Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild

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Sun 3 Feb 2019 22:26
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I bought a car from a non main dealer yesterday having inspected, hpi clear etc. Has full main dealer history and the dealer ran through the digital printout to prove this when I bought. It wasn't til I got home and looked at other assorted paperwork that I found in the pack he gave me that I discovered that the car had a complete engine rebuild about 1k miles ago. This was carried out under warranty but was a substantial failure - head gasket, turbo, injectors - the works.

My question is, legally or under industry rules, should the dealer have told me of this? He clearly bought the car with that history too and was obviously looking to move it on as simply as possible, but it's a pretty fundamental thing not to mention. There is no chance that he was unaware of it.

My guess is that I have no come back. Having said that I will still be ringing and writing on top of that to state my unhappiness at this.

I realise that the car might actually be better now than it might have been on some ways but I now clearly have a massive doubt on it. Any advice gratefully received!

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Sun 3 Feb 2019 22:51
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - bathtub tom

Why do you think the dealer was unaware of the engine rebuild? Did you have access to its history before purchase?

If it's such a problem, do you think they would have included documentary evidence of it in the paperwork?

I suggest that, probably, like you they just accepted the file of documents without bothering to inspect them closely.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 06:22
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I think the dealer knew. I discussed the history with him and he produced the printed history of the car. This printout was then in the pile of paperwork I got beneath the invoice for the major repair. I was selectively shown that but not made aware that other invoices were with the car. Also the web price was 2k less than window which I had put down to Jan sales. They were getting a lot of interest in it because of this, someone else was even looking at it when I was there.

They pride themselves on being family run, good reviews etc so my theory is that they included for completeness. Plus presumably this work being recently carried out, this invoice is some sort of evidence of guarantee and if there are future failure I would be able to use?

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Sun 3 Feb 2019 23:04
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - SLO76
Highly unlikely the dealer would’ve known, the buyer may have looked at the service record but other than a casual flick he’s unlikely to have studied any paperwork. When I worked at a salesman I’d check everything that came into stock so that I knew everything about it but out of a team of 12 I was the only one who did.

Unless there’s something currently wrong with it you have no comeback but I’d be very concerned about a rebuilt engine that was flogged quickly after such a major repair. Possibly they were advised by the repairing dealer to offload before trouble hits again.

Out of curiosity what make and model are we talking about and how many miles has it done also how much did you pay for it?
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Mon 4 Feb 2019 06:31
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

Would a dealer really tell a customer to offload their own car?

It's a cx5 - I am kicking myself on the while thing really. I have bought and sold a lot of cars over the years and always steered clear of mazda. I read a lot of reviews and most were really positive, even owner reviews on honest john. Trouble is most reviews are done when people buy new so its more about how it drives as early failures are rare these days. Of course then I see this invoice and start googling and you find all the other issues with the diesel engine, diesel in the sump causing loads of failures plus head gasket going all over the place. The engine is a dog by the look of it. It's got 50k so should have loads to go on it at 5 years old.

Do you reckon failures like this are likely to be recurring even with a major repair now done? I am assuming that the work being done by mazda in some ways guarantees it?

I have a 6 month warranty plus the usual legal protection around this anyway. Will assess as I go in the coming weeks. I'm not risking the missus and kids getting stranded or worse still engine failing whilst driving.

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Tue 5 Feb 2019 00:19
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - SLO76
“Would a dealer really tell a customer to offload their own car?”

Yes, if they believed the car could be an ongoing problem for them and the owner.

“It’s a CX5”

Yup, Mazda Diesel engine failures are well known in the trade and on forums like this sadly enough but don’t let it tarnish the brand entirely as their petrol engines are largely bulletproof and their cars well designed and fun to drive.

Modern diesels are an ongoing problem with many brands being so troublesome that I just won’t recommend them to anyone. Mazda and Fiat diesels in particular but even certain Peugeot, Renault and BMW motors are pretty notorious. It pays to research before buying though I can understand why you thought you’d be safe with a Mazda.

On the upside if it was properly repaired under warranty by Mazda trained staff then there’s every chance it’ll be ok as long as you continue to service it with a Mazda dealer and allow DPF regens to complete before turning it off.

Edited by SLO76 on 05/02/2019 at 00:36

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 08:39
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - RT

I had a Hyundai which needed an engine/transmission rebuild after a head gasket failure while towing - AFAIK there's no need to disclose warranty work so I didn't when it was traded in - nor did I disclose the twice the immobiliser had to be replaced, all 5 road wheels which de-laquered or any other of the items that got fixed..

