Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped.....

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 17:09
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - John F

...saving motorists millions on unnecessary repairs and extortionate test fees.

www.adamsmith.org/research/drivers-of-safety-the-o...g

Yippee! This will go down like a lead balloon with some of the regulars here who delight in recommending mid twentieth century practices for twenty first century cars.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 17:23
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - TheGentlemanThug

This quote in particular stuck with me:

"As vehicle technology increases, annual safety inspections are rendered more and more useless."

What that should actually read is:

"As vehicle technology increases, annual safety inspections are rendered more and more necessary as there's a greater scope of things that can go wrong".

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 17:25
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - nick62

I'd wager the majority of drivers wouldn't know their tyres are legal to save their lives? Some would drive their cars until they died if it was not for "modern" service indicators.

The number of nearly new cars I notice with illegal tyres is scary.

Nothing wrong with the MOT in my eyes.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 17:31
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Andrew-T

I'd wager the majority of drivers wouldn't know their tyres are legal to save their lives? Some would drive their cars until they died if it was not for "modern" service indicators..

That's a bit chicken and egg. When a car has those 'helpful' devices, many people will wait for the car to tell them what to do. Before that we had to think a bit more. It's not all down to increasing carelessness among motorists - but to be fair, cars are more reliable than they were, so maybe we just play to the probabilities?

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 17:49
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - concrete

It seems to me that the MOT is optional around here. I guarantee that by the time is comes to using headlights regularly every other car has misaligned beams. I thought this was part of the MOT. Doesn't seem to catch on around here. The thread is interesting though. I am in two minds about the MOT. Modern cars are laden with electronic gadgety of all descriptions.How can an MOT pick up faults with that. They can't of course. But if a light is showing because of a faulty sensor the car fails. An expensive fix usually for a car that is not worth the outlay. The other argument is; it keeps the cars that are on the road safer. Normally if a car is serviced annually then the tyres etc are reported on the service sheet along with other 'advisories'. A lot of these are designed to scare the average punter into repairs that may not really be esential. The old one is the oil misting around the shock absorbers. Every car I have ever MOT'd has had that mentioned as an advisory, with the car soldiering one for many years without any ill effects. You pays your money, use your common sense and make your choice. On the whole I think a basic MOT is a good thing.

Cheers Concrete

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 17:53
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - daveyjp
Adam Smith Institute has always been full of blockheads.
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Wed 25 Jul 2018 18:48
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Bromptonaut
Adam Smith Institute has always been full of blockheads.

The full report is here:

tinyurl.com/y83dbfgh" target="_blank">https://tinyurl.com/y83dbfgh (link to pdf on ASI website)

The whole thig is a mish mash of unsubstantiated assertions. Not worthy of an A Level essay never mind a policy paper.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 25/07/2018 at 18:49

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 18:56
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Miniman777
Adam Smith Institute has always been full of blockheads.

Spot on. I tend to take anything they say with a pinch of salt. Some of their 'experts' or 'consultants' are not with the real world.

Furrthermore as someone working in the media, I would not even waste my time reporting it, because it is so flawed.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 19:23
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - sammy1

It cannot make sense to scrap the MOT purely on vehicle safety grounds. Some cars when out of warranty never see a garage again so in the interest of everyone else it makes sense to check tyres brakes and steering etc annually.Also the government checks on emmissions are to be welcomed. The computerised check on the DVLA website is also a good check for most potential buyers, you can no longer buy a MOT certificate in the pub! What is illogical is why the very older cars are somehow exempt. I would think that the very old cars would possibly be less road worthy, there are not many around but it only takes ont faulty car to cause a serious accident. However some of the measures in the latest MOT are a bit over the top and I feel the average guy on a budget has good reason to be fearful of mal practice in some garages.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 19:43
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - John F
Adam Smith Institute has always been full of blockheads.

That's not only insulting but also untrue. Visit their website and see who they are.

Spot on. I tend to take anything they say with a pinch of salt. Some of their 'experts' or 'consultants' are not with the real world.

What do you mean by this? Schizoid?

Furrthermore as someone working in the media, I would not even waste my time reporting it, because it is so flawed.

