Average speed cameras

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 05:30
Average speed cameras - Cpow

I have recently had 3 speeding notifications through the post and thus 9 points for going through the same average speed camera at 54mph in an average 50mph on a dual car ridgeway. The camera was new and the 3 offences occurred within 1 week of each other so I hadnt known that 54mph average was above the threshold.

I do a lot of motorway driving and was wondering if anyone knew what (if any) the threshold is for these average cameras? I always presumed it was 10 percent over?

I'm obviously very keen to avoid this happening again so any help would be greatly appreciated.

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 08:11
Average speed cameras - craig-pd130

The ACPO guidelines are that the thresholds for prosecution are 10% + 2mph over the stated limit. That is, 35 in a 30 limit, 46 in a 40 etc.

However, those are only guidelines. Each regional police force is free to set its speeding thresholds as they wish - which could be as little as 1mph over the posted limit.

Personally, I think being done for 54mph in a 50 limit is harsh, but my opinion doesn't carry much weight with your local constabulary.

It may be worth you consulting one of the specialist motoring lawyers to see if there's any chance of getting the points rescinded, but in my non-expert opinion I think it's unlikely you'll have any chance of success. Otherwise, you may just have to take the points and stick rigidly to speed limits for the next several years.

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 09:08
Average speed cameras - bathtub tom

If your average was 54, what was your speedo showing?

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 10:32
Average speed cameras - FP

"...what was your speedo showing?"

If that is intended as a rebuke, it doesn't really fly. We all know (or should know) that speedometers over-read - some more than others. Probably most people make an allowance for that when they're driving. It doesn't make it more of a crime for your speedo to show 57 (or whatever) when you're doing 54.

The important fact is the actual speed.

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:29
Average speed cameras - gordonbennet

If they are really nicking people at 54mph over an average section, then many thousands of people are going to find themselves with decorated licences and possibly surrendering them entirely, as many people go through 50 sections at a genuine 55.

OP you mention a new camera, i presume you mean a new section of cameras because its the average time between the cameras in the average section that is calculated....it's amazing the number of people you still speeding in an average section and then braking to the posted limit as they pass each camera, maybe they know something i don't but braking to the posted limit isn't going to increase the average time between cameras the system has already clocked.

I have seen people in heavy traffic using the average system rather well (braver than me) in one particular 40 section during road improvements, one chap shot past dozens of vehicles at a high speed and then slowed to about 20 mph several hundred yards before the second camera which happened to be sited about 400 yds before the roundabout which was heavily congested all the time during the works, either a good guess or i wonder if had some method of average calculation, maybe on phone or satnav.

For some time i used a (no longer in business) Drivesmart GPS camera detector, that unit worked out your average speed in those sections, it wouldn't display a speed as such but would light up if you exceeded the set average in the section, if said section included a roundabout as one regularly travelled route did, you would have to travel fast to trigger a warning before the section ended.

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:48
Average speed cameras - skidpan

The OP was speeding and has got 3 tickets, that is how the law works. Break it and pay the price.

I do a lot of motorway driving and was wondering if anyone knew what (if any) the threshold is for these average cameras? I always presumed it was 10 percent over?

Despite getting 3 tickets the OP now wanting to know what they are allowed to exceed the limit by. Clearly they have not learn't.

Why not do what we do. In a variable 50 limit we set the cruise (or speed limiter if its busy) to 53 mph on the speedo. That way we can concentrate on the road and traffic instead on speedo wondering if we are legal.

Learn form your mistake.

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 12:38
Average speed cameras - Gibbo_Wirral

Why not do what we do. In a variable 50 limit we set the cruise (or speed limiter if its busy) to 53 mph on the speedo. That way we can concentrate on the road and traffic instead on speedo wondering if we are legal.

I don't have cruise control. I just do what I was taught to do by my driving instructor, and tested by an examiner - to safely multitask.

If your eyes aren't quick enough to dart a few inches down to your speedo then back again to the road ahead without veering into another lane or speeding up beyond the limit you really shouldn't be on the road. How on earth do they manage to look into their mirrors before manoeuvring?

