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Let me explain more. My general point was in periods in the past eg late 60s to late 1970s and then Mid 80s to mid 90s I think as a manufacturer they were ahead of the game, much more the pioneer both on the Peugeot side and of course on the Citroen side too after they took them over (the latter was arguably less innovative to purists from 1974 on but Peugeot achieved a better sales performance by bringing them closer to the mainstream).
As examples the 504 and its Estate/Family variant in particular were seen as a well engineered sensible middle class option with a extremely good ride and available at a much cheaper price than the German opposition - there actually wasn’t a large German Estate car either bigger than a Passat unto the v expensive Merc (the high DM as ever causing much pain). Alongside the Volvo 240 estate the 504 had the large middle class estate market to itself for many years through the 1970s. It was the thinking person's purchase against limited choice in locallly made offerings. It was easy to explain why you bought one and I felt half my friends at school's parents owned one for carting you about to sport and to school.
In the 1980s the XUD engine revolutionised the acceptability of diesel power beyond the taxi market and for years and years was far ahead of the offerings of competitors. It started and sustained the mass movement of family cars and even modest hatchbacks to diesel and with good performance and amazing economy with little noise downside. It was far ahead and it was easy to explain why you bought one - if anything again it was the thinking person's choice - someone who had worked out there was something alot better than the bog standard Ford, ARG, Vauxhall offer.
In the mid 1980s onwards you also had the 205 - the definitive more sophisticated supermini that sold every where and saved PSA after an early 1980s recession. The gamechanging 205 GTI which showed their continued chassis expertise. Also the very light, quick and ultra efficient Citroen AX, the BX (which after its facelift started to sell in big numbers, aided by the XUD engine), and again with a very good ride and other distinctive features eg affordable pricing and good space efficiency compared to a Sierra. Again all of these had distinct advantages that differentiated them from their competitors and encouraged sales.
That is what I mean more about my perception that there is less that is distinctive about their current range. The move to offer SUVs is understandable but feels "me too", not getting out there in front of everyone and leading. What does it do now that is clearly ahead of the competitors and is known for it in discussions you might have down the pub and people then ask what you drive.
My surprise at the return to healthy margins (which is clearly commendable - we need more choice not less in the market) is that their offer between Citroen and Peugeot is very much in the middle of the market along with Ford and Vauxhall which I had thought was being squeezed by customers either going down to say a value brand like Dacia or going up to through a PCP being able to afford an Audi or a BMW or a Merc or sideways as a private buyer into Kia/Hyundai for a long warranty.
Interestingly a recent trip to France showed that unlike here they are much less in hock to the Germans and you see many more families and reasonably well off people in their own cars from Renault and Peugeot so they have at least on that turf recovered themselves and coupled with sharp cost control have managed to improve their margins.
I agree the 508 looks good. But it just doesn't immediately shout Peugeot to me. Perhaps now there is an increasing market for "not a German car like the rest of my street" and the 508 is winning that.
Another pet thought of mine is if the Euro ever disintegrated what would happen to the car market once the Germans got priced out with a new DM. Would it leave space for Peugeot and others to expand. That is for another thread.
Edited by Innerlondon on 14/05/2019 at 23:47
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