Well, you probably won't last long as a reporter! In what way is it flawed? Although it's USA based, Hoagland's historical commentary and his synthetic control method of analysis seems to be a genuine impartial attempt to answer the question - do regular inspections have a significant effect on accident and mortality rates, or are they just a waste of money which could be better spent elsewhere?

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 20:13
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - daveyjp
Two words which sum up the brains in ASI.

Poll Tax.
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Wed 25 Jul 2018 19:00
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - KJP 123

As Concrete says, “On the whole I think a basic MOT is a good thing.”

The problem is that it has been extended and cars will fail with no increase in safety. Lights indicating a brake fault are often nothing more than a bad connection especially with the dirt and water in that area.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 19:08
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Bolt

Before that we had to think a bit more

I dont think much has changed, where those that were interested in cars took more care of their cars and noticed problems coming, because of those that don`t is probably the reason for sensors and computers making life easier for some.

bearing in mind electronics in cars should be almost perfect and not fail to the extent that some do, maybe the reasoning behind the idea,IMO a daft idea but I can see why they may think about it

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 19:02
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - RobJP

...saving motorists millions on unnecessary repairs and extortionate test fees.

www.adamsmith.org/research/drivers-of-safety-the-o...g

Yippee! This will go down like a lead balloon with some of the regulars here who delight in recommending mid twentieth century practices for twenty first century cars.

Considering that one in 6 cars fail their FIRST MOT test, at three years old, scrapping the test requirement would be an act of gross stupidity.

If keeping it is 'recommending mid-twentieth century practices', then count me in, sounds good to me.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 19:50
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - John F

Considering that one in 6 cars fail their FIRST MOT test, at three years old, scrapping the test requirement would be an act of gross stupidity.

Even when some of those failures were due to being out of screenwash?

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 20:10
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - RobJP

Considering that one in 6 cars fail their FIRST MOT test, at three years old, scrapping the test requirement would be an act of gross stupidity.

Even when some of those failures were due to being out of screenwash?

Oh, I'm sure 'some' of those failures are due to a lack of screenwash.

But, quoting a particular website :

<website XXX> analysed millions of MoT records from the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) and found that one in six cars were refused their first MoT, with most failing due to unsafe brakes, lights and tyres.

Hell, you're willing to believe the Adam Smith Institute ... maybe you should do some research as well, there's a wonderful motoring website which I took that article from.

Can you guess what it's called ?

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 20:14
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Engineer Andy

It's worth keeping as to me it's a backstop for those idiots who scrimp on servicing, especially those who buy older 'premium' (read complex with more to go wrong an which the owner may avoid on cost grounds) cars for buttons and spend little on maintenance afterwards. How many dangerously unsafe cars with bald tyres, bad brakes, severe structural or suspension damage would still be on the roads if the MOT test was scrapped?

It shouldn't be used as a repair guide, but it's better than nothing at all IMHO.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 20:59
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Leif
It’s obvious that some of the posters here have not read the article. For example, the author recognises that emissions testing is worthwhile and should be continued. He does argue persuasively that in America, or at least New Jersey, MOT equivalent testing was of no statistical benefit. His argument is that from a safety perspective, it has little or no effect. It sounds counter intuitive, but then again reality is sometimes like that.

This might be because most normal people have their cars serviced, and tyres checked. Many people drive without insurance and an MOT, and hence are not covered by MOT tests.

I recently looked at MOT test results for one car I owned for ten years. It failed repeatedly year after year. Each year there were lots of advisories that disappeared of their own accord, only for new ones to appear the following year. Self healing car faults? Marvellous. Alternatively a garage trying it on to get custom? Or perhaps the MOT testers were not very good at their jobs, or there was no incentive given the low fee to do it properly.

I recall reading some while back that an organisation prepared some cars with known faults which were sent to garages to check. Few if any picked up all faults, many missed several, and many invented spurious ones. Perhaps that is the real reason MOT testing might be relatively ineffective.