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 12:38
Average speed cameras - Falkirk Bairn

>>I'm obviously very keen to avoid this happening again so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Drive within the speed limits!

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 12:56
Average speed cameras - skidpan

If your eyes aren't quick enough to dart a few inches down to your speedo then back again to the road ahead without veering into another lane or speeding up beyond the limit you really shouldn't be on the road.

Its not about how quick your eyes are its simply a matter of one less thing to worry about thus allowing you to concentrate more on fewer things.

I drove for about 36 years before I bought a car with cruise control and managed to multitask and avoid getting points. Had cruise control now for about 10 years and it makes life so much easier and very probably safer.

But lets be honest, this thread is not about making life easier or safer, all the OP wants to know is how fast he can drive without getting more points.

A bit of info for the OP. Drive 10 miles at 60 mph and it takes 10 minutes. Drop to 50 mph to keep within the law and those 10 miles take 12 minutes.

Is your life so busy that you do not have an extra 2 minutes in hand for your trip.

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Fri 8 Mar 2019 19:34
Average speed cameras - Middleman

I have recently had 3 speeding notifications through the post and thus 9 points

Not yet you haven't.

Provided the offences did not take place in Scotland and provided you have not done one for an offence which occurred in the three years prior to this one, you should be offered a Speed Awareness Course for the first offence. You should then be offered a fixed penalty (£100 and three points) for the remaining two.

It may be worthwhile asking the ticket office why the local police are not following the guidance provided by the National Police Chiefs' Council (the ACPO was abolished and replaced by the NPCC in 2015). As pointed out, under these guidelines enforcement does not begin until the recorded speed is (Limit + 10% + 2mph (so 57mph in a 50mph limit). There have been a number of reports that drivers have seen enforcement below that level but no details seem to have emerged. What force was it? All those I have looked up (admittedly only a handful) suggest they follow the guidelines.

Make sure you return the requests for driver's details within the 28 days allowed.

Edited by Middleman on 08/03/2019 at 19:35

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Mon 11 Mar 2019 16:44
Average speed cameras - concrete

This is always a grey area. How accurate is your speedometer? I think mine displays at about 8-10% over the actual speed. It is still quite unreasonable to expect the average motorist to be able to maintain an absolute constant speed within a few miles per hour, especially in long motorway road work sections. There has to be some give and take. In my experience these section always flow very well and remarkably few take the p**s. I tend to follow an HGV that is hustling along, they have an accurate tachograph so should be spot on. If the cameras are set to that low a threshold then it stinks of revenue gathering and not safety. No wonder they bring the law into disrepute and are despised my most motorist. More commonly referred to a 'cash cows' by the powers that be.

Cheers Concrete

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Mon 11 Mar 2019 17:04
Average speed cameras - skidpan

I tend to follow an HGV that is hustling along, they have an accurate tachograph so should be spot on.

I presume you are having a laugh. The M1 between Leeds and Sheffield is now classed as "smart" motorway and I can assure you that HGV drivers are amongst the dumbest creatures on this planet. When the signs display 50 mph we set the sat nav or speed limiter to 53 mph but no one else seems to bother. The HGV's get rich up your backside and try and push you along at speeds above the limit and refuse to move over to pass you. Its downright dangerous. They should be banned for life loosing their licence and livelihood in the process. The drivers are in charge of a deadly weapon and show no regard to the safety of others.

Ban the b******s.

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Wed 13 Mar 2019 15:57
Average speed cameras - Middleman

There has to be some give and take.

There is. The usual "give" is 10% plus 2mph above the speed limit. That's why I suggested the OP asks the ticket office why prosecutions below the NPCC's guidance are being considered.

Edited by Middleman on 13/03/2019 at 15:57

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Sat 16 Mar 2019 17:36
Average speed cameras - concrete

I tend to follow an HGV that is hustling along, they have an accurate tachograph so should be spot on.

