any - dot 4 esp

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Mon 7 Jan 2019 21:05
any - dot 4 esp - blindspot

only just become aware of this. on the bottle it says, designed for abs , which is most all cars now, so how important is this

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Mon 7 Jan 2019 22:26
any - dot 4 esp - elekie&a/c doctor

Dot 4 brake fluid has been in use for years . All cars from 2005 have abs as standard. Looks like a bit of sales promotion to me.

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Tue 8 Jan 2019 01:12
any - dot 4 esp - edlithgow

Dot 4 brake fluid has been in use for years . All cars from 2005 have abs as standard. Looks like a bit of sales promotion to me.

Dot 4 brake fluid has been in use for years . All cars from 2005 have abs as standard. Looks like a bit of sales promotion to me.

AFAIK you can use DOT 3 with ABS, unless y'all can tell me different?

If you can't, that'd give me another reason to avoid ABS.

(I prefer DOT3 because its less hygroscopic (very humid here) and about half the price.)

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Tue 8 Jan 2019 12:20
any - dot 4 esp - Railroad.

If you can't, that'd give me another reason to avoid ABS.

Why would you want to avoid ABS? Surely it's better than sliding up the back of the car in front on a slippery road?

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Tue 8 Jan 2019 17:14
any - dot 4 esp - galileo

If you can't, that'd give me another reason to avoid ABS.

Why would you want to avoid ABS? Surely it's better than sliding up the back of the car in front on a slippery road?

I think Ed is averse to electronic gadgets as a) he hasn't a lot of faith in their reliability and b) the competence of local repairers.

In fairness, is it not true that ABS was developed to permit steering while braking rather than reducing stopping distance? ABS on snow increases stopping distance, doesn't it?

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Tue 8 Jan 2019 18:40
any - dot 4 esp - Railroad.

If you can't, that'd give me another reason to avoid ABS.

Why would you want to avoid ABS? Surely it's better than sliding up the back of the car in front on a slippery road?

I think Ed is averse to electronic gadgets as a) he hasn't a lot of faith in their reliability and b) the competence of local repairers.

In fairness, is it not true that ABS was developed to permit steering while braking rather than reducing stopping distance? ABS on snow increases stopping distance, doesn't it?

Cars are safer now than they've ever been before thanks to technology such as ABS and ESP. Nearly 40% of all fatal road traffic accidents were caused by skidding. That's why it's now a legal requirement for these systems to be fitted in cars and light commercials. And yes it is true that ABS was originally developed to permit braking whilst steering which was something that was always advised against before, but stopping distances are reduced on slippery roads as the TV programme Fifth Gear demonstrated and is available to watch on YouTube.

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Wed 9 Jan 2019 00:58
any - dot 4 esp - edlithgow

If you can't, that'd give me another reason to avoid ABS.

Why would you want to avoid ABS? Surely it's better than sliding up the back of the car in front on a slippery road?

I think Ed is averse to electronic gadgets as a) he hasn't a lot of faith in their reliability and b) the competence of local repairers.

In fairness, is it not true that ABS was developed to permit steering while braking rather than reducing stopping distance? ABS on snow increases stopping distance, doesn't it?

Cars are safer now than they've ever been before thanks to technology such as ABS and ESP. Nearly 40% of all fatal road traffic accidents were caused by skidding. That's why it's now a legal requirement for these systems to be fitted in cars and light commercials. And yes it is true that ABS was originally developed to permit braking whilst steering which was something that was always advised against before, but stopping distances are reduced on slippery roads as the TV programme Fifth Gear demonstrated and is available to watch on YouTube.

Could be, though I've seen several (all US I think) reports that failed to demonstrate any advantage of ABS in reducing accident fatalities. Reductions in some categories of accident were compensated by increases in others, particularly rollovers. I THINK this was explained as a change in driver behaviour, perhaps manouvering while braking, but its a while since I read it and I'd have to dig it out.

(Tip: If you want to make a credible technical point, don't cite Fifth Gear as support. People might laugh.)

Anyway, if my focus was safety I wouldn't be driving a 1986 econobox, and perhaps I wouldn't be driving at all, certainly not in Taiwan. All cars are unsafe.

My 2nd-hand aversion to ABS is based on the amount of trouble (based on other-peoples forum posts) it seems to cause for brake maintenance. I do my own brake maintenance and it is nice and simple.

I like that. Doesn't mean you have to.

And no ones answered my question.

Am I right in assuming DOT3 is compatible with ABS, in case I can't avoid the latter indefinately?