I’ve had some mechanical failures over the years, one or two very serious ones such as wipers failing in torrential rain. The MOT would have picked up none of them.
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Wed 25 Jul 2018 22:07
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - barney100

The MOT is needed to hopefully keep cars roadworthy. Of course the law abiding citizens would do that anyway but there are certain amongst us who don't bother with MOTs and servicing. Police numbers are down by large amounts so the chances of being caught are diminished, quite worrying.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 22:26
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Leif

The MOT is needed to hopefully keep cars roadworthy. Of course the law abiding citizens would do that anyway but there are certain amongst us who don't bother with MOTs and servicing. Police numbers are down by large amounts so the chances of being caught are diminished, quite worrying.

The real issue is whether or not the MOT is effective at reducing accidents. The author claims that it isn’t and presents some evidence in support of that argument. He argues that the money spent on the MOT would be better spent on other road safety measures. I don’t know if he is right, but as someone trained in science, I prefer argument based on evidence rather than what I think is the case. However, in this country a lot of government policy is controlled by the popular press. I can see the headlines if the MOT were removed, or substantially changed: “Child, kittens, and bunny rabbits burned alive in death trap car. Carnage on our roads. Minister urged to resign.”.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 22:48
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Bromptonaut

The author claims that it isn’t and presents some evidence in support of that argument.

My issue with it is that there is very little evidence. It's actually quite ironic; criticizes ROSPA and others for unevidenced assertions in support of MoT and then codemns it with a load of unevidenced assertions.

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Wed 25 Jul 2018 23:39
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - focussed

The figures for killed and seriously injured caused by vehicle technical faults in the UK is very low, less than 5% - by far the biggest causes are failure to look, failure to judge the speed or course of another vehicle, inattention, distraction, drink, speeding etc.

Perhaps we should be inspecting drivers more and cars less?

Anybody passed an online theory test recently, try it, just for fun.

theorypass.co.uk/car-theory-test/

Everybody on here should get 50/50 - but how many average driviers on the UK roads would even pass with 43 out of 50 correct?

Edited by focussed on 26/07/2018 at 00:02

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 00:33
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Bromptonaut

The figures for killed and seriously injured caused by vehicle technical faults in the UK is very low, less than 5%

Which perhaps suggests that the MOT is working?

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 05:56
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - madf

From the report:

"• Separate the MOT into two distinct tests, one comprised of the typical vehicle safety inspection and another testing only carbon emissions. Emissions testing is valuable independent of safety inspections."

SO NOx and other emissions can flourish,DPFs remoived with impunity and city air made more unbreathable?

BS>

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 07:24
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - RobJP

The figures for killed and seriously injured caused by vehicle technical faults in the UK is very low, less than 5%

Which perhaps suggests that the MOT is working?

Agreed.

We have an annual vehicle inspection regime. We also have very few people KSI by mechanical failure in vehicle accidents, most being caused by human error.

Ergo, the current inspection and testing systems work, as failures of that sort lead to comparatively few KSI.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 08:49
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - focussed

The figures for killed and seriously injured caused by vehicle technical faults in the UK is very low, less than 5%

Which perhaps suggests that the MOT is working?

The vehicle testing regime in France starts at four years from first registration and is then every two years.

Similarly to the UK, technical faults causing killed and seriously injured accidents are low, 3% as I recall.

So, with a regime that starts testing a year later and then with a two year gap between tests, the results are roughly the same.

There is no technical inspection of powered two wheelers (motorcycles, scooters etc) in France yet the level of technical faults leading to accidents is very low about 2%.

The UK MOT on an annual basis would seem to be a bit OTT, bearing in mind that cars in France tend to cover higher annual mileages than in the UK.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 14:30
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Leif

The figures for killed and seriously injured caused by vehicle technical faults in the UK is very low, less than 5%

Which perhaps suggests that the MOT is working?

The vehicle testing regime in France starts at four years from first registration and is then every two years.

Similarly to the UK, technical faults causing killed and seriously injured accidents are low, 3% as I recall.

So, with a regime that starts testing a year later and then with a two year gap between tests, the results are roughly the same.

There is no technical inspection of powered two wheelers (motorcycles, scooters etc) in France yet the level of technical faults leading to accidents is very low about 2%.

The UK MOT on an annual basis would seem to be a bit OTT, bearing in mind that cars in France tend to cover higher annual mileages than in the UK.

