable, but a given car can be a dog especially if bought used and mistreated.
I simply use a speak as you find philosophy.
I've favoured Japanese vehicles for some years now (specifically Toyota) due to their reliability and no fuss approach to motoring.
I've had so many marques over 50+ years...and have had good and not so good,,and that includes Italian, French, German, American, Asian, Japanese..and even back to the days of BL when I started with a 1960 mini and ended up with a Wolseley 18/85..the land crab and my very first automatic...most did the job they were expected to do but motoring was somewhat different in those days and a degree of owner involvement in terms of maintenance was expected and indeed desired.
My wife had a 2.0 Renault Megane C/C for EIGHT years...never put a foot wrong and the only niggle I recall was the extreme difficulty of changing a headlight bulb, where having the hands and arms of a Barbie Doll was preferable...I never even had to replace a coil pack.!...almost unheard of.
So yes, there are many good cars out there....but for me I guess I play safe these days and stick with my tried and tested formula of favouring Japanese..
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Although significant to the owners concerned, the individual experience of owners is statistically insignificant because the number(s) are so small.
The three German-built cars I owned, one Ford, two Vauxhalls, were very reliable, by the standard of the day - much better in terms of rust than Japanese cars of the same era - later on I bought a Subaru which itself was faultless, but let down by the Panasonic battery which failed in its 2nd British winter and replace with a Bosch!
From my one example, the problem with Japanese cars is the functional design - the Subaru Outback was great for reliability and driving dynamics but was too restricted in legroom and rear seat width and no diesel available at the time, with a rubbish diesel introduced later.
I presently have a "German" VW, built in Slovakia, a Touareg SUV, and if I had to replace it there's no Japanese competitor and the British ones have a poor reputation so I'd probably end up with German again.
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Although significant to the owners concerned, the individual experience of owners is statistically insignificant because the number(s) are so small.
The three German-built cars I owned, one Ford, two Vauxhalls, were very reliable, by the standard of the day - much better in terms of rust than Japanese cars of the same era - later on I bought a Subaru which itself was faultless, but let down by the Panasonic battery which failed in its 2nd British winter and replace with a Bosch!
From my one example, the problem with Japanese cars is the functional design - the Subaru Outback was great for reliability and driving dynamics but was too restricted in legroom and rear seat width and no diesel available at the time, with a rubbish diesel introduced later.
I presently have a "German" VW, built in Slovakia, a Touareg SUV, and if I had to replace it there's no Japanese competitor and the British ones have a poor reputation so I'd probably end up with German again.
Quite, you have to look at su rveys of large numbers of owners. However they do tend to survey owners of relatively young cars, which tells us zilch about cars in the 7+ age range, especially 10+ which seem to generate a lot of discussion here. And as you say standards change, companies change owner, new models appear with more or less issues etc.
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There is indeed a tendency here to eulogise Japanese cars and damn others. My Nissan Micra (old style mini ripoff) had numerous issues and fell to pieces after ten years, including serious rust. Japanese cars tend to be more reliable, but a given car can be a dog especially if bought used and mistreated.
To be fair, the later models post-Renault tie-up were more re-badged Clios (with a Nissan petrol engine) than Micras, and I noticed in the run-up to that same tie-up, Nissan significantly reduced the quality of the trim and body panels of the run-out 'K11' Micra that went out of production in about 2001 or so.
My own K11 Micra built in Sunderland but wholy Japanese designed was generally very reliable, with only two issues in the nearly 8 years I owned it (from 2 years old): an engine temperature sensor problem which was fixed FOC outside the warranty and never gave a problem again, and, eventually, as Leif's succumbed to, rust.
It needed a patch welded to the sill near the seatbelt mounting point (cost £75 back in late 2005) to pass its MOT. The front crossmember was also corroding quite a bit, but after I PXed it for my current Mazda3, it soldiered on for a good 5 more years before presumably being sent for scrap (no more MOTs listed).
Other than this, it just needed general (cheap) servicing and one new set of tyres. 10 years life isn't bad, especially as it had to endure the very salted roads in my area in winter, and I didn't clean it off as much as I should've. I might've kept it for a few years longer had the rust not been an issue - it returned an average 52mpg, better than the 47 official figure.
