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Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - BlueBiro

I am considering an engine decarbonsing service on my 1.9D (90,000 miles) for £75. This is supposedly hydrogen-based, "burning off 75% of the carbon deposits that prevent your engine running smoothly". I am getting 45mpg at present and there are no obvious problems. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - Brit_in_Germany

Which bits of your engine are suffering from carbonisation?

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - RobJP

If everything is running fine, then the engine isn't having any problems due to carbon build-up.

So it's completely pointless.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - BlueBiro

I thought it might possibly get better mpg but I'm fine to leave it as is; thank you for your comments

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - Oli rag

If it's otherwise running well, I'd leave well alone. There's always a chance that if all the piston and bore carbon is removed that oil consumption will increase.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - Falkirk Bairn

Treat your car to a few tanks of V-Power.

My X-trail 2.2 diesel ran better when it was treated to premium diesel.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - skidpan

There's always a chance that if all the piston and bore carbon is removed that oil consumption will increase

That is exactly what happened to my Anglia in the 70's when a friend of my dads told me to carry out the Redex treatment.

Remove plugs, pour in Redex, turn engine over by hand and leave overnight. Start engine and once warm pour the rest of the Redex into the carb with the engine running.

Before the treatment the engine was fine, after it the oil usage was considerable.

Learned never to use snake oil again.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - Gibbo_Wirral

There's always a chance that if all the piston and bore carbon is removed that oil consumption will increase

That is exactly what happened to my Anglia in the 70's when a friend of my dads told me to carry out the Redex treatment.

Remove plugs, pour in Redex, turn engine over by hand and leave overnight. Start engine and once warm pour the rest of the Redex into the carb with the engine running.

Before the treatment the engine was fine, after it the oil usage was considerable.

Learned never to use snake oil again.

Redex has been proven to reduce emissions and increase BHP. Not their fault you had a crappy car.

At least we now know the origin of your oft-posted "snake oil" comment.

You're the same as those who buys a lemon and then feels the need to tell all and sundry that the entire marque is flawed.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - KJP 123

I would like to buy a Peugeot cabriolet which uses the same engine as some Minis and I believe that there is a carbonisation problem.

Oil from the crankcase breather is fed into the airflow and carbonises on the back of the inlet valves; it is not washed off by the fuel as it is gasoline direct injection.

I have seen this hydrogen cleaning advertised but can’t think how it would work and it does say hydrogen as opposed to others that say hydrogen peroxide. I can see how that might react and clean but am worried it might cause corrosion.

The company that does carbon cleaning through the fuel (no use here) also has a system that vapourises solvent and it is injected into the air intake.

Any thoughts?

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - skidpan

Redex has been proven to reduce emissions and increase BHP. Not their fault you had a crappy car.

Car was not crappy. It was a one owner ca with only 45,000 miles on it. A bit rusty on the sills and above the headlamps (like all Anglias) but in 12 months it never let me down and I sold it for exactly what I paid for it.

The simple fact was before Redex it used no oil, after it used oil. Redex was not the magic cure, it caused the car to burn oil.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - gordonbennet

I'd like to see a company such as Ricardo or other reputable research people test these things out.

Quite what hydrogen is supposed to do to carbon build up on inlet valves i haven't a clue, then we've got people pouring water into intakes or sea foam (whatever that is when its at home), what next is some bod going to offer spraying wheel cleaner or oven cleaner through your air intake to make your intake intercooler turbo and valves and DPF as clean and smooth as those hands that do dishes that can be soft as your face etc :-)

I have no idea if these things work, but would i let someone blast anything like this into my engine for a miracle clean up, not a chance matey.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - focussed

It sounds like what you need is some of this:-

kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&am...1

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - edlithgow

Redex has been proven to reduce emissions and increase BHP. Not their fault you had a crappy car.

Car was not crappy. It was a one owner ca with only 45,000 miles on it. A bit rusty on the sills and above the headlamps (like all Anglias) but in 12 months it never let me down and I sold it for exactly what I paid for it.

The simple fact was before Redex it used no oil, after it used oil. Redex was not the magic cure, it caused the car to burn oil.

