PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop?

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 18:32
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
The UK market seems wholly distorted by the PCP machine.

It seems to have hugely favoured the German makes to sell access to £40k+ cars to people who barely look able to afford much more than an ordinary second hand car. I’m continuously amazed by who I see sitting in or getting out of shiny BMWs, Evoques and Mercedes Benzes in the average, not even up market, supermarket car park, their youth in particular and relative ordinariness is obvious.

Will the whole pcp thing end? I don’t understand what’s propping it up. It looks like smoke and mirrors especially in a world of stagnated wages, rising energy and food costs.

Can backroomers see a future when the prestige Germans aren’t everywhere and where their customers start to resemble their older customers of times gone by who were 20 years older and more obviously comfortably off professional types rather than anyone who can sign an agreement.

What will the ex PCPers do? Go back to buying. 3-5 year old mainstream makes for cash or with a bit of HP?
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Thu 15 Mar 2018 19:02
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Terry W

Thanks to the quality education we provide in this countrty, most sub-30 year olds are apparently incapable of multiplying by 12 and don't realise the full cost of what they are doing.

This is compounded by a perceived inability ever to buy a house so saving for a deposit is rather futile.

But as interest rates rise repayments on new policies will become increasingly unaffordable. Brexit (in my view) will increase unemployment and reduce growth, and the current supply of low mileage 1-2 year old cars can be had at prices significantly below new,

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 19:50
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - CK91437

Some people want things themselves but want to deny others from enjoying those same things.

A bit like the people who live in the countryside and are always moaning about how they haven't got this service or that service service because of their rural location. And yet the same people don't want more houses on green belt so that others can enjoy the countryside as well.

If PCP allows people to enjoy new cars (even for a short while), then why not. Even thou they may not be from the professional classes.

It's innovative progress. Their money, their choice.

But I agree, it is expensive.

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 20:05
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - RT

Some people want things themselves but want to deny others from enjoying those same things.

A bit like the people who live in the countryside and are always moaning about how they haven't got this service or that service service because of their rural location. And yet the same people don't want more houses on green belt so that others can enjoy the countryside as well.

If PCP allows people to enjoy new cars (even for a short while), then why not. Even thou they may not be from the professional classes.

It's innovative progress. Their money, their choice.

But I agree, it is expensive.

Sounds twisted - the OP seemed to be questioning the value of PCPs, not trying to stop people using them while having one themselves.

Existing PCPs for diesel models will cause pain - the real trade value of the cars at end of term will be less, much less in some cases, than Guaranteed Future Value dso the finance company will take a hit, sunbsequently recovered in higher charges for new agreements - the "owner" may also suffer financially if they assumed an equity build-up as older PCPs provided.

At the end of the day, the finance industry makes profits by lending money to buyers -the deal may/will alter in future but they'll still carry on lending money and making profits.

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 20:09
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - RT
Can backroomers see a future when the prestige Germans aren’t everywhere and where their customers start to resemble their older customers of times gone by who were 20 years older and more obviously comfortably off professional types rather than anyone who can sign an agreement.

The German brands finance deals are designed to keep residual values up - they have enough profit in the car to fund the costs of this support. The reality is that the German brands are deliberately expanding down-market where they have to appeal to a different class of buyers to succeed.

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 21:49
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
But given the sheer volume of German cars sold now will their residuals hold up? Are there so many people wanting a second hand bmw or Merc when everyone and their dog is able to buy new on pcp?
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Thu 15 Mar 2018 20:28
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Manatee

It's people spending money before they've earned it, one stage beyond spending everything and saving nothing.

Never mind buying second hand cars, I wonder if the next generation will end up keeping them all when they have sod-all to retire on.

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 21:01
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - RT

It's people spending money before they've earned it, one stage beyond spending everything and saving nothing.

Never mind buying second hand cars, I wonder if the next generation will end up keeping them all when they have sod-all to retire on.

