So many luddites who only see negatives and reasons why not. They are legitimate concerns but also easily solved, at least in part by existing technologies.

Luddites! HaHa - But where is the electricity going to come from?

You don't know do you? And the government hasn't got a clue either!

So many luddites who only see negatives and reasons why not. They are legitimate concerns but also easily solved, at least in part by existing technologies.

Luddites! HaHa - But where is the electricity going to come from?

You don't know do you? And the government hasn't got a clue either!

I don't think anyone has so far, plenty of suggestions that no one will pay for or is willing to pay for, and I really would hate to put a price on what it will cost. specially as we will have to foot the bill as usual?

That's the penultimate human problem, always wanting huge profits to get things done. Always too expensive. nick62 earlier in this thread mentioned greed.

Tidal power is reliable and clean. The UK has some of the most powerful tides in the world, probably the envy of some countries who would want to utilise it.

You have a massive ball of hydrogen burning for millions of years and putting out inconceivable amounts of energy. You have an enormous heat source a few metres under the earth. New estates could be built with solar panelled roofs linked to the grid. Shared geothermal heating and super insulated homes would stop reliance on gas. There needs to be a combination of sources from different areas.

We've been going for the cheapest options in the form of crude oil and gas but it's becoming clear that it's not sustainable.

Even if global warming was found to be a complete scam and the wildly changing movements of the jet stream were just a natural phenomenon, why would you not want to breathe clean air?

Apparently we produce 1% of the worlds CO2, but we should lead by example.

Won't work, too expensive though blah blah. The sort of thing that inventors and engineers have come up against all the time, lucky they didn't listen otherwise we'd still be living in caves, I don't know any famous accountants....

I could mention over population but I don't want to depress myself :-)

The "problem" with solar is storing enough daytime energy for night-time use - the UK has a few pumped-storage schemes but there's nowhere suitable for any more.

Imagine the scene - clear night sky with no wind and temperature down below -10, possibly a lot below - where's the energy reserve?

They are experimenting with Grid Storage schemes in California using batteries on a massive scale. I don't know how feasible that will be if taken up unless there are cheaper ways of making batteries that use more common elements. I take your point though.

The Tesla S was designed for the battery to be swappable but nobody was interested in the idea.

We cannot simply keep using carbon based power sources without killing off the planet.

Killing the life and ourselves on the planet while we are here. We are tiny in the grand scheme of things, the planet has been through far more hostile environments over time, it will be around long after we're gone. We will probably be one of the least successful species in terms of our existence.

Edited by corax on 14/05/2019 at 14:26

Kia currently quoting 12 months delivery on their new e-Niro, as there is a shortage of batteries:

"Deliveries for the new Kia e-Niro were supposed to commence in April. However, as a result of the e-Niro’s popularity and the production bottleneck, buyers who managed to snag one of the initial 900-model run may have to wait until the end of 2019 before taking delivery. John Hargreaves, Kia’s head of fleet and remarketing, said the battery pack supply chain issue is likely to remain “a restraining factor for at least another 12 to 18 months.”

Edited by colinh on 14/05/2019 at 09:08

Only if private ownership of ICE and hybrid vehicles was prohibited. If anyone wanted to drive more than their EV range of, say, 200 miles (which for most people is hardly ever) they would be either obliged to hire an ICE vehicle from a government approved outlet, or put up with the inconvenience of finding somewhere to recharge their EV.

Please don't give them any more ideas, you can just imagine how many budding apparatchiks would relish wielding their little bit of power there, maybe fly in the adolescent result of a disturbing child brainwashing experiment to pontificate on the subject to starry eyed devotees...anyone see the rapturous adoration in the faces of Milliband/Gove etc during the latest brexit diversionary wheeze.

Many things govt approved should be treated with the utmost suspicion, eg teaching children barely out of nappies about trans and other lunacies, when they should be starting a learning childhood.

I think it is quite feasible. Rather than thinking it will be electric cars only, true the future cars will be run on electricity.