The Redex was supposed to remove coke from the engine, and it apparently did, so it worked as advertised. Never been that convinced by the stuff but after your ringing endorsement I'll take it more seriously.

Unfortunately it appears you had a worn engine that was being sealed by the coke, so your oil consumption went up.

Thems the breaks. You seem to be blaming the product for your error of judgement..

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - edlithgow

Intake valve backs are tricky, because they aren't in the combustion chamber, so stuff that promotes combustion/breakdown of coke in the cylinder (water works very well there) isn't effective.

That leaves solvents, abrasive treatments, or taking the intake manifold off so you can access the valves directly.

Redex might be effective (see above), or maybe petrol. You might be able to rig something to introduce petrol into the airstream...maybe call it...um...a carburretor.

I've had good results using brake fluid as a carb cleaner and I'd think it MIGHT work on the backs of the valves, though I've never tried it.

Commercialy, I believe people get them abrasive blasted, using walnut shells as the abrasive, though I dunno the details of how its done, Perhaps they use walnut shell because its not very damaging if a bit of it gets into the cylinders..

Another approach is to fit a "catch can" into the crankcase breather circuit, to reduce the amount of gunge arriving on the back of the valves

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - skidpan

Commercialy, I believe people get them abrasive blasted, using walnut shells as the abrasive, though I dunno the details of how its done, Perhaps they use walnut shell because its not very damaging if a bit of it gets into the cylinders.

I doubt very much they blast the valves with the head on the engine. Any abrasive that got into the cylinder would be potentially destructive, that's why we have air filters.

But with some of these companies who sell these wonder products who knows.

In truth the last 2 road engines I have stripped, both Mondeo 2 litres have had very little build up on the inlet valves. One had done 63,000 miles, the other in excess of 100,000 based on MOT info 2 years before the dash went up in smoke.

Very different to my experiences years ago with carb engines.

Things have progressed massively. Not only materials and machining but EFI has made a huge difference as has the quality of pump fuel.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - edlithgow

I believe the main current issue with intake tract fouling is with recent Direct Injection (into the cylinder) designs. These give better mpg, but (as someone posted above) because the backs of the valves never see fuel (which has a cleaning effect), but they do see blowby from the crankcase breather, they get coked up.

I'd doubt the Mondeo was direct injection, though I don't know it wasn't.

Thinking about it further, IF, on a high speed run, the backs of the valves get hot enough for the carbon to become incandescent, water should work, since, as previously discussed, its reactive with carbon at high temperature. I'd think this would be a possibility.

I recently rigged my car to ingest water droplets at high rpm, though I had to add extra restriction to the air filter to get it to do it. This was to address a possible cylinder coking issue (it had started running-on after switch off), but it MIGHT have also had an effect on the back of the valves.

www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/s...4

www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topic...1

The diatomic hydrogen gas used commercially won't, AFAIK, react directly with carbon under these conditions . However, it will burn with a hot, soot free flame.

IF they are getting the hydrogen to ignite in the intake manifold close to the valve back, where, in a running engine, there is a large excess of oxygen, it might be quite effective in burning off carbon deposits, since, unlike any other fuels I can think of offhand, it hasn't got any carbon in it.

Edited by edlithgow on 21/09/2018 at 05:10

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - edlithgow

Excruciating (excruciatingly?) American video showing effect of two spray valve cleaners, CRC and Seafoam

youtu.be/48JSlXlvMC0

I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you don't try and watch the whole thing (I couldn't) so don't come whining to me if you do.

I suggest sound off and drag to the chase.

The comparative pictures are, IIRC, around 9.30. They both seem to do something..

Edited by edlithgow on 23/09/2018 at 07:30

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - craig-pd130

In truth the last 2 road engines I have stripped, both Mondeo 2 litres have had very little build up on the inlet valves. One had done 63,000 miles, the other in excess of 100,000 based on MOT info 2 years before the dash went up in smoke.

Very different to my experiences years ago with carb engines.

Things have progressed massively. Not only materials and machining but EFI has made a huge difference as has the quality of pump fuel.