Spending money before they've earned it isn't a new principle - it's been going on for 60+ years to my knowledge and is well established in the policies of governments of all colours.

I'm old-school so have minimised the use of interest-payable loans throughout my adult life - paid the mortgage off after 12 years, recently used a PCP to gain £5,000 manufacturres' deposit contribution as well as online discount deal and paid it off within the month.

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 22:00
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Manatee

Spending money before they've earned it isn't a new principle - it's been going on for 60+ years to my knowledge and is well established in the policies of governments of all colours.

The principle is old, the scale is much bigger as can be seen by the amount of private debt.

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 22:14
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - RT

Cheap credit is the problem - bring back the 15% mortgage rate we had in the '70s

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 21:00
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - NAthan smith
The pcp boom is down to simple facts. People can get into a £20k plus car for £240 a month with a small (£1500) deposit with some hard haggling. I have found there are some huge variations in quotes on like for like cars. This monthly budget would only get you a loan of around £14k which limits your choice. So with some haggling a great deal on a nice car can be done!

Edited by NAthan smith on 15/03/2018 at 21:04

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Thu 15 Mar 2018 21:50
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Bianconeri
The essence for most folks is that they are SEEN in what is perceived as a ‘nice’ or ‘upmarket’ car for ‘only £x a month’. At the end of the term the RENTED car goes back and the way of minimising £x was to inflate the GFV figure so there’s precious little equity in the car, almost certainly less than the original deposit.

Do they borrow to buy the ‘old’ car or repeat the rental? In steps the manufacturer with discounts in the form of deposits for the next rental cycle so the factories stay busy.

The £x a month HP deal gets you less car and so a lower ‘look at me’ factor but at least you own it at the end.

Cash terrifies car dealers, it removes all those nasty holds that encourage repeat business and means they have to earn customer loyalty the hard way.
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Thu 15 Mar 2018 22:15
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
To me the PCP bandwagon had cheapened the allure of BMWs and Mercedes in particular and Audi to some extent and I worry has permanently hobbled the mainstream makers from even producing regular models that someone might want to buy. Instead it’s Stuttgart, Ingolstadt and Munich takes all.

In the past it was a considered and pricey decision to buy German and there were other options that delivered alternatives often at a cheaper price point eg Saab, Volvo and Peugeot especially for saloons and even some genuine Italian competition in the 70s. Now it feels like choice is permanently reduced and it’s German or nothing much (Volvo and landrover/Jaguar being the only thriving exception).

In other areas buying top end German is still expensive eg Gaggenau or Miele appliances and there is still thriving competition below that. Until someone does PCP for a Miele dishwasher and everone will have one.

Edited by innerlondon on 15/03/2018 at 22:16

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 00:37
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Bilboman

People spending money they haven't got to buy things they don't need in order to impress people they don't like (or even know) - it really is as simple as that. But with interest rates pretty close to zero, it's also inevitable.
Interest-only mortgages are similar in that the "owner" of the item in question is effectively paying rent to the finance company for the privilege of driving/living in an asset s/he does not yet really own. The massive difference is that a car is always a depreciating asset.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 06:34
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - gordonbennet

Why should it stop, enough consumers are happy to pay large percentages of their take home salaries for the pleasure they must obviously get from having the latest car in their 'ownership' for a period of time.

No it doesn't suit everyone, but then neither would the car ownerships of the good lady and myself, who prefer a certain type of out of production Japanese 4x4, both completely different one a large traditional vehicle the other a flying ice cream van, both of which hold strong used values, to many here the cost of buying either of our used cars would appear a total waste of money.

We personally wouldn't give you a thankyou for any new car currently on sale in the UK, and nor would almost all who buy current new cars consider for one moment ether of the cars we like/own.

Having what you like rather than what might be considered sensible/logical has never been a particularly cheap option, and that applies in many aspects of our lives, it's part of what makes us human, a computer would probably never choose the same options as us in almost all walks of life,. from our chosen partners and friends to the house we live in to the job we do or to the car we drive right through to what we think.