A hydrogen cell which would be lightweight, universal fit to any vehicle. This would not be capable of driving the vehicle but able to charge the battery.

These cells would be obtained at stations by the road side that are currently selling Petrol & Diesel. You turn up swap the cells over and give the attendant some money or do the smart payment thing.

They are experimenting with fuel cell vehicles and Hydrogen top up machines in California, I think it costs around $100 a top up so a ways to go to get the price down though range is good

Was I the only one to read in the recent HJ news update that Sir James Dyson’s proposed electric car is planned to have solid state batteries, thus providing one solution to the problem of battery size and weight? I imagine that progress will be piecemeal but, like the ICE, refinement will happen over a period of time. Batteries this time, charging ideas next time - and you need people like Sir James coming up with the ideas, regardless of where he chooses to base his production facility.

I read that a while ago on the net, and will be interesting to see what motors he uses, I suspect if they are anything like his hoover motors they should be really efficient

Let's hope his cars are (IMHO) more reliable than his vacuum cleaners. Whatever we may say about the German brands on that score (and Dyson certainly has a case against them for the Dieselgate-esque sidestep on the motor effeciency), they generally do better in the reliability stakes (see Which? magazine and others).

imo Dyson are a good maker, most German electronics I've had just last warranty period so unless I have to, will not buy German, but as said each to there own but it remains to be seen as with any manufacturer

most damaged dysons I have seen, and have repaired some older ones, are miss treated and thrown around and some never emptied to the point they burn out

and I really do not rely on Which or any other so called testers as imo they are all biased in one way or another whatever they say.

All I will say its a good job the thinking of the car manufacturers and energy suppliers is far more advanced than those on here who think we are at 'peak' EV. I.e. the range of cars will max out at 300 miles and it will always take hours to charge them. 10 years is a long time in development terms, 20 years is a lifetime. There's plenty of info online from the horses mouth (i.e. National Grid) into how they are planning for inevitable takeover of electric vehicles. The possibility of hydrogen fuelled cars is also on the horizon if the plan to replace the natural gas network with a full hydrogen network across the north of England comes to fruition.

Do you have some links to these "horses mouth" sites?

A few thoughts to counter the negative waves:

• At present most hydrogen is extracted from natural gas. Burning hydrogen may be clean but getting it in the first place is carbon intensive. I have read that using electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen is hugely inefficient - not entirely sure of the physics and chemistry but if it was workable I am sure it would be the preferred way of hydrogen generation
• Batteries need not weigh 200-600 kg but could easily comprise a number of modules of (say) 40kg. The number of batteries installed would be a function of weight, range, cost, performance etc etc. Absolutely no different to ICE where number of cylinders, fuel tank size etc is a technical and marketing decision
• There would be no need for anyone to lift a battery. Simply drive over a battery installation robot and leave the robot to it. No different to driving up to a pump and ensuring the fuel hose will reach the filler.
• As demand for petrol and diesel declines, existing filling stations would transition to battery change stations
• Most car journeys are well within the range of a charged vehicle - school run, shopping, social etc and can be topped up back at base.
• Energy generation - we have 10-20 years to ramp up supply to cover additional vehicle needs at a time when demand should fall for other energy uses. Homes, offices etc better insulated and designed, online shopping obviating individual travel.
• Nuclear, wind, tidal are all proven green technologies. As a society we need to consider the compromises we are prepared to make to go green - eg: turbines on top of hills or offshore, impacts on natural environment of tidal proposals etc.
• There are some gremlins that may need sorting - need for large vehicles for towing and other power hungry uses, possible (highly taxed) ICE vehicles for those who are unconvinced by electric although fuel stations will start to become quite spa***.

All I will say its a good job the thinking of the car manufacturers and energy suppliers is far more advanced than those on here who think we are at 'peak' EV. I.e. the range of cars will max out at 300 miles and it will always take hours to charge them.