I presume you are having a laugh. The M1 between Leeds and Sheffield is now classed as "smart" motorway and I can assure you that HGV drivers are amongst the dumbest creatures on this planet. When the signs display 50 mph we set the sat nav or speed limiter to 53 mph but no one else seems to bother. The HGV's get rich up your backside and try and push you along at speeds above the limit and refuse to move over to pass you. Its downright dangerous. They should be banned for life loosing their licence and livelihood in the process. The drivers are in charge of a deadly weapon and show no regard to the safety of others.

Ban the b******s.

Only speaking as I find. I have not had your unfortunate experience yet. It does sound disconcerting to have an HGV filling the rear view mirror. I wonder if GB has any comments. I wouldn't class him as a 'dumb creature' and he may have some useful input about this practise.

Cheers Concrete

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Sat 16 Mar 2019 18:44
Average speed cameras - gordonbennet

This dumb creature :-) usually sets the cruise control of the lorry to 46/47 mph on 50 average sections, if its really quiet i might run at 48, if i find i'm catching up with others i knock it back to around 45 or whatever speed someone sensible at decent distance ahead is driving in the inside lane at.

I want a smooth drive, 50 is the limit it is not a target and i'm not on a mission to save a kidnapped damsel, i want to cruise nicely at my speed choice in top gear at about 900 rpm and not be speeding up and slowing down in order to keep pace with the lemmings.

There are idiots in all vehicles out there, an idiot in a car sitting a cars length from the back of another car blends into the hundreds of similar fools who do this every day, when its done by a twit in a lorry it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I'm not making any excuses for anyone else, some car drivers deliberately antagonise and mess lorries about, which to me is a shining example of Darwinism in action, all any of us can do is go about our business as safely as we can, using common sense.

If you are in a car and a full size lorry is right up your chuff, then firstly you can forget all about that 5 star crash rating, it means the square root of sod all if everything stops dead and that half wit in the lorry smashes you up the back crushing your car like a matchbox into another heavyish vehicle in front of you, so all i can suggest is do not get into a peeing contest with a half wit, it and they are just not worth it.

On the road when i see an idiot, and by hell there's plenty of them, i want them in front where i can keep an eye on them, especially in confined sections like road works, a few miles down the road when it clears you can shoot past them with at least one lane between you...don't try and prove your appendage was bigger after all by brake testing the other fool for goodness sake, it makes you no better than they and it's entirely possible you could cause a massive pile up leading to other losing their lives and someone will have it all on dashcam anyway.

Just accept the fact there are idiots out there in all types of vehicles, you cannot change it so don't let it get to you, in too many cases other idiots have employed these idiots, examiners have passed idiots when it should have been blindingly obvious these people would be a menace pushing a wheelbarrow.

Personally i'm glad my time on the road is coming to an end in the next few years, all vehicle types have been dumbed down requiring ever fewer skills to drive, sadly this has not resulted in better drivers, quite the opposite, in all types of vehicle total incompetents can select D press the loud pedal and steer, and that dear fiends is where we are now at, and its getting worse.

My advice is to make sure your driving standards are as good as they can be, and just do your best to stay safe out there.

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Sat 16 Mar 2019 23:38
Average speed cameras - Avant

Well said GB (as ever) and thank you particularly for not rising to Skidpan's generalisation.

There are indeed idiots of all types who use the roads, including cyclists and pedestrians. But in my 50+ years of driving I am sure that the proportion of poor lorry drivers is smaller than that of other types of vehicle. Which is what you'd expect, as they are professional drivers and most are experienced.

SWMBO would heartily agree with your penultimate para - ' in all types of vehicle total incompetents can select D, press the loud pedal and steer'. She doesn't like automatics and thinks they take the skill out of driving. I'm not so sure - I'd argue that not having to worry about being in the right gear at the right time means that you can give greater concentration to the road in front of you.

Incidentally - great that like me you still use the term 'lorry'! Why make a longer expression and then abbreviate it to HGV? The worst example of that was when I was a school governor, and children were referred to by the education authority as 'age-weighted pupil units', or AWPUs.