Long may we have the choices, until some apparatchik takes them away.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 07:18
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - veloceman
Totally agree Mr Bennett.
I enjoy the benefits of a PCP.
The repayments are nearly half of those of HP
I change every 2-3 years.
Never had to change brake pads, exhausts, cambelts, generslly pay around £150 it’s first and only service and maybe a couple of tyres.
I get 3 yrs warranty, 3 years brake down cover included also.
No hassle, totally reliable!
I certainly don’t spend a large percentage of my salary on it.
I get I’m fortunate to get a generous car allowance which I spend approx a third of and pocket the rest.
It’s not flashy, not show off.
What car is it? Seat Leon FR. Great fun.

That’s what life is all about - Enjoying/ having fun.

So Mr innerlondon, I say ‘keep your eyes on your own plate ‘
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Fri 16 Mar 2018 08:29
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Manatee

Why should it stop, enough consumers are happy to pay large percentages of their take home salaries for the pleasure they must obviously get from having the latest car in their 'ownership' for a period of time.

But they aren't spending their own money, they are borrowing it. Yes they have to pay it back, but when (not if) the 'deleveraging' occurs there will be another recession. And there will be millions falling on the state to support them when they cease to be economically active? Some will have adequate retirement provision, many won't.

Yes we had HP in the 70s, but it was regulated - HP was capped at 3 years for a car IIRC and there were even deposit and repayment term limits on loans for electrical goods. Mortgage lending was of course much tighter which restricted house price growth.

The masses do not benefit from slack lending - they just end up paying more for their houses. Whichever way you look at it, it is stupid to borrow money just for spending, and for the economy it is unsustainable - in the short term, of course, it facilitates growth but it is irresponsible of government to perpetuate it - it will just make the eventual consequences worse.

I'm not sure how it even works any more as a short term economic stimulus - it's barely keeping us afloat - as far as cars are concerned, it seems mainly to suck in imports.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 07:28
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - colinh

No problems - as long as the banks don't expect to be bailed out again when this all goes wrong with "Crisis 2.0"

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 08:05
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
Is PCP a purely British product or is it available and used as much on the continent? We get told we are the only ones so addicted to credit and in fact the Germans have set up banks that just to funnel Bavarian household savings into profligate British car loans/PCP. Do the Germans pay cash for cars just like we used to?

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 09:25
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Mike H

They are certainly common here in Austria. We have a Honda CR-V, for which we paid a fairly large deposit, but with relatively low monthly payments, on a PCP-like deal, although they call it leasing. We have a non-guaranteed residual value, with unlimited mileage over 4 years. The interest rate on the repayment was fixed at a lowish rate (c.3%) when we took it out in 2015. It suited us at the time, as we hadn't planned to change cars, and in reality our overall monthly costs are less than our 14 year old Saab was costing.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 09:47
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - skidpan

Long live the PCP with deposit contribution. When we get the Fabia in May/June it will be the 3rd we have had and the contributions have totalled over £7000 including free service deals etc. One we paid off immediately, one early and the Fabia will almost certainly get paid off early, never been asked for the contribution back.

Even if we let the Fabia PCP run to the end we would "only" pay £1800 interest. Considering that the contribution is £2000 you would be mad to ignore it.

Its been a win-win every time for us.

When we bought the Superb there was a PCP with £2000 contribution but smaller discount or a 0% finance with no contribution but the full discount. Pay off after a year and they would have worked out about the same but leave it longer and the 0% saved money. Went for the 0%.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 13:15
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - expat
Is PCP a purely British product or is it available and used as much on the continent?

