Excellent choice. Nothing better than 12cyl motor cars:-)
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Excellent choice. Nothing better than 12cyl motor cars:-)
Oh there is - a V16 but not many built
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Excellent choice. Nothing better than 12cyl motor cars:-)
Oh there is - a V16 but not many built
A few were indeed built umpteen years ago, but did not prove to be better. But a Bugatti Chiron W16......possibly the ultimate new classic car?
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The W16 isn't a classic engine, nor is a W12 or W8 - sharing a cylinder head over 2 banks of cylinders causes massive compromise.
Cadillac's V16 suffered from being introduced just at the time of the Great Depression and killed by the US entry into WW2 - but regarded as one of the world's classics nevertheless.
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Given the state of brake and tyre development in the 1930s, the straight-six version of the Lagonda was probably the better bet.
Edited by Avant on 20/01/2018 at 14:42
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The W16 isn't a classic engine, nor is a W12 ....... sharing a cylinder head over 2 banks of cylinders causes massive compromise.
I think time will prove you wrong. If his grandfather hadn't been voted car engineer of the century I suspect their progenitor, Ferdinand Piech, might have been. The W12 is a remarkably well-engineered and hugely successful design, taking up less space than its V8 cousins, and after 15yrs of development still selling well internationally in various models. What is the 'massive compromise'?
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Like the VR6 design, a single cylinder head has to cope with what is effectively a narrow-angle V6 which compromises valve angles, valve operating levers/links and port length.
blogs.solidworks.com/teacher/2011/06/w16-engine-th...l
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Like the VR6 design, a single cylinder head has to cope with what is effectively a narrow-angle V6 which compromises valve angles, valve operating levers/links and port length.
blogs.solidworks.com/teacher/2011/06/w16-engine-th...l
I think this is a link to an engineering student's project. If you want to know how a W12 works, here's a link to the real McCoy.
procarmanuals.com/vag-ssp-267-6-0-l-w12-engine-aud.../
I wish more manufacturers would provide these ssp s for geeks like me.
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How refreshing debating W12s instead of the usual identikit 4pot hatchbacks!
Can’t say i’d complain if i had a W12, must be immensely smooth!
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Lancia Fulvia
Gordon Keeble
Alvis TD21
Lotus Cortina Mark 1
Lotus Elan
Saab 96 2 stroke
Hasn't got 4 wheels but have to list it - Suzuki Gt750 kettle.
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How refreshing debating W12s instead of the usual identikit 4pot hatchbacks! Can’t say i’d complain if i had a W12, must be immensely smooth!
It is - utterly delightful, and amazingly nimble. Forty years ago I briefly had a rusty old series one XJ6 4.2; around 200bhp driving the back wheels. The SWB A8 reminds me of it, but with an extra 200bhp driving the front wheels! But it is now a dinosaur - these complicated large engines remind me of the fiendishly complex rotary aero engines just before they were replaced by jet engines with only about three moving parts to go wrong. The future is clearly hydrogen or electricity......(although dinosaurs did actually last a long time!)
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How refreshing debating W12s instead of the usual identikit 4pot hatchbacks! Can’t say i’d complain if i had a W12, must be immensely smooth!
It is - utterly delightful, and amazingly nimble. Forty years ago I briefly had a rusty old series one XJ6 4.2; around 200bhp driving the back wheels. The SWB A8 reminds me of it, but with an extra 200bhp driving the front wheels! But it is now a dinosaur - these complicated large engines remind me of the fiendishly complex rotary aero engines just before they were replaced by jet engines with only about three moving parts to go wrong. The future is clearly hydrogen or electricity......(although dinosaurs did actually last a long time!)
The FWD versions of the A8 didn't have more than 233 PS from the 3.7 V8 - the higher-powered versions had quattro 4wd.
The VW Group W12 isn't yet a dinosaur - Bentley build them for the Continental and Bentayga - not sure if the W12 is built elsewhere in the group or whether Bentley build them all now.
Rotary aero engines, where the cylinders rotated with the propeller were a dead-end after WW1 - the air-cooled radial engines that followed were simpler and more reliable than the glycol-cooled conventional engines like the Merlin, but more bulky for the same power output.