10 years is a long time in development terms, 20 years is a lifetime.

We've had over 100yrs since EVs first appeared, and the affordable ones are not much more advanced than a 1950s milk float, although they are lighter since the invention of l-ion batteries 40yrs ago.

I generally like the idea of a full EV car, the acceleration and the low running costs would be ideal for my daily 50 commute most of which is on roads with seemingly engineered-in congestion.

But the range and costs to buy are still the blocker, for now. Something with a genuine range of 250 miles that could be charged in a couple of hours is my aim, but I tend to buy second hand and for less than £10k so I'm going to waiting for a while, unless I lease of course

With my experience of dyson's I wouldn't touch his cars, much like the VW phenomenon it seems to be if you tell people they're well made often enough they start to believe it!

I think a lot of people like the idea of owning an EV, and wouldn't be at all surprised if at some point within a few years a motor is produced that is to a lot of peoples liking, regardless of price, if people like the look and its a reasonable advertised range will probably sell well

I have noticed around my area more Tesla`s around, parked in the road with cables laying on ground connected to the car, so people are taking notice and have no real concern about trailing a large cable across the path as they have no drives

but one thing I have noticed over the last 10 years is people are not taking notice of advice regarding reliable cars to buy, they appear to be buying what they want/like regardless of its perceived reliability or even if they were advised not to buy a certain motor, if they like it they will buy it regardless....

All I will say its a good job the thinking of the car manufacturers and energy suppliers is far more advanced than those on here who think we are at 'peak' EV. I.e. the range of cars will max out at 300 miles and it will always take hours to charge them. 10 years is a long time in development terms, 20 years is a lifetime. There's plenty of info online from the horses mouth (i.e. National Grid) into how they are planning for inevitable takeover of electric vehicles. The possibility of hydrogen fuelled cars is also on the horizon if the plan to replace the natural gas network with a full hydrogen network across the north of England comes to fruition.

Guess how the VAST majority of hydroegn is currently produced? Using natural gas. Using water (sea water - fresh water is too scarce a reasource to use in most nations) is VEY inefficient - see HJs own article about how little can be produced and the HUGE space it takes up (that's at Toyota's own plant, with loads of solar cells to power it for 6 forklifts).

PS. Do you really think our replacement and new nuclear power stations will be on line by 2030 to be the backup (and to fill the remainder of demand, which is still rising) when its not sunny and the wind ain't blowing? And 10 years isn't that long - my car does 40mpg, the current one does (real world) 45mpg - wooo! What a step change.

The ONLY time the world got its act together to advance technology in big steps was when it absolutely had to - WWI & II and during the height of the Cold War. We're now in the 'decadent West' phase now - the main changes in cars have been in the introduction of lots of electronics, which might be beneficial in many ways, but like having A/C on all cars, won't save the planet.

We need to make things last longer, not have anywhere as many 'throw away' components and have them made of sustainable, repairable materials and sub-components. That's going to take time to wean us of of.

I would be somewhat wary of buying an electric car from the likes of Dyson and to a certain extent Tesla, let alone all the other start-ups we recently saw at the Geneva Motor Show.

They may have developed innovative power train solutions but that is a very small part of engineering and manufacturing an entire car.

The established marques have many years of developing their production systems and the design of body and interior fitments and fittings.

We visited the Peugeot factory at Souchaux on our way back from Geneva and watched as the 3008s and Grandland Xs rolled down the line to receive their diverse power plants.

I would much rather buy a car from Audi, BMW, Jaguar, Kia etc. who have all the basics down pat and installed the electrickery as part of the process.

US car makers have minimal engineering xpertise judging by what they produce..

And electric cars will cost £billions as the technology changes..Which it will.. So any car company turning out less than 2 million vehicles/year and having loadsofcash is going to have to join forces with others..

And any buyer buying an electric car for heh next 4-5 years is buying obsolescence as technology will develop rapidly based on experience of mass usage.