Never heard of it here in Australia and I wouldn't use it even if I could get it. There are some companies which offer employees salary sacrifice to buy a car. It is some sort of accounting fiddle which lets your employer pay lease payments on your car and takes it off your salary so that the payments are made with tax free money. Because the lease is tied to your employer you have to pay it off in one hit if you get laid off or if you want to change your job.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 14:03
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - bazza

Very interesting points raised. I prefer to buy a lightly used car as for me it's hugely better value but I'm lucky to afford cash every time. I couldn't bear the depreciation on brand new. But I'm not drawn to flashiness, cars are just transport to me, so I never have to pay out huge amounts. I can see that the model works if paid off quickly to get the discount and may work so long as the choice and budget stay logical. Therein lies the problem and its easy for it to become a hugely excessive way to transport oneself about! There's a girl over the road who's just badly damaged a PCP loaner. Can't afford the insurance increase so paying privately to fix, can't afford to keep the monthly payments either so looking at handing back, all a real mess. A stupid situation. Someone mentioned financial education..... Interestingabout the downgrading or brand dilution of the prestige makes, most obvious with Merc I think and the very average A class with the massive badge. Does anyone really think it's any better than a VAG or similar? Where do prestige makes go when they're no longer exclusive?

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 15:03
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
Well it’s no longer exclusive if every 21 year old living on a South London estate can get one. I do wonder if Mercedes in Stuttgart have any idea who their UK franchisees sell to these days. You go to a motor show and see very expensively crafted stands and brochures/videos and the reality is somewhat different. How do they sell the more expensive versions in their showrooms to the better off while sheparding Others to the A Class PCP form?

What would alway be interesting if interest rates went up and the euro broke up and then suddenly the Germans would have to raise their prices by 50% to cope with a surging Dmark.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 15:30
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Avant

Having read through this thread, I'm not entirely sure what the point of it is. Fortunately we live in a 'free country' where we can make these choices ourselves. A PCP is simply a method of financing a car which appeals to some and not to others. Fine.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 19:49
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - SteveLee

I think the manufacturers artificially boosting new car sales by appealing to regplate snobs who want to drive cars they can't actually afford will ultimately back-fire - unless the manufacturers are willing to start crushing returned cars, This is eventually going to end in a glut of 3-5 year old used cars with full service history becasue people who would normally buy used cars are "buying" new cars along with the "normal" new car buyers.

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 21:35
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - veloceman
I used to enjoy this forum but now it is frequented by bitter and twisted folk who resent others having what they don’t.
It is not being snobby buying a new car.
My car is on a pcp for the reasons explained above and is well with in my means which is actually none of any one business.

The purpose of a forum is to give advice and generally chat about a common interest.
By all means give advise on financial pros and cons of PCP v HP etc, but please stop insulting folk you know nothing about.
It’s their money not yours.

If you have nothing constructive to say - Butt out!
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Fri 16 Mar 2018 22:17
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - SLO76
I remember when the finance companies first started offering PCP’s in the 90’s and my thoughts at the time were that it would complicate things and increase overall costs for punters.

Instead of a 3yr PCP with a final balloon at the end a typical 5yr finance agreement (normally at a lower APR) or much cheaper bank loan would offer the same for less money. After 3yrs sell it, trade it in or carry on paying it off. I’m amazed to this day at so many taking them on especially with used cars where the interest rates are almost always nowhere near competitive.

But I won’t criticise anyone who works for spending the money they earn on whatever they want. I know one fella who lives in a ex council flat in a rough part of town who has a new Jag F-Type sitting in the street outside. I’ll point out a way to save money if I spot it though as paying interest benefits no one other than the bankers. Too many look at a monthly figure without calculating the full term cost.


Edited by SLO76 on 16/03/2018 at 22:18

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Fri 16 Mar 2018 23:38
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
But you must admit it has radically changed how cars are sold and bought. It effectively has destroyed the market for mainstream large cars even though ironically it was Ford who introduced the concept I believe.

The point of the thread was to talk about how it has changed the market and in particular the rise of the prestige gemena makes and their increasing use of PCP as a means to dominate and sell to a wider range of customers than they ever did before.
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Sat 17 Mar 2018 00:05
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Avant

"....the rise of the prestige German makes and their increasing use of PCP as a means to dominate and sell to a wider range of customers than they ever did before."

