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Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Warning

Trump has said :

"Airplanes are becoming far too complex to fly. Pilots are no longer needed, but rather computer scientists from MIT. I see it all the time in many products. Always seeking to go one unnecessary step further, when often old and simpler is far better. Split second decisions are needed, and the complexity creates danger. All of this for great cost yet very little gain. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want Albert Einstein to be my pilot. I want great flying professionals that are allowed to easily and quickly take control of a plane!"

IN the past cars where just mechanical. Today car rely on on-board computers to do a lot of everything from engine management to the way the car handles.

In a jet plane, the on-board computer is doing a lot of things, to keep the plane flying.

Although, this tragedy might be the fault of the on-board computer or software. There has been a case, there it has saved lives. Such as the flight which took off from New York and struck a flock of birds. It was unable to return to the airport and the pilot was forced to land on the Hudson. They made the movie Sully and worth watching!. In this instance, the software was doing a lot of clever things, to keep the plane flying, but it was man-machine in harmony, which saved those lives. The plane in this instance was an Airbus. Would the outcome have been the same bird strike had happened in a Boieng?

I am always worried about software, especially if people's lives are dependent on it. Software is written by humans. There are billions of computer instructions. Whilst they test software to iron out all the bugs, but there can be some bugs which can be hidden and not found. all it takes is just one mistake. Computer programmers are not pilots, so there may be a gap in understanding aviation. If a phone crashes, due to a software bug, we can restart it.

Should anyone trust a driverless car which have been written by a human being? Or one which has the ability to override a human driver?

Even if something is tried and tested, but people can be sloppy, they can change something, which may seem trivial, but they may have introduced errors without knowing....

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Ethan Edwards

Wait till we get a computer writing code for another computer. It will soon become incomprehensible to people. There lies the end of the people. Science fiction today who knows where it will end up. Skynet...

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - oldroverboy.

For this time,I am firmly incline to be in total agreement with President Trump!

Monday and Tuesday I took 2 flights to the middle east, and I must admit that I hesitated before flying..

On that subject have you seen the video of the airbus flying slowly 45 degrees nose up at (I think ) farnborough, controlled by the computers......

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - oldroverboy.

The design of the plane has meant that the larger, heavier engines are mounted higher and further forwards than before and a such the centre of gravity and balance of the aircraft is different. One pilot said he had 45 minutes instruction on an ipad..

Hmmm..

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Leif

Wait till we get a computer writing code for another computer. It will soon become incomprehensible to people. There lies the end of the people. Science fiction today who knows where it will end up. Skynet...

Nope, that already exists. You can have one computer training the learning algorithm of another. It works well. There are Lenny if computers running algorithms that humans cannot understand. They trained one on court cases, and showed that it was racist in its decisions! I think that was because it inadvertently drew a correlation between guilt and black skin, and wrongly assumed it was causal.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - HandCart

>>"Nope, that already exists. You can have one computer training the learning algorithm of another. It works well. "

Eh?

How can you say "it works well", if the aforementioned algorithm automatically 100%-assumed a guilty verdict based on black skin?

Clearly, if a human cannot get to a point of understanding some algorithm that has been created by another computer, that is not a good thing.

If we blithely, naively let such algorithms control important decisions, disaster will result sooner or later.

Nevertheless, if all algorithms have to include a 'politically correct' subroutine, their productivity will probably dramatically decrease.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - barney100

don't forget Hal.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - craig-pd130

Driverless transport only works safely in very closely defined circumstances, such as the Docklands Light Railway. A free-moving vehicle that is not on tracks with safety zones etc will never be 100% safe, simply because there are too many external variables, let alone any programming / software / sensor glitches.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Andrew-T

All this makes pretty obvious sense, even allowing for Trump quirks (to use no stronger term). Until the control computers develop the ability to assess the solution to an unexpected and unprogrammed difficulty, they will be untrustworthy and should be confined to the experimental track.

But how do they get fully tested without being let loose? Answer I suppose is never to let 'em loose.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - FoxyJukebox

Agreed-most new cars have so much built in technology and extra toys now that even moderate use can still utterly drain a battery and cause chaos to all manner of internal chip settings, electrics etc. Even changing a dodgy battery is no longer the simple unscrew/pull out/screw up jobby.

I'm reminded of the joke announcement heard when a driverless car switches on- "Your car does not need a driver, it runs entirely on computers. Nothing can go wrong, can go wrong, can go wrong ....".

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Brit_in_Germany

I saw that Alfa Romeo has a recall out on Giulias and Stelvios for the cruise control re-engaging autonomously, potentially causing the car to accelerate in an uncontrolled manner.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - FoxyJukebox

If i recall ( and it was a fictional adaptation) the co pilot in the movie Sully did have time to reach out for the handbook and try and find a "solution" in the frantic seconds after the bird strike?

A brilliant movie.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Cris_on_the_gas

While I agree with most of the comments above and also have my concerns about automation replacing human beings.