Edited by Avant on 17/03/2019 at 16:57

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Sun 17 Mar 2019 00:31
Average speed cameras - nick62

........... children were referred to by the education authority as 'age-weighted pupil units', or AWPUs.

................... or train companies calling passengers "customers" and businesses using the dreadful description "human resources", what was wrong with personnel, (sorry to go off-topic)?

Edited by nick62 on 17/03/2019 at 00:35

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Sun 17 Mar 2019 13:46
Average speed cameras - concrete

Good comments GB and I agree with them. It is useful to practise defensive driving instead of getting into a peeing contest with an idiot. When working we had our own drivers and lorries to deliver plant and materials to sites. Occasionally I hitched a ride to site and it is amazing the things you witness some fools doing with a car. I take the view that there is room (just) for us all and all that is required is a small amount of tolerance and patience. Dream on eh?

Cheers Concrete

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 12:13
Average speed cameras - steedoc

First, the concept of fines based on an INFERENCE about how fast a driver must have been going between two points is wrong - morally and legally.

Second, the technocratic enforcement of laws is wrong and illegal, because following the same logic we should put speed-clockers on every vehicle - fining drivers whenever their inbuilt gps notices they are going faster than the speed limit.

Likewise we could have a personal drone following each of us around on our business monitoring every action we take.

In these scenarios, the agentive aspects of our lives serve only to give totalitarian authorities a whip to beat us with.

Nope - drivers must not pay such fines for 'average' speeding. It is drivers wont to select the correct speed for the conditions - and if a police officer feels they are a danger they should have the ability to issue a ticket.

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 13:09
Average speed cameras - alan1302

Nope - drivers must not pay such fines for 'average' speeding. It is drivers wont to select the correct speed for the conditions - and if a police officer feels they are a danger they should have the ability to issue a ticket.

Have you ever driven on the roads and seen some of the poor driving that there is? if there were no limits and you had to allow the driver to choose the speed there would be much more carnage on the road than there is now. In a perfect world it would work, however we don't live there.

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 13:57
Average speed cameras - Middleman

First, the concept of fines based on an INFERENCE about how fast a driver must have been going between two points is wrong - morally and legally.

We won't go into morals as the law generally does not consider them. The allegation is not based on an inference, it is based on fact. If a vehicle is measured travelling at an average of 60mph between two points, one of two things must have occurred: either it travelled at precisely 60mph for the entire stretch or its speed must have varied, and at some time exceeded 60mph. This is the basis of average speed camera systems. They simply measure the time a vehicle takes to cover a known distance and from that measurement its average speed can be calculated. If that speed exceeds the limit (plus any tolerance the police seem fit to allow) then action is taken against the driver. How is that illegal?

Nope - drivers must not pay such fines for 'average' speeding. It is drivers wont to select the correct speed for the conditions - and if a police officer feels they are a danger they should have the ability to issue a ticket.

Good luck with that if you are ever caught speeding. How did you stumble across this four-year-old thread? Are you studying to become a "Freeman on the Land" by any chance?

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 16:51
Average speed cameras - Adampr

First, the concept of fines based on an INFERENCE about how fast a driver must have been going between two points is wrong - morally and legally.

We won't go into morals as the law generally does not consider them. The allegation is not based on an inference, it is based on fact. If a vehicle is measured travelling at an average of 60mph between two points, one of two things must have occurred: either it travelled at precisely 60mph for the entire stretch or its speed must have varied, and at some time exceeded 60mph. This is the basis of average speed camera systems. They simply measure the time a vehicle takes to cover a known distance and from that measurement its average speed can be calculated. If that speed exceeds the limit (plus any tolerance the police seem fit to allow) then action is taken against the driver. How is that illegal?

Nope - drivers must not pay such fines for 'average' speeding. It is drivers wont to select the correct speed for the conditions - and if a police officer feels they are a danger they should have the ability to issue a ticket.

Good luck with that if you are ever caught speeding. How did you stumble across this four-year-old thread? Are you studying to become a "Freeman on the Land" by any chance?

There's a section of the Magna Carts that deals with speeding...