If you accept (which possibly you may not) the capitalist system as being, with all its faults, the only one that works, then that is what these companies are there for - to make money.

Clever marketing and in some (not all) cases better perceived quality have led to these makes holding their value better than 'mainstream large cars' and therefore making better PCP deals possible.

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Sat 17 Mar 2018 08:45
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - veloceman
PCP certainly pays for this.
Fiat 124 Spider. £4,500 manufacturer contribution and 0%.
£199 per month.
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Sat 17 Mar 2018 12:59
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Bianconeri
PCP certainly pays for this. Fiat 124 Spider. £4,500 manufacturer contribution and 0%. £199 per month.

Or, as a friend who sells FIATs and a few other marques for a living told me earlier in the week, at least £6000 off’ if you buy a stock car. Rather suggests FIAT’s pricing for the 124 is wrong or that punters prefer the MX5. There are clearly a lot of cars in the system at the moment. Shame really because it looks nice.

Reality - if something is being promoted with significant PCP or finance contributions there will be big discounts to be had too. You just have to get past the BS from salespeople (and some brokers) who will claim the opposite to protect their commission.

This whole thing is obviously down to your own circumstances and attitudes. I’ve never done debt, other than for mortgages, and you’ll never shake me from that. Similarly, I own my cellphone. The car allowance thing is understandable, folks trade payng tax on the BIK for a ‘perk’ car for a taxable allowance ( though many seem to forget the tax aspect when considering what the allowance will fund). If they choose to use PCP then it’s a personal choice that puts then close to where they were with a company car - that too went back at the end of the agreement or if you left the job. With the allowance-funded PCP of course the liability for the contract is yours.

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Sat 17 Mar 2018 09:09
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - smallcar
Well it is quite a change from 20-30 years ago when the Germans seemed happy with much more modest sales and a more rarified position in the market - they knew they were expensive and knew only a small number of customers could stomach their pricing and their long and expensive options lists. Clearly they have gone for volume now in a big way and are raking it in now. As some have pointed out though the relative rarity before was part of their brand position - now when everyone seems to drive one it’s no longer very distinctive.
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Sat 17 Mar 2018 09:15
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - madf

German makers - like all car makers - standardise parts between cars. With capital investments in a new engine/body being hundreds or thousands of $millions, it makes economic sense to increase sales.. and spread capital costs over as many cars as possible...

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Sat 17 Mar 2018 09:52
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - oldroverboy.

In dfence of the German makers... ME saying this..

Image and snobbery? Land Rover/JLR..

PCP usage...... Land Rover/JLR

Perceived quality... Land Rover JLR

I remember in the early 90's when i was working in a Jaguar dealership, I met a test driver in a layby somewhere near gaydon and he was driving a "mule". we had a conversation about the digital speedo assemblies, leaking power steering bottles... (I forget how many different mods there were for that) and the ventilation fan problems in the xj40, which he was driving. He knew all about them, but was surprised to hear it from me...

1990 Range rover power steering hoses, forget how many mods too..

And JLR's attitude, try to ignore it. I have a friend who works for a company who work with them and it is only because he has a bit of "access" that his problems get sorted.

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Sat 17 Mar 2018 10:30
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - FoxyJukebox

PCP-bah humbug!-I can't tolerate the massive depreciation hit of a new car so have always gone for new or nearly new and bought with cash. Key to me is only buying from dealership stock from that dealer's actual location and whilst model is important-I'm flexible about spec/colour/extra toys etc . You can see what you're getting, dealer can "shift" his stock(stock sold means £££ to a dealer?) and if I am lucky--I might get a nice deal. Plus of course-if the test drive is not to my liking, I can change me mind THEN and THERE.