Agreed - improvements in detergent additives in fuel will help to keep the inlet valves cleaner on non-DI engines. Probably the biggest contributor to carbon build up is worn / leaking valve guide oil seals, especially on exhaust valves where the temperatures on the back of the valve head are high enough to char the oil residue. As you say, improvements in materials & machining quality have improved things here too.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - John F

I am getting 45mpg at present and there are no obvious problems. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

I don't. It's a typical example of automotive quackery. Sow seeds of doubt about engine health, flog 'remedial treatment', reap profit. Indeed, there might be a risk of harming machinery that is nicely bedded in and working smoothly. There are many sad stories on this site of expensive problems occurring after unnecessary interference by incompetent mechanics. If it works, don't mend it!

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - Engineer Andy

I am getting 45mpg at present and there are no obvious problems. Does anyone think this is a good idea?

I don't. It's a typical example of automotive quackery. Sow seeds of doubt about engine health, flog 'remedial treatment', reap profit. Indeed, there might be a risk of harming machinery that is nicely bedded in and working smoothly. There are many sad stories on this site of expensive problems occurring after unnecessary interference by incompetent mechanics. If it works, don't mend it!

I hardly think that 45mpg from a 1.9D is something t write home about: I get 41mpg from my 1.6 N/A petrol (at 12yo) Mazda3, roughly the same size car. I would've expected over 50 from a diesel. Many aftermarket treatments like fuel injector cleaner, EGR and MAF sensor cleaner have been shown to work well to significantly improve mpg and drivability on older modern cars (as opposed to actually old cars) that are either un predominantly in an urban environment and/or for short trips from cold, or who don't get maintained that well.

The former can be far cheaper than having to use branded super grade fuels, which will do a similar job, but take longer and cost more. I can buy a 4-shot Redex bottle for the price difference between a tank-full of Shell Superunleaded and 95Ron (similar for diesel). Using the higher grade fuels is better over the long term, because it keeps the engine in better health, rather than just helping it recover, but most people can't afford it.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - gordonbennet
There are many sad stories on this site of expensive problems occurring after unnecessary interference by incompetent mechanics. If it works, don't mend it!

Once again JohnF i am in agreement with you (even if we agree to differ on actual servicing), it aint broke don't fix it.

I'm none too sure what these weird and wonderful concoctions might do to the oil itself, fragile sensors in the intake system, and any aftertreatment or catalysts in the exhaust system, let alone what they might do if the muck seeps down into the piston rings.

The stuff might be entirely harmless, but it might not.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - skidpan

I don't know how much this wonder treatment costs but for the cost of a couple of gaskets you could whip off the inlet manifold and look at the back off the valves. If they are bad whip off the head, take out the valves and clean them up, not difficult but a few extra gaskets required.

As Haynes always say, reassembly is the reverse of dissassembly.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - sandy56

Diesel decarbonising is just sales talk.

Treat you car to a few tanks of Shell / BP super diesel and move on.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - Big John

Diesel decarbonising is just sales talk.

Treat you car to a few tanks of Shell / BP super diesel and move on.

Am I missing something - diesels also have direct injection so un-burnt fuel doesn't wash past inlet valves .

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - edlithgow

Diesel decarbonising is just sales talk.

Treat you car to a few tanks of Shell / BP super diesel and move on.

Am I missing something - diesels also have direct injection so un-burnt fuel doesn't wash past inlet valves .

Yeh, I've wondered about that myself, since the problem only seems to get discussed in relation to petrol direct injection engines, which are relatively recent.

Part of the reason MIGHT be an association with Low Speed Pre-Ignition, which isn't a feature of diesels.

Another possibility is the nature of the fuel (and therefore the blowby) which is obviously different in a petrol engine and may be more likely to cause coking.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - edlithgow

Well, hydrogen isn't really a concoction. Its the simplest and commonest element in the universe, and since its a gas it isn't going to contaminate anything.

The other stuff, I dunno, Some caution would seem to be warranted, but I'd guess they are not being used in large quantities or all that often.

Edited by edlithgow on 19/10/2018 at 13:36

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - 3uga

Don't do it. It's expencive and doesen't prove to do anything.

Vauxhall Astra Estate - Diesel decarbonising - 3uga

Don't do it. It's expencive and doesen't prove to do anything.