In the OP's case, only dealers of the car's brand will have access to warranty history so it's very likely the selling dealer wasn't aware of the work.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 10:26
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - gordonbennet

A Mazda Diesel it appears is a considerable risk out of warranty, it sounds like you did research the vehicle before buying, so how did you miss the myriads of reports of Diesel engine problems before you bought the car, if you change cars often i'm a little surprised you didn't already know about the marque's recent Diesel reputation.

I too think the dealer you bought from probably had no idea about the rebuild, he'd go cross eyed having to wade through every slip of paper in a vehicle's folder, and i believe the dealer has done nothing wrong here, you should check the entire history file before agreeing the sale.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:08
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I disagree on knowing - if they are able to go through paperwork to find a service record then an invoice with thousands of pounds of work from a dealer right next to it should be noticed. I'm sure they could selectively ignore it.

I know, hindsight is 20-20. I would point out though that it has a 4/5 on honest john and plenty of 4 and 5 scores in recent times for the same car. Obviously the good and bad shows a number of issues which I should have scrutinised more. Having said that, for every good car there is always a bad one and it's hard to glean the ratio sometimes.

I do wonder if the high failure rate is linked to the strange diesel in the sump issue. The oil dipstick actually has an x above the max point which the handbook states is the point where you know there is too much diesel in there and you need an oil change. I mean who actually designs an engine with that issue?!

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:22
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - FP

"I mean who actually designs an engine with that issue?!"

I don't suppose the "diesel-in-the-sump" issue was actually designed into the engine. It's more like the unintended consequences of other design decisions.

I'd be interested to know what was the year of manufacture of the OP's CX-5. My petrol version is 2014 and I kept well clear of diesel when I started looking round for a second-hand example in 2017, though at that point there was some feeling that maybe Mazda has sorted out the problems.

I'm afraid Mazda diesels have had such a poor reputation for some time that it's surprising the OP didn't realise. On the other hand, I do sympathise. On paper, the diesel version makes good sense.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 12:50
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - pd

On the upside the rebuild may have some sort of warranty so you may have that as peace of mind.

If the car works and meets the point of being "satisfactory" then there is no legal comeback.

I think you are assuming the worst without any real evidence there is an issue. I'd see how it goes. Not letting your wife out in it is OTT in my view. Any car, even a brand new one, might break down.

Keep an eye on oil and water levels and any contamination over the next few 100/1000 miles and if you detect any issues take it back.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 13:36
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

Thanks I thought as much, hard to argue it's faulty really. I intend to investigate the warranty around the rebuild specifically.

She is preggers and we are fairly rural so in the near future I don't want her stranded in the middle of nowhere. I know all cars can break but this seems a liability in the long run.

Will be keeping a close eye on it - thanks for the advice

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 13:53
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - sammy1

Car dealers usually know each other and main dealers offload their part exes or iffy stock to non franchise dealers or auction. In this case I suspect the original owner lost confidence in the rebuild, it may have been off the road for weeks being repaired. The repairer the franchise would probably have the same lack of confidence to warranty it so got rid. The dealer who sold the car would 99% certain know its full history and in my opinion should have made a full disclosure of the rebuild. I would have same reservations as the original poster and would reject the car on the failed to disclose the full service history. It is clear that with a rebuild the car is basically taken apart and rebuilt. It stands to reason that at this point new engine oils and fluids are used and the service should be reset and recorded. If the fact that the rebuild is ignored than this must be fraudulent. Car could be a ticking timebomb waiting to let go again which is often the case with a rebuild as stress is often put on other engine parts

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 14:26
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

Agree on this - have called to discuss but "nobody available" - will continue to bug them until they are.

I can't see how being shown a clean franchise service history but with the ommission of the catastrophic failure 3 months ago is legal. If I have a cambelt replaced I would put it on my service history. But a complete engine rebuild is not part of a service history? Makes no sense. The point of a service history is to prove the health of the engine primarily.

I suspect your definition of the relationships between dealers is spot on.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 15:20
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - pd

There is no legal requirement to disclose past warranty or service work. If it is present then fine, but warranty work in particular is rarely with a car as there is no invoice.

The only real requirement is that a past write off has to be disclosed and if the seller states the mileage as correct then it has to be.

If the car is performing to the standards a reasonable person would expect there is no right of rejection under law. End of I'm afraid.

You can try and reject but if the seller says no I can't see you have any further recourse unless you can prove the car is not functioning properly or have proper evidence to suggest faulty workmanship.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 15:26
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - pd

I can't see how being shown a clean franchise service history but with the ommission of the catastrophic failure 3 months ago is legal. If I have a cambelt replaced I would put it on my service history. But a complete engine rebuild is not part of a service history? Makes no sense. The point of a service history is to prove the health of the engine primarily.

There is no legal requirement on the part of service history. The seller is entitled to present what they have and if they describe a car as having a certain history it shouldn't be made up but there isn't some sort of list of what should and shouldn't be there. It is all so subjective.