There will be a big drive by Governments and Manufacturers to bring this technology to the market place. The reason Manufacturers will be put under pressure from authorities to implement this, how is this you ask.

Well in the UK there are about 1800 road deaths each year. Add all the other Countries in the world and the total must be enormous. Then add the number of seriously injured or life changing injuries suffered worldwide.

It is a pretty much accepted fact that 90% of crashes are caused by Human error. So potentially if this human element is removed then the number of deaths and serious injuries worldwide would decrease rapidly. Of course automation is not perfect as we have seen with Boeing 737. However the benchmark is set very low for any improvement.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Andrew-T

While I agree with most of the comments above and also have my concerns about automation replacing human beings.

There will be a big drive by Governments and Manufacturers to bring this technology to the market place. The reason Manufacturers will be put under pressure from authorities to implement this, how is this you ask.

One point ignored so far is the potential for hacking, or interference by third parties. That might be to reduce the completeness of control by the vehicle, or just to take over control, perhaps to steal it. Given the long history of criminal interference with cars, I suggest that may be the biggest threat. And it may not help the hoped-for reduction in accident stats.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Cris_on_the_gas

One point ignored so far is the potential for hacking, or interference by third parties. That might be to reduce the completeness of control by the vehicle, or just to take over control, perhaps to steal it. Given the long history of criminal interference with cars, I suggest that may be the biggest threat. And it may not help the hoped-for reduction in accident stats.

Or could this be mandated by authorities. for example in a Police chase plod would be able to disable the target vehicle and bring the chase to an end without endangering the public.

Or if you owned a vehicle and it was stolen you could disable it from your iPad or other tablet or phone.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Engineer Andy

While I agree with most of the comments above and also have my concerns about automation replacing human beings.

There will be a big drive by Governments and Manufacturers to bring this technology to the market place. The reason Manufacturers will be put under pressure from authorities to implement this, how is this you ask.

One point ignored so far is the potential for hacking, or interference by third parties. That might be to reduce the completeness of control by the vehicle, or just to take over control, perhaps to steal it. Given the long history of criminal interference with cars, I suggest that may be the biggest threat. And it may not help the hoped-for reduction in accident stats.

That's exactly the premise for the Will Smith film, "I, Robot". Look how well the AIs turned out there...

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - oldroverboy.

I don't know yet what I am flying on next week, but relieved to know it won't be a 737max8 ...

but on the subject of computers in cars, remember my initial problems of tcs/scs andd other warnings due to a faulty signal from the crank sensor,on my new mgzs haven't we read about total loss of power and power steering at motorway speeds on some cars. (Thankfully rarely..

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Avant

I take the point about human error being the cause of the majority of accidents: but there is the danger of an increase in accidenrts caused by automation - particularly when there is a problem in the communication or interface between humans and computers.

Captain Sullivan prevented a disaster because he understood his aircraft's systems and made them work for him, while never himself losing control. It's too early to say for sure, but there are reports that the latest Boeing crashes have been caused by pilots not fully understanding a new system.

I'm not a Luddite, but I'm still doubtful that computerised systems will ever take over coimpletely from the human brain.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Gibbo_Wirral

Trump talking rubbish again.

Air France Flight 447, and countless other air crashes were due to pilot error.

pilot error is the leading cause of commercial airline accidents, with close to 80% percent of accidents caused by pilot error, according to Boeing

If anyone is to be blamed for this Boeing 737 Max 8 issue it's Trump, because his shutdown delayed important safety fixes by Boeing being tested and approved by their government airline safety board (NTSB?)

Edited by Gibbo_Wirral on 14/03/2019 at 12:44

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - madf

Trouble with automation is: It may work very well in carefully restricted scenes- motorways even at high speed - and cities - mainly low speed.

But - as mentioned before - I drive about 500 miles a year on single track roads, passing spaces and horses/tractors and snow/ice /mud and fords.. Fords as in water of course.

I shudder to think of the extra automation required to tackle those - and if it requires manual input form drivers unused to driving due to automation then it will become more dangerous.

I'm likely to be dead or incapable of driving when it is fully operational...And in the course of getting there there will no doubt be several spectacular fatal accidents..

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - thecloser

Avant

I don't want to appear to be pedantic but I think that 'Sully's' name deserves to be quoted accurately. It is Chesley Sullenberger. The guy is a lifetime legend/hero.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - primus 1
Have you seen the documentary about machines taking over the world and eradicating human life.....terminator I think it was called....
Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Leif
Indeed. The captain made the correct decision to ditch in the river, and not return as instructed which would almost certainly have caused a disaster. The Airbus has flight computers that allowed a controlled landing on water. A non fly by wire aircraft would by all accounts have crashed into the river, as a pilot does not have the required skill or reaction times. Pilots were unwilling to admit that the Airbus control systems shared credit with the Captain.

As for cars, makers cannot even build current cars with reliable electrics, god help us when self driving cars are commonplace.