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Wed 9 Jan 2019 10:57
any - dot 4 esp - skidpan

There is b***** all difference in price between DOT 3 and DOT 4 brake fluid. What really matters is what the manufacturer recommends. Brakes are a safety critical component and using the wrong spec could well lead to a failure. Should that failure lead to a fatality investigations would take place and if it were to be discovered that the failure was down to ignoring the manufacturers specs I would hope and expect hell to descend on the car owner leading to prison or worse.

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Wed 9 Jan 2019 17:22
any - dot 4 esp - edlithgow

Dot 3 is between a half and 2/3 the price of DOT4 here, depending on where you get it.

This wouldn't be a good enough reason to ignore recommendations though, and I wouldn't do so, though I prefer DOT3 for technical reasons as well as on price.

Is the rest just your standard knee-jerk routine, or do you have a specific technical reason to think using DOT3 rather than DOT 4 "could well lead to failure"?

I'd have thought it was rather unlikely, unless, say, there are viscosity differences that might upset ABS systems. The difference in boiling point usually mentioned as the main difference isn't likely to be relevent in practice unless you are really really pushing it.

Re "prison or worse" (firing squad?) this is pretty close to fantasy. I'd bet a lot of money that a 3/4 switch would never be detected. Given the number of people driving around with the original brake fluid in 10 year old cars, which is actually unsafe, its not likely to be even considered.

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Wed 9 Jan 2019 17:27
any - dot 4 esp - skidpan

Is the rest just your standard knee-jerk routine,

No knee jerk, its just that I happen to believe that the manufacturers know more than I (or any other member of the public) know about their products. The manufacturers do not benefit from specifying a more expensive product and its unlikely that their dealers benefit much since most cars are serviced/repaired by independents by the time they need fluids changing.

Do it right or give up driving. Roads are dangerous enough without adding to the risk by using incorrect spec products which could affect safety.

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Thu 10 Jan 2019 14:53
any - dot 4 esp - edlithgow

Is the rest just your standard knee-jerk routine,

No knee jerk, its just that I happen to believe that the manufacturers know more than I (or any other member of the public) know about their products.

Ok, belief rather than reflex then.

Either avoids any need for critical thinking. Taiwanese students would love that. You'd be their hero.

Here's my favorite counter-example to the "You-think-you-know-better-than-the-manufacturers" line, though to be fair its a rather extreme one.

www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/172/lubricant-st...e

Its titled "Lubricant Storage Life Limits - Industry Needs a Standard " but if you read it you might reasonably conclude that "industry doesn't need a standard", since they don't appear to have one, nor any basis for one.

They survey manufacturer's recommendations for maximum oil shelf life

Table 4 (recommended shelf life for indoor storage at 20C) is especially instructive

Major oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) 1 YEAR

Major oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) 1 YEAR:

Major oil company D: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) 1 YEAR

Major oil company D: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) 1 YEAR:

Independant oil company B: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) Virtually unlimited *

Independant oil company B: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) : Virtually unlimited

Independant oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) : Infinite

Independant oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) : Infinite

1 year (!) isn't very long, and 1 year to infinity is a pretty wide range.

IF the 1 year had a basis in fact, it could mean that the major oil companies massive (but of course secret) testing of their latest oils, extending over several decades, has told them that their oil is particularly fragile sitting on a shelf at 20C but OK for 10,000 miles in an operating engine.

Perhaps they use Weird Science incomprehensible to ordinary mortals and which the independent oil companies can't afford.

OR it could be that their general knowledge of the chemistry of their product makes them think it might be particularly fragile, though its odd that the PAO, plausibly believed to be more stable in an engine, is just as fragile on the shelf.

OR it could be that they wanted to cover their big fat corporate a***, and pulled the smallest arbitrary number out of it that they thought they could get away with.

You tell me.

know which one I'd bet on, but then I lack faith.

Edited by edlithgow on 10/01/2019 at 15:16

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Thu 10 Jan 2019 16:54
any - dot 4 esp - galileo

Is the rest just your standard knee-jerk routine,

No knee jerk, its just that I happen to believe that the manufacturers know more than I (or any other member of the public) know about their products.

Ok, belief rather than reflex then.

Either avoids any need for critical thinking. Taiwanese students would love that. You'd be their hero.

Here's my favorite counter-example to the "You-think-you-know-better-than-the-manufacturers" line, though to be fair its a rather extreme one.

www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/172/lubricant-st...e

Its titled "Lubricant Storage Life Limits - Industry Needs a Standard " but if you read it you might reasonably conclude that "industry doesn't need a standard", since they don't appear to have one, nor any basis for one.