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How refreshing debating W12s instead of the usual identikit 4pot hatchbacks! Can’t say i’d complain if i had a W12, must be immensely smooth!
It is - utterly delightful, and amazingly nimble. Forty years ago I briefly had a rusty old series one XJ6 4.2; around 200bhp driving the back wheels. The SWB A8 reminds me of it, but with an extra 200bhp driving the front wheels! But it is now a dinosaur - these complicated large engines remind me of the fiendishly complex rotary aero engines just before they were replaced by jet engines with only about three moving parts to go wrong. The future is clearly hydrogen or electricity......(although dinosaurs did actually last a long time!)
The FWD versions of the A8 didn't have more than 233 PS from the 3.7 V8 - the higher-powered versions had quattro 4wd.
The VW Group W12 isn't yet a dinosaur - Bentley build them for the Continental and Bentayga - not sure if the W12 is built elsewhere in the group or whether Bentley build them all now.
Rotary aero engines, where the cylinders rotated with the propeller were a dead-end after WW1 - the air-cooled radial engines that followed were simpler and more reliable than the glycol-cooled conventional engines like the Merlin, but more bulky for the same power output.
I think he means 200bhp going through the front wheels as well as 200bhp going through the rears.
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If I could buy a brand new Citroën CX Turbo 2 today - I would in a heartbeat. The car I most regret selling ever.
There are also three cars on my list I nearly bought but didn't and still regret not doing so Citroën BX GTi 16v, MG Maestro Turbo and (this may surprise some people) Škoda Rapid 130 coupe (yes the Iron block rear engined jobbie) - I loved driving those - dynamically rubbish but tonnes of character.
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Doesn't surprise me at all about the skoda Steve, though my memories of contemporary roadtests rated the dynamics rather better than you!. But yes, i do like the old rear engined skoda's, and while at the time they were the butt of many people's jokes regarding reliability, the fact is they were incredibly successful in their class in rallying, something which would not be the case if they were not tough and reliable!. Back in the late 80's me and my pal were ridiculed for our cars, he had a skoda 105 and i had a lada 1600.
I'm also a big fan of your other choices, but do you (or any other members) remember that mental CX advert where it was driven out of Grace Jones mouth!!. As for the BX, much as i like the 16V, i'd actually like a fairly basic 1.4 petrol or the legendary 1.9 diesel. I think the lines of the car work best without any spoilers or bodykits.
The maestro is very much a forgotten hot hatch, and it really was hot, with 0-60 coming up in 6.7 seconds. Worthwhile buying one now and looking after it, if you can find one, as they only made 505.
As for my own 'near misses' (which i wistfully think back on, wondering "what if?"), they included an early saab 900 turbo, a renault 30TS, an opel monza 3.0 and a lhd ex German military police ford granada 2.8i (MK2).
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As for my own 'near misses' (which i wistfully think back on, wondering "what if?"), they included an early saab 900 turbo, a renault 30TS, an opel monza 3.0 and a lhd ex German military police ford granada 2.8i (MK2).
Amazingly I've owned three of the cars you mention! (Used.) The Renault 30 was extremely comfy (almost as comfy as the CX) but had legendary understeer - in fact only a Talbot Rancho I had the misfortune to drive understeered worse, sort of felt like big Maxi to drive. The SAAB was a hoot (although the boost limiting cut-out was a bit crude), that understeered then snap oversteered which kept you honest in the wet but I loved it – for some reason you always felt a step above getting out of the thing – dunno why, and the Monza was an excellent hander – very comfortable and an impressive mile cruncher – shame about the rust as it didn’t really have any other glaring faults, I later revisited the same engine in the form of an Opel Senator 3.0 (The Omega based one) - a truly great car - very under-rated, I honestly think it was better than the BMW 5 series of the day - certainly more refined.