And in many US states they do not have compulsory vehicle inspections with no evidence of an increase in associated accidents which perhaps suggests the MOT is not working.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 11:02
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - expat

We don't have annual road worthiness tests in West Australia and we have not had huge numbers of crashes caused by unroadworthy vehicles. The police can stop a vehicle and issue a notice compelling the owner to take it for a road worthiness inspection. These are famously rigourous. As said elsewhere the main roadworthiness problem is the nut behind the wheel and nobody is advocating testing them every year. I would expect a high failure rate if they did.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 14:16
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Engineer Andy

We don't have annual road worthiness tests in West Australia and we have not had huge numbers of crashes caused by unroadworthy vehicles. The police can stop a vehicle and issue a notice compelling the owner to take it for a road worthiness inspection. These are famously rigourous. As said elsewhere the main roadworthiness problem is the nut behind the wheel and nobody is advocating testing them every year. I would expect a high failure rate if they did.

The problem in the Uk is that we don't have enough traffic police - seemingly many officers have been transferred to police the interweb, stopping 'really dangerous' people (mainly men) who 'disagree' with establishment and feminist opinions/groupthink.

I'd still rather have more traffic police AND keep the MOT.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 14:32
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Leif

We don't have annual road worthiness tests in West Australia and we have not had huge numbers of crashes caused by unroadworthy vehicles. The police can stop a vehicle and issue a notice compelling the owner to take it for a road worthiness inspection. These are famously rigourous. As said elsewhere the main roadworthiness problem is the nut behind the wheel and nobody is advocating testing them every year. I would expect a high failure rate if they did.

The problem in the Uk is that we don't have enough traffic police - seemingly many officers have been transferred to police the interweb, stopping 'really dangerous' people (mainly men) who 'disagree' with establishment and feminist opinions/groupthink.

I'd still rather have more traffic police AND keep the MOT.

That sounds like a HJ rant. Did you copy it from his motoring column? :)

Off topic, but cyber crime is a serious threat, witness the chaos caused by the Wanna Cry virus and the NHS.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 13:15
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Avant

I seem to remember that when the MoT test was first introduced (about 1960 I think), the main things it tested were steering, tyres, lights and brakes. There are other things tested now, but those four are still vital, and all cars have them. And they're all still capable of being defective to the point of being dangerous.

The test isn't perfect, and doesn't claim to cover everything, but what it does cover is a lot better than nothing. I wouldn't dismiss the Adam Smith Institute out of hand, but I'd rather trust the opinion of an engineer than an economist on this subject.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 13:43
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - nick62

I'd rather trust the opinion of an engineer than an economist on this subject.

Make that EVERY subject.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 14:34
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Alan

A former neighbour drove for six months which included the winter with only one headlight and only replaced it for the MOT. What about other things less obvious than a headlight.

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Thu 26 Jul 2018 19:12
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - skidpan

saving motorists millions on unnecessary repairs and extortionate test fees.

But it does not cost me millions personally every year, it costs me £40. For that I get a professional mechanic check the car over for safety issues.

Although I feel confident that the car is well maintained by myself its reassuring to have a 3rd party check it.

Many cars on the road do not get well maintained, in truth many do not get maintained at all and its only the MOT in most cases that either gets them fixed or taken off the road.

It will be a very sad day if stupid economists got the green light to run the DVSA (or whatever they call themselves today).

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Sun 29 Jul 2018 12:05
Modern cars - Adam Smith Institute suggest MoT be scrapped..... - Bilboman

I'd be interested to see some data, if any is available, regarding the effectiveness of the French "MoT" (contrôle technique), since its introduction in 1992. Before then, a driver was responsible for the car's roadworthiness until the moment of selling it on, which might have been 40 or 50 years in some extremely remote places(!)
And whatever happened to so-called European "harmonisation", with cars in 28 countries being subject to different testing regimes and deteriorating into decrepit dustbins at alarmingly varying rates, purely dependent on the country of registration? It reminds me of the first episode of "Auf Wiedersehen, Pet", when Oz and company limped and lurched into Germany on their way to their new jobs in an eye-wateringly decrepit old Ford Zephyr.

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