They survey manufacturer's recommendations for maximum oil shelf life

Table 4 (recommended shelf life for indoor storage at 20C) is especially instructive

Major oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) 1 YEAR

Major oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) 1 YEAR:

Major oil company D: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) 1 YEAR

Major oil company D: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) 1 YEAR:

Independant oil company B: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) Virtually unlimited *

Independant oil company B: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) : Virtually unlimited

Independant oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (mineral) : Infinite

Independant oil company C: 10-30W Motor Oil (PAO) : Infinite

1 year (!) isn't very long, and 1 year to infinity is a pretty wide range.

IF the 1 year had a basis in fact, it could mean that the major oil companies massive (but of course secret) testing of their latest oils, extending over several decades, has told them that their oil is particularly fragile sitting on a shelf at 20C but OK for 10,000 miles in an operating engine.

Perhaps they use Weird Science incomprehensible to ordinary mortals and which the independent oil companies can't afford.

OR it could be that their general knowledge of the chemistry of their product makes them think it might be particularly fragile, though its odd that the PAO, plausibly believed to be more stable in an engine, is just as fragile on the shelf.

OR it could be that they wanted to cover their big fat corporate a***, and pulled the smallest arbitrary number out of it that they thought they could get away with.

You tell me.

know which one I'd bet on, but then I lack faith.

As always, an interesting post, your contributions often stimulate debate.

Your location and lack of availability of materials commonly stocked in the UK seems to have led you to turn to experiments with alternatives.

Not always meeting approval by everyone here, but in the same situation I would take a similar approach.

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Fri 11 Jan 2019 05:45
any - dot 4 esp - edlithgow

As always, an interesting post, your contributions often stimulate debate.

Your location and lack of availability of materials commonly stocked in the UK seems to have led you to turn to experiments with alternatives.

Not always meeting approval by everyone here, but in the same situation I would take a similar approach.

Thanks

I think I'd be doing the punk technology if I was still in the Yook., since its amusing and can save money.

Its true that AFAIK, rust treatments like Waxoyl or Fluid Film aren't available here (which is a problem for comparative testing), but then there's much less call for them. My car is atypically rusty because (a) its very old and (b) a previous owner was a surfer.

I used Waxoyl in the Yook but didn't think much of it, and changed to motor oil/diesel/veg oil sprays.

Americans seem to be even more averse to punk tech solutions than the Brits, which is odd because there seems to be more "wrenching" activity there. I suspect its consumerism convincing them there is merit in buying stuff.

They're quite positive about oil-foil (and the heavier duty beer can variant) for brake drums here, but that's mostly because the resident Australian engineer endorsed it (it got short-shrift on HJ).

(Churlish to say so, perhaps, but the best posters on there tend to be disproportionately non-American)

www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topic...1

Here's a more typical response, where I suggested it as a cheap-and-easy treatment for an angle-iron barrier, and the favoured solution was a sprayed epoxy

www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topic...1

There's nowt queerer than folk.

Edited by edlithgow on 11/01/2019 at 05:49

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Wed 9 Jan 2019 17:53
any - dot 4 esp - Bolt

DOT3 rather than DOT 4 "could well lead to failure"

AFAIR you can mix the two but the DOT 4 reverts to DOT3 as its more hygroscopic and slightly different viscosity as you mention, but will work with ABS systems, its just not recommended -but has been done in emergency situations

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Wed 9 Jan 2019 20:35
any - dot 4 esp - bathtub tom

AFAIR you can mix the two but the DOT 4 reverts to DOT3 as its more hygroscopic and slightly different viscosity as you mention, but will work with ABS systems, its just not recommended -but has been done in emergency situations

I recall orange juice being used on a WRC event - it worked.

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Thu 10 Jan 2019 01:12
any - dot 4 esp - edlithgow

AFAIR you can mix the two but the DOT 4 reverts to DOT3 as its more hygroscopic and slightly different viscosity as you mention, but will work with ABS systems, its just not recommended -but has been done in emergency situations

I recall orange juice being used on a WRC event - it worked.

IIRC Cubans used shampoo (and rum?) during the long US blockade.

I sort-of-almost did the reverse because the Bendix Ceramlube brake grease sachets I bought in Australia got packed with the spare comp hotel shampoo sachets.

If I'd had soap in my eyes I might have got a rather expensive ceramic hairstyle..

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