I expect Ford/GM and Chrysler to be incapable of keeping up.Ditto Jaguar.And smaller Japanese makers.. (who are already forming alliances or have done so)...

No doubt Toyota, and probably Kia/Hyundai, will get it rght frst time.

Toyota say they are working on battery EVs, but they're taking their time and doing all the development work themselves rather than expecting customers to do it for them, the hard way.

The Prius is a fine example of this - a comparatively complex piece of machinery which was innovative when it came out but has an exemplary record for reliability.

They are also doing a lot of r&d in developing Hydrogen which Toyota and Honda think will replace EVs as they are cleaner, when you think all the emissions from battery production equates to a lifetime of petrol exhaust emissions in one go, as Toyota say the Hydrogen though behind tech wise may become the norm eventually...

and as Toyota have said EVs are not as green as made out to be

As I understand it, they will still be electric vehicles. Instead of carrying batteries they will have fuel cells, which convert chemical energy from hydrogen ,methane , synthetic fuel from plants etc.. into electrical energy.

I'm not over confident about the practicalities of this new technology. Fisker went bust when their battery supplier demised. Teslas financial acumen is still on a shoogly peg.

Their idea is to reduce dependency on batteries as they say to make batteries produces as much emission's making them as a petrol/diesel does in the life of the motor

its also cleaner than EVs as the fuel is hydrogen and water as waste where to charge an EV the electricity comes from mostly fossil fuels.

as of this moment no car apart from hydrogen cars are winning the race for low emissions as they all do one way or the other!

"It's also cleaner than EVs as the fuel is hydrogen and water as waste where to charge an EV the electricity comes from mostly fossil fuels.

as of this moment no car apart from hydrogen cars are winning the race for low emissions as they all do one way or the other!"

The problem with hydrogen as a vehicle fuel is making it pure enough for a fuel cell to use, and the huge energy cost of compressing it to store in a vehicle tank.

Compressed hydrogen in hydrogen tanks at 350 bar (5,000 psi) and 700 bar (10,000 psi) is used for hydrogen tank systems in vehicles, based on type IV carbon-composite technology.[89]

Hydrogen has a very low volumetric energy density at ambient conditions, equal to about one-third that of methane. Even when the fuel is stored as liquid hydrogen in a cryogenic tank or in a compressed hydrogen storage tank, the volumetric energy density (megajoules per liter) is small relative to that of gasoline.

I know what the problems are with all types of fuels, I only quoted what a Toyota and Honda technician said who are doing R&D into Hydrogen fuelled cars and testing said, and it seems they will carry on research as they believe it will replace all battery EVs eventually, Toyota seem pretty convinced Hydrogen is the way forward?

even tesla want to improve by reducing amount of batteries being used and will replace a percentage of batteries with capacitors which can charge and discharge much faster than batteries, needed for charging through braking and the charge being used for acceleration/extra power as and when needed

Quite a few of the smaller car firms, e.g. Mazda, are now partnering with the big boys (in their case, Toyota) to develop full hybrid cars and possibly EVs in the near-ish future. Like many industries, some big names will rise to the top to become the main providers of certain tech components, and the smaller players buy in such parts and add their own twist to sell to their market.

I think that the electric motor tech is now actually quite good - its the battery and charging tech, including the far more important (and costly) charging infrastructure problems that will take longer to overcome than many people think, especially as they require action at governmental/international (co-operation) level. We all know how difficult that is, especially with so many vested interests and convenient alternatives available.

Given that all the major manufacturers are falling over themselves to bring their EVs to the market, what does the future hold for Tesla?

Their USP was that they could supply a credible, practical EV but when their SP isn't so U and customers are going to back to the brands they know, Porsche, Mercedes Jaguar et al their market share will plummet.

They are hardly making money at the moment so where will they be in 3-5 years time?

They may license their technology to eg Ford.

That I suspect would change Tesla's profitability dramatically IF Ford went 100% EV..

BUT I see no signs that the US will switch within the next 2 decades.