In this case, as the paperwork was there the seller could argue you had a chance to inspect and didn't do so. That would be enough for them to win a case anyway.

If they'd been deliberately trying to deceive they could have chucked the relevant bit of paper in the bin and you'd be driving around now quite happy oblivious. The fact that they didn't rather implies they weren't trying to do so or had probably not even looked themselves.

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Mon 4 Feb 2019 17:07
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

It doesn't really alter the fact that the likelihood is that they did know about the issue. Have called a few times and unsurprisingly they are avoiding me - certainly not the behaviour of someone who didn't know of an issue. It might be a moral question in a clearly immoral market.

Got some good advice from trading standards. As expected there is no redress in terms of return unless the car develops faults in the first 30 days which clearly it hasn't (yet) - there is a case for damages under consumer protection act for a misleading ommission.

Trading standards now have a case on them too which in some way made me feel a bit better. Will follow up with some detailed analysis on their online reviews if no attempt to speak to me too.

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Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:55
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - pd

Trading Standards will not be remotely interested in what is a civil matter between seller and buyer. They wouldn't even open a file on such a thing.

TS are interested in criminal activity. If they have sold an unroadworthy car or factually misrepresented it then maybe there is a case but basically they appeared to have sold you a roadworthy fully working car so I can't see what the case is. The whole thing is so subjective I can't see where there is a case.

You've got a warranty, you've got your consumer rights so if it goes wrong use those. In the meantime I'd just drive it.

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Wed 6 Feb 2019 20:43
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

For the consumer trading standards and citizens advice is the same thing. I spoke to them and actually got some really good advice, I would recommend them to anyone who wants to know where they stand. Certainly more useful than a lot of the know all comments I got on here. I now have a case reference with them and I have a possible claim under the consumer protection act of 2008. Maybe it is subjective but I was able to use that with the dealer to get a resolution.

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Tue 19 Feb 2019 14:52
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - HGV ~ P Valentine

it is a fact that the problem does not matter unless he willfully deceived you, which means whatever he has said about the car must be true for legal reasons.

If he had said to you and you can prove it that it was the original engine then you would have a case, but if he said nothing then you have no legal leg to stand on, because

The onus is on you to check the car out before parting with any cash, it is your job to check everything about the car.

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Tue 5 Feb 2019 00:23
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - SLO76
“I disagree on knowing - if they are able to go through paperwork to find a service record then an invoice with thousands of pounds of work from a dealer right next to it should be noticed. I'm sure they could selectively ignore it.”

Dealers very rarely scrutinise such paperwork. As I’ve mentioned already I was the only one at our multi-site group who bothered and that included the management and buyers. Beyond looking at the stamps in the service book they didn’t rifle through receipts.
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Tue 5 Feb 2019 12:56
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - pd
“I disagree on knowing - if they are able to go through paperwork to find a service record then an invoice with thousands of pounds of work from a dealer right next to it should be noticed. I'm sure they could selectively ignore it.” Dealers very rarely scrutinise such paperwork. As I’ve mentioned already I was the only one at our multi-site group who bothered and that included the management and buyers. Beyond looking at the stamps in the service book they didn’t rifle through receipts.

Agreed. If they'd deliberately wanted to conceal it surely they'd have thrown the relevant bit of paper away and the buyer would have been non the wiser?

If they wanted to deceive why on earth did they leave it in the paperwork?

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Wed 6 Feb 2019 20:58
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I guess if they knew or not they wouldn't have said anyway so it's irrelevant. The main point for me is that the repair was so recent that I think there is a fair is chance it might have been known. Regardless of that it can be argued that a crucial piece of information on the state of the vehicle was missing which meant that as a consumer I wasn't able to make a fair choice. It isn't really about deception but more about what information a buyer should be allowed to find out. For example, is a well repaired rear end shunt write off which might be declared and categorised worse than a complete engine failure as with this case?

A written off car would be flagged and the value adjusted accordingly. Whereas the general view here is that a blown up engine is fine and no value should be adjusted. I personally feel that this is similar to a write off in the sense that the risk is that there is other collateral damage yet to be discovered or the repair is sub optimal which is essentially why write offs are cheaper.

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Wed 6 Feb 2019 22:14
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - RT

An engine rebuilt properly is worth more than a used one - any change in value for the car would increase, not decrease!

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Wed 6 Feb 2019 22:21
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

A car with all new body panels and a respray is worth more then too, right?! We should all go and buy write offs

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Thu 7 Feb 2019 08:46
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - RT

Where do you draw the line?

A car with a worn out engine is worth less than an identical car with a recently rebuilt engine - brand-new cars may have had "rectification" at the factory without the dealer or owner knowing.