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Sat 17 Mar 2018 13:17
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - veloceman
Same here.
Got a 4minth old Facelift Leon with 6k off list price and two free services on a PCP
You can have it both ways.
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Sat 17 Mar 2018 15:36
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - pd

PCP is offered by all manufacturers - not just the Germans. The reason they now sell more cars is they have moved into other market sectors. The days when the entry level Mercedes was a E200 with a list in today's money of £40k and you had to buy your own radio are long gone.

An A Class is pitched directly at a Focus, Kia or whatever and if people choose the Merc then that is simply capitalism.

PCPs are hardly new - they've been going for years and all the 2-4 year old cars seem to find homes one way or another.

It is a free country - if people want to spend money on a car they decide they want whether it be cash or HP then who is to say they shoudn't.

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Sun 18 Mar 2018 00:51
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Big John

PCP-bah humbug!-I can't tolerate the massive depreciation hit of a new car so have always gone for new or nearly new and bought with cash. Key to me is only buying from dealership stock from that dealer's actual location and whilst model is important-I'm flexible about spec/colour/extra toys etc . You can see what you're getting, dealer can "shift" his stock(stock sold means £££ to a dealer?) and if I am lucky--I might get a nice deal. Plus of course-if the test drive is not to my liking, I can change me mind THEN and THERE.

Join the club - that's the way I buy cars! Likewise flexible about spec etc but manage to keep my effective capital costs sub £100 / month and that doing over 15k miles a year

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Sun 18 Mar 2018 06:52
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - madf

We buy cars and keep for as long as they run until crashed beyond repair or big bills. Average Annual deprectaion on Yaris - in our ownership - £42 per month.

On our Jazz - so far - £80 per month.

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Sun 18 Mar 2018 08:56
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - SLO76
Car ownership can be done very cheaply if you’re not image conscious. Buy wisely, avoid the dealers profit margin, don’t be fussy on make of model and buy with half a mind on ease of resale and it can be don’t for buttons.

Using one example of mine a nice little black Mk II Mazda MX5 1800 I bought a few years back in a private sale with 59,000 miles, a full history and tonnes of receipts plus hard top. Cost me £1475. I ran it for two summers and another 10,000 miles, spent around £400 on a few repairs and servicing then flogged it for £1,600. Very cheap motoring indeed especially considering the insurance thanks to living in a nice wee corner of Scotland cost less than £200 a year. B road fun doesn’t come any cheaper.
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Sun 18 Mar 2018 19:31
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - bazza

Yep that's me too, I try to keep to roughly £100 a month each on the 2 main cars we have, including depreciation and repair. It's been a bit over that on the recent Octavia I had, which was troublesome and I sold it a bit earlier than planned. But overall it's a model that's worked over the last 10 years or so. But each to their own, it wouldn't suit most people. IV always been frugal on the motoring front!

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Sun 18 Mar 2018 21:19
PCP bandwagon - will it ever stop? - Big John

With my highish mileage I ignore depreciation - I presume I'm nearly giving the car away at the end. eg with my previous car:-

Skoda Superb 2003 1.9pd

  • Bought at 18 months old @20k miles for £8,200
  • Sold 10 years later @165k miles for £800 (whatever the car most are nearly worthless at this age/mileage)
  • Capital cost per year £617 or £52 month
  • Fairly lucky in that other than servicing very few issues, alternator failed at 120k and it had a couple of front suspension joints but it was still on it's original battery, clutch and exhaust (and still is - now over 200k miles with it's new owner!)

I've survived a longish commute for nearly 3 decades! Clearly fuel economy has to be reasonable (currently doing about £150/month averaged over a year @ 46mpg) but you need to keep an eye on other costs such as tyres! Ultra low profile tyres that cost £250 a corner and only last 10k miles could end up costing me £1500 a year! I target cars with higher profiles with tyres that usually last longer and are much cheaper. On my latest Superb II it has 205/55 16's that last over 35k miles and cost about £80 a corner, about £107 / year!

However (and it's a big however) my strategy might change when I retire and do less miles - might consider PCH (not PCP) instead. There are some stonking deals around these days!

Edited by Big John on 18/03/2018 at 21:22

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