I still see a few of these cars locally, and more than any Polo built round the mid to late 90s.
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There is indeed a tendency here to eulogise Japanese cars and damn others. My Nissan Micra (old style mini ripoff) had numerous issues and fell to pieces after ten years........
.....My own K11 Micra built in Sunderland but wholy Japanese designed was generally very reliable, with only two issues in the nearly 8 years I owned it (from 2 years old): it soldiered on for a good 5 more years before presumably being sent for scrap (no more MOTs listed)......
Fifteen years life is only just above average scraptime age. It would be interesting to know whether 'German' cars outlast 'Japanese' cars on average, but I doubt if there is any information beyond anecdotal. I think there are far more older cars around than there used to be, although I doubt if the average age of cars in year-round-on-the-road- multi-car households exceeds ours - 23yrs ....all thanks to a careful service regime, of course ;-)
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There is indeed a tendency here to eulogise Japanese cars and damn others. My Nissan Micra (old style mini ripoff) had numerous issues and fell to pieces after ten years........
.....My own K11 Micra built in Sunderland but wholy Japanese designed was generally very reliable, with only two issues in the nearly 8 years I owned it (from 2 years old): it soldiered on for a good 5 more years before presumably being sent for scrap (no more MOTs listed)......
Fifteen years life is only just above average scraptime age. It would be interesting to know whether 'German' cars outlast 'Japanese' cars on average, but I doubt if there is any information beyond anecdotal. I think there are far more older cars around than there used to be, although I doubt if the average age of cars in year-round-on-the-road- multi-car households exceeds ours - 23yrs ....all thanks to a careful service regime, of course ;-)
The vast majority of cars are economically scrapped rather than reached the end of useful life.
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There is indeed a tendency here to eulogise Japanese cars and damn others. My Nissan Micra (old style mini ripoff) had numerous issues and fell to pieces after ten years........
.....My own K11 Micra built in Sunderland but wholy Japanese designed was generally very reliable, with only two issues in the nearly 8 years I owned it (from 2 years old): it soldiered on for a good 5 more years before presumably being sent for scrap (no more MOTs listed)......
Fifteen years life is only just above average scraptime age. It would be interesting to know whether 'German' cars outlast 'Japanese' cars on average, but I doubt if there is any information beyond anecdotal. I think there are far more older cars around than there used to be, although I doubt if the average age of cars in year-round-on-the-road- multi-car households exceeds ours - 23yrs ....all thanks to a careful service regime, of course ;-)
The vast majority of cars are economically scrapped rather than reached the end of useful life.
Indeed - the availability of spare parts at reasonable prices for an increasingly complex car could mean that those with less of such tech that does wear out and is crucial to the car's operation will keep going for longer.
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Indeed - the availability of spare parts at reasonable prices for an increasingly complex car could mean that those with less of such tech that does wear out and is crucial to the car's operation will keep going for longer.
Yup - my old 18 year old Skoda (VAG) Octavia still going strong - possibly helped by the fact it is the poverty Classic spec 1.4 16v and everything is really simple and no complex extras such as aircon, electric windows etc. The rear brakes are simple drums and there is loads of room under the bonnet due to the very small engine so everything is easy/cheap to fix - not that much has ever gone wrong. The main body is in pretty rust free condition - the only things that were showing signs of rust were things like subframes, now treated/held with the fabulous Owatrol oil.
It came close to being financially written off a couple of years ago when I had an issue with the drum backplates rusting and the garage struggled to source pattern parts - Saved when I found a great skoda-parts cz site that had complete new drum assemblies for 67 Euros, complete with backplates,shoes, springs, levers, adjusters, cylinders etc..
Edited by Big John on 04/06/2019 at 22:44
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In recent times Korean cars taken place of Japanese cars.
It is a shame that Japanese cars don’t offer longer warraties.
I think in USA they offer 10 year engine and transmission warranty.
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In recent times Korean cars taken place of Japanese cars.
It is a shame that Japanese cars don’t offer longer warraties.
I think in USA they offer 10 year engine and transmission warranty.
Likely reason they don’t do it here is that much of their sales here come with diesels under the bonnet and the likelihood of expensive warranty work would soar as it passed 5yrs. The US market is almost all petrol and Japanese petrol engines are largely bombproof.
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