Yes there are ~2000 deaths a year on the roads, but I bet almost all are due to dangerous and reckless driving. The death rate for safe drivers will be much lower. So for those drivers automation may mean a reduction in safety, hence an increase in fatalities. Joy riders and speed junkies will benefit.
Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Happy Blue!

There is some excellent information on the net about the 737 Max 8 and the changes from the previous models. It is suspected that whilst pilot error may be a factor in the crash, there will be a major contribution from the way the MCAS system works counter intuitively to the previous models way of avoiding a stall.

However the Miracle of the Hudson was little to do with the aircraft and more to do with Sully''s decision to turn on the APU well before the ditching checklist told him to. This gave him computer assistance to fly the plane his way to safety. Again, all available in the NTSB report.

The relevance to cars is modest as in most cars you can turn an engine off and stop at 0 feet above ground level.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Avant

Apologies - yes, of course his name is Sullenberger.

As Happy Blue emphasises above, the point is that he used his expertise and brainpower to make best use of the computer assistance that he had, but ultimately to maker the decisions himself.

Even if I'm wrong, and computer systems one day do indeed surpass the power of the human brain, it will still be debatable whether it's desirable that they should.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - SteveLee

If this is was an Airbus the the US-biased IAA would not only have grounded the aircraft, they wouldn't have allowed it to be called a 737 in the first place! It's a new plane that was rubber-stamped with a reduced set of type approvals for being an evolution of the existing aircraft - when it was anything but. Boeing didn't document the anti-stall "feature" properly or train the pilots in it's operation, incredulously it only has two angle of attack sensors - who has two critical sensors on any modern aircraft? If there's an issue, how do you tell which one is misreading? You need three of everything - a child could work that out.

A fatally flawed aircraft - but they'll get away with it because they are Boeing.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - focussed

Comment here on why Boeing had painted itself into a corner with the 737-max.

theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/the-world-pulls-.../

(The andon cord is a Toyota system where any employee can stop production if something is wrong)

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - dadbif
This was in 1988, not a lot has changed....
youtu.be/I9gELPxPG8Q
Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Happy Blue!

If you read the report about that Airbus crash, the real problem was pilot error not a fundamental fault with the aircraft.

The 737 Max8 crashes are far more likley to involve a lack of understanding of how the aircraft works in an error situation, when the error should not affect the plane to the extent it did, the response of the plane to that error has never been communicated to pilots during training and the way to deal with the response is counter intuitive.

As has been said above, this plane should never have been built and if the software tweaks are not satisfactory to the majority of the world's aviation authorities, it could bankrupt Boeing.

The 737 Max series should have been a brand new design, but they bet the farm on the Dreamliner and could not afford to develop two new models so soon after each other.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - nick62

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/129369/any---boein...x

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - pd

I understand the conversion course from 737-8/9 to 737 max is about 2 hours.

The 737 basic design is 50+ years old - I believe it is basically the same cross section as a 707 or 727. It's been constantly enhanced and upgraded.

There are thousands of 737s flying and they don't drop out the sky very often which is why two brand new planes both of a very small sub-set of the 737 fleet crashing in similar circumstances is such a big thing and a big worry.

Not surprised they grounded them.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - focussed

I read one report from a pilot that the conversion course he did at his airline was 45 minutes on an ipad!

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Chrishunt

There appear to be a number of fundamental flaws at play here. The first is the maladaption of new engines to an unsuitable airframe thus requiring an extraordinary response to counter a tendency to increase positive pitch under high power outputs (the introduction of MCAS). The second is the amount of authority given to MCAS, i.e. the degree to which MCAS can move the tail plane. The third is the over simplification of sensor inputs (too few parameters with insufficient backups). The fourth is Boeing's rush to certification and the FAAs apparent willingness to accept the changes as evolutionary rather than revolutionary and the final one is the failure to properly train/brief pilots on the full implications of MCAS and why it was needed and, perhaps crucially, how to disable it in the event of malfunction.

All of the above is human error whether by design or accident. To put it bluntly the 737 MAX 8 is something of a Frankenstein's monster, which, some would say, should never have made off the drawing board.

As for cars, don't forget that computerisation has given us better performance allied to much improved fuel economy, significant strides in overall safety, as well as ever better driver convenience and infotainment systems. Computerisation ain't all bad it's just the idiots that do the programming that we need to keep an eye on.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - Andrew-T

As for cars, don't forget that computerisation has given us better performance allied to much improved fuel economy, significant strides in overall safety, as well as ever better driver convenience and infotainment systems.

Well, OK I suppose. It's just a pity that having put chip-controlled engines into lightweight car bodies - kept light for fuel economy - the designers soon frittered away the advances by making the cars 50% heavier than before. Of course much of that was because of the arms race for better NCAP ratings.

As for the infotainment, I can't help feeling that can distract some drivers who might otherwise look where they were going more.

Boeing 737 Max 8 - automation of cars - oldroverboy.

www.theguardian.com/business/2019/mar/18/boeing-73...s

www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/fai.../

Read the Seattle Times article and be very very frightened.