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Thu 7 Feb 2019 11:36
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I think there is a big element of my problem being that my shoddy research has led me to buy a car with a dog of an engine. The failure it has had is basically as a result of that and it seems to me that even a rebuild is no great guarantee for the long term. I still can't get over the fact that they mark the dipstick with an x above the max because it's likely that fuel enters the sump.

As someone else said, driving a diesel Mazda with no warranty is a risk. All cars have this inherently but some more so than others.

I still say that it's a grey area to say that a smashed engine is ok but a repaired crash needs to be flagged. There are equally risks in both.

In your example of a factory rebuild you have a 3 year warranty. I have 6 months then nothing which is where I need to think about the long term risks of this engine versus others.

If you went to a dealership and were shown a car with a rebuild or one without you would go for the rebuild? I don't think most people would, maybe I'm wrong. It's not like it's a high mileage car that cost 2k.

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Thu 7 Feb 2019 12:33
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Gibbo_Wirral

Where do you draw the line?

A car with a worn out engine is worth less than an identical car with a recently rebuilt engine - brand-new cars may have had "rectification" at the factory without the dealer or owner knowing.

For me that would all depend on the care of the previous owner.

I'd be wanting to know why it needed a replacement engine - neglect? Is the rest of the car going to go the same way?

So, I'd probably plump for an identical car on its original engine, with evidence of care and service history.

Unless of course that model of car is well known for engine failures. Then I'd just avoid it altogether.

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Thu 7 Feb 2019 13:45
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - SLO76
“If they wanted to deceive why on earth did they leave it in the paperwork?”

Correct. If the dealer had noticed this in the paperwork it would’ve been binned and the buyer who has a car that works perfectly well would be none the wiser and perfectly happy.

There’s no case to answer here and entering into litigation would be a costly failure in my opinion. The OP bought a car which has caused no problems but they’ve found an invoice for a major engine repair and have now after researching it found out that this engine is prone to problems and they now want out of it. Unless the car has actually gone wrong there’s no case to answer whether you like it or not.

If unsure of the car’s future reliability then it’s time to accept the loss and sell or part-ex for a good petrol engined alternative.

Edited by SLO76 on 07/02/2019 at 13:49

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Thu 7 Feb 2019 21:00
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I realise this. Had a reasonable discussion with the dealer, he did make offers to exchange it but it's not worth it just to get another car I don't want. Law covers money back if fails in first month, dealer has to repair if fails in first 6. Wouldnt have much faith that they would do much without being forced but then legally they would have to.

Bottom line is that I will look to exchange pretty quickly rather than run and take the value down further. Might be superstitious but I believe that once a fault like this happens other will follow. Don't see the point in holding onto something that I feel could be a time bomb. Saving grace is that it was reasonably priced so I'm not too far off trade anyway although it's still money lost down to my stupidity.

It's a good lesson in how reviews work. If you look at this vehicle on honest John its 4 stars with a recommendation on the diesel. I trusted that review and did see a few failures on there but assumed that it was just isolated cases. I don't see that review as realistic on e you realise how poor the 2.2 actually appears to be.

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Thu 7 Feb 2019 21:29
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - SLO76
If you’ve bought it cheaply enough then you’re fine offloading early. Otherwise a very good car, nice to drive and though I’d point you to the 2.0 Skyactiv petrol the diesel is much stronger in performance and economy.

I’ve always been wary of anything that’s had major open heart surgery, especially if it’s offloaded soon after the repair which can indicate a cheaply done fix to sell but if it was repaired by a Mazda dealer under Mazda warranty it might well be fine for many years to come. Plus maintain it at a Mazda dealer and I’m fairly sure goodwill will be possible well beyond the end of the warranty term should it pack in again.

Good luck and possibly it’ll prove us all wrong and still be running sweetly many years from now.
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Thu 7 Feb 2019 21:45
Bought car with non disclosed engine rebuild - Boro boy

I think the diesel might be good in principle and when it works but really the while point of them for me is that they are supposed to run and run - so on that basis it isn't a good engine based on failure rate.

Agree I have always steered clear and that's why I was upset at finding this out after the event as it would have made me avoid. It was a Mazda repair but interestingly the paperwork suggested that they fixed it and it was still smoking so then they replaced all of the injectors.it literally had the lot replaced, head gasket, turbo etc etc. It doesn't suggest they did it well if it had to go back. Also I speake to them and they wouldn't release details of the repair and warranty due to data protection but they did suggest that goodwill repair warranties only apply to the owner of the car when it was repaired. So it might not be covered for more failure.

Thanks will make a decision in due course - like you say it is s really nice refined car for the money but it's just that niggle in the back of your mind...

Edited by Boro boy on 07/02/2019 at 21:46

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