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 18:44
Average speed cameras - Andrew-T

<< There's a section of the Magna Carts that deals with speeding... >>

With a name like that, presumably aimed at road traffic ? :-))

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 13:57
Average speed cameras - Andrew-T

... Must find out what my 'agentive' aspects are ....

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 15:30
Average speed cameras - sammy1

Average speed cameras OK when traffic is flowing and that is just it average. Take the M4 around Newport 8 miles or so of 50MPH average. The thing is it is stopped or going so slow on parts that people do not realise how average works. If they have spent say 10 minutes getting to the tunnels which cause the hold ups then they can do a greater speed past them than 50. But no, few will dare to exceed 50 so that 50 is the norm all the way. And before the comments start I see nothing wrong in it just the sheer stupidity. The silly thing is that this applies also when the mway is dead quiet as at night. No road works a mostly 3 lane motorway empty save for a few lorries. Oh pollution is the reason given as if it makes any difference with all the braking and accelerating going on. Long downhill stretches braking all the time on and off the throttle really economical way to drive. WE must do as we are told or the fines and points will make you. Really looking forward to the 20mph. Lady just be fined after 28 years of driving with clean licence. Doing 24mph in the 20 on a downhill stretch. camera van positioned nicely to catch you. Impossible not to have to use the brakes to keep to the limit. Money spinner or road safety? The road in question is on a hill wide with little parked cars as the houses are all mature semis with nice drives.

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 15:48
Average speed cameras - Middleman

But no, few will dare to exceed 50 so that 50 is the norm all the way.

You're confusing the requirement to comply with the speed limits at all times with the desire to maximise your speed whilst avoiding being caught.

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 16:43
Average speed cameras - sammy1

But no, few will dare to exceed 50 so that 50 is the norm all the way.

You're confusing the requirement to comply with the speed limits at all times with the desire to maximise your speed whilst avoiding being caught.

Sorry I fail to understand this extracted from the wider post. Please explain

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 18:11
Average speed cameras - Middleman

Sorry I fail to understand this extracted from the wider post. Please explain

Perhaps this extract will help:

If they have spent say 10 minutes getting to the tunnels which cause the hold ups then they can do a greater speed past them than 50.

They can (and still not be caught speeding) but they can't (in order to comply with the speed limit). You don't have some "excess speed" in hand simply because you were travelling below the speed limit earlier on.

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 20:54
Average speed cameras - sammy1

Sorry I fail to understand this extracted from the wider post. Please explain

Perhaps this extract will help:

If they have spent say 10 minutes getting to the tunnels which cause the hold ups then they can do a greater speed past them than 50.

They can (and still not be caught speeding) but they can't (in order to comply with the speed limit). You don't have some "excess speed" in hand simply because you were travelling below the speed limit earlier on.

OK thanks very much.

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Thu 3 Aug 2023 21:34
Average speed cameras - mickyh7

Would you show us a photo of your NIP please.

If you do, it will be the first time ever anyone in England will have been prosecuted at less than 10%+2mph.

No one has EVER been able to produce paperwork as proof.

There are loads of threads about this on Pistonheads forum, with legal chaps pitching in.

I'm guessing the average speed was 40 mph or you have been in a closed lane (Red X) and your incidental speed is shown.

I'll repeat - No actual documentation has ever been shown, only mistakes, hearsay and my mate down the Pub- got done doing 31 in a 30 zone.

I'm sorry, but this never happened.

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Fri 4 Aug 2023 17:24
Average speed cameras - mickyh7

Hello again.

Well 24 more hours, and no actual paperwork proof?

I guess another Urban Myth has come and gone.

You guys choose what to believe.........

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Fri 4 Aug 2023 21:42
Average speed cameras - alan1302

Hello again.

Well 24 more hours, and no actual paperwork proof?

I guess another Urban Myth has come and gone.

You guys choose what to believe.........

The original post is from March 2019 - did you expect them to come back to you?

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Sat 5 Aug 2023 08:36
Average speed cameras - mickyh7

I guess not, I admit I hadn't realised that it was an old thread.

At least the points that the OP didn't get, would be off their licence now!

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