The “standard” MG Maestro EFi was a brilliant car – fantastic chassis with waves of torque that could be driven quickly without revving it hard – a bit like a Dolomite Sprint in that respect. As you say the Turbo was a real hot-rod, the Tickford tweaked suspension moved it up a step further and the performance (dominated by torque-steer, it must be said) was staggering. Some who drag-raced them at Santa Pod RWYBs used to take the steering pump belt off – which shaved half a second off the quarter mile as it stopped the driver over-compensating for the torque-steer and throwing traction away. I remember fairly stock ones running low 15s giving the breathed-on Cossies a hard time, there was also a particular one pumped up to silly boost levels (complete with big intercooler) running constant low 14s and occasionally flirting with the 13s. Unheard of in a front wheel drive car at the time.
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The VW Group W12 isn't yet a dinosaur - Bentley build them for the Continental and Bentayga - not sure if the W12 is built elsewhere in the group or whether Bentley build them all now.
I think they are still made in Saltzgitter for Audi/VW cars. The ones for Bentleys are indeed made in Crewe now (not sure if they are actually 'made' or just assembled). I hope the quality is the same.
I think he means 200bhp going through the front wheels as well as 200bhp going through the rears.
Of course. Pointless having more than about 250 horses and 2WD; unless it's bone dry the traction control will block them. And I suspect the two driven tyres would last no time at all, unless they were absurdly large, which they often are if RWD (e.g. virtually every other 12cyl I can think of) - and then you can't swap them round to even up the wear. Must cost a fortune for Aston Martin owners!
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The VW Group W12 isn't yet a dinosaur - Bentley build them for the Continental and Bentayga - not sure if the W12 is built elsewhere in the group or whether Bentley build them all now.
I think they are still made in Saltzgitter for Audi/VW cars. The ones for Bentleys are indeed made in Crewe now (not sure if they are actually 'made' or just assembled). I hope the quality is the same.
I think he means 200bhp going through the front wheels as well as 200bhp going through the rears.
Of course. Pointless having more than about 250 horses and 2WD; unless it's bone dry the traction control will block them. And I suspect the two driven tyres would last no time at all, unless they were absurdly large, which they often are if RWD (e.g. virtually every other 12cyl I can think of) - and then you can't swap them round to even up the wear. Must cost a fortune for Aston Martin owners!
i was unsure if the W12 was still made in mainland Europe - I'd imagine that all the components are then shared between the two plants for assembly - I hope the Bentley quality is even better than the VW/Audi version.
My misunderstanding about A8 FWD power output
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Someone mentioned the Lotus Cortina-- yes please! Although a simple formula, I have a real liking for the Fast Fords of the 60s and 70s, although are they actually classics or just nostalgic yesterday cars that I never owned because I was too young or didn't have the money. But the RS1600, Mexico, RS 2000 etc are right there on the top of my wish list. Fast forward a decade and there's the Golf 1.8 GTI MK1 and the Peugeot 205 GTI 1.9, both examples of the purest hot hatch. Any of those, plus of course the 1275 Cooper S,if I could buy one today....... brand new.
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But the RS1600, Mexico, RS 2000 etc are right there on the top of my wish list.
I had a Mk2 Escort with a badly done 2.0 pinto conversion, but it was huge fun. That car taught me about crude axles that aren't located properly - I went round a bend too fast on a dry road and the body squirmed sideways making it feel like the back was stepping out. Well it was, but the tyres stayed where they were :-)
A friend had a similar car but he had a rebored 1600 crossflow, stage 3 heads and twin carbs. On the back lanes with rain chucking down we would approach a turning, and he would have it sideways up the next road.
Different era.
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But the RS1600, Mexico, RS 2000 etc are right there on the top of my wish list.
I had a Mk2 Escort with a badly done 2.0 pinto conversion, but it was huge fun. That car taught me about crude axles that aren't located properly - I went round a bend too fast on a dry road and the body squirmed sideways making it feel like the back was stepping out. Well it was, but the tyres stayed where they were :-)
A friend had a similar car but he had a rebored 1600 crossflow, stage 3 heads and twin carbs. On the back lanes with rain chucking down we would approach a turning, and he would have it sideways up the next road.
Different era.
In those days, 70 profile tyres bwere regarded as ultra-low profile - no wonder it squirmed.
Roger Clark was the ace with mk1/2 rally Escorts - his book is "Sideways to Victory" - magic to watch though.
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