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Interesting discussion. I think both Toyota and Honda suffer from the company car culture in the UK. People who don't pay for their own cars and get a new one every few years, care much less for the cars longevity where Toyota and Honda are both strong. Instead they are more bothered about how they will be perceived driving the car. Hence the large number of Audis, Mercedes and BMWs on the roads.
The pay monthly culture also plays a part. German manufacturers are increasingly hiding price cuts in manufacturer discount contributions which are only available on leased cars. The Japanese seem unable to follow. It will be interesting to see what happens in a few years time when all the German diesels come off lease and are worth much less than was expected when the cheap deals were sold.
Honda and Toyota are also disadvantaged because of the 10% import duty they have to pay if they want to import a car from Japan. VAT is then charged on top of the 10% duty tax. The Germans being inside the EU don't have to pay the same duty. Perhaps Brexit will help the Japanese when / if the UK and Japan agree a trade deal.
I agree that Japanese cars in general look ugly. For a nation obssessed with "cute" things like the Japanese are, it's something that I cannot understand.
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I agree that Japanese cars in general look ugly. For a nation obssessed with "cute" things like the Japanese are, it's something that I cannot understand.
Not the case in the home market or the USA, many of their Toyota models are vey good looking, have a quick image search for a new Toyota Camry, or if you want to see what a fine quality car should look like image search for 2018 Toyota Century, showing Bentley and MB how quietly handsome should be done, Lexus on the other hand...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZ6Fb2VanA
Edited by gordonbennet on 18/01/2018 at 14:37
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Not the case in the home market or the USA, many of their Toyota models are vey good looking, have a quick image search for a new Toyota Camry, or if you want to see what a fine quality car should look like image search for 2018 Toyota Century, showing Bentley and MB how quietly handsome should be done, Lexus on the other hand...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZ6Fb2VanA
I should have qualified that by saying Japanese cars sold the UK. Maybe the problem is with the Toyota bosses in the EU/UK who presumably have a big say in how cars sold here should look. In the case of Toyota I do think the Lexus brand also plays a part. Maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling that Lexus, being the premium brand, has to look better than the equivalent Toyota. Having said that some of the latest Lexus cars have been badly hit with the ugly stick too - particularly the front ends.
As for the new Camry, that does look like a great car. I hope Toyota bring it to the UK soon. If they sell an EV version with a 300 mile+ range then I would be very tempted. Sorry but I am not a fan of the Century - thankfully I can't see that arriving on these shores!
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>> Honda and Toyota are also disadvantaged because of the 10% import duty they have to pay if they want to import a car from Japan
How come Hyundai, Suzuki etc. sell cars made in India then?
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I was comparing Honda and Toyota with EU based manufacturers like the prestige German brands.
The Yen's high rate of exchange has also been a factor in recent years for anyone wanting to import cars from Japan into the UK.
As for Hyundai and Suzuki, they still have to pay the 10% duty to import from India however labour costs there will be significantly cheaper than Japan and Korea. What's interesting is that they choose to manufacture in India over some of the poorer EU countries. Perhaps India offered some juicy subsidies to get the work there?
FWIW Toyota also manufacture around the world presumably wherever costs are lower. IIRC the C-HRs are made in Turkey as was the Verso.
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Yes, our Hilux was made in South Africa.
What does seem consistent generally (there have been hiccups which Akio Toyoda made a very public apology for) is Toyota quality standards apply wherever the cars are made.
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>> latest Lexus cars have been badly hit with the ugly stick too - particularly the front ends.
+100
Every single Lexus now looks just awful. Toyota is not far behind though.
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I agree that Japanese cars in general look ugly. For a nation obssessed with "cute" things like the Japanese are, it's something that I cannot understand.
Not the case in the home market or the USA, many of their Toyota models are vey good looking, have a quick image search for a new Toyota Camry, or if you want to see what a fine quality car should look like image search for 2018 Toyota Century, showing Bentley and MB how quietly handsome should be done, Lexus on the other hand...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=haZ6Fb2VanA
On this Toyota are moving/ promoting US designer Ian Cartabiano to President and Chief Designer of their European Design studio. He has a stylish track record:
"Cartabiano, 43, was the lead designer for the LF-LC concept that became the LC 500, and the FT-4X concept that (if built) could give fits to the Jeep Wrangler. Recent production vehicles under his purview were the 2018 C-HR subcompact crossover, the 2018 Camry redesign, and the 2013 Avalon."
www.motortrend.com/news/toyotas-top-u-s-designer-i.../
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Certainly Toyota are more focussed on making a reasonable profit from their cars, rather than, as is the case with some European manufacturers, sales volumes. Hence why they don't discount as heavily as some.
One of the reasons why, some years ago, they withdrew the Previa from Europe was due to the discounting of the Galaxy, etc which, if they gave discounts at a similar level, would have wiped out the profit margin.
Concentrating too much on volumes is why Ford Europe have seesawed between profit and loss, and ultimately why GM offloaded Vauxhall/Opel.VW's profits per car are far lower than Toyota's.
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Is that right the Rav 4 is still in production, maybe minus the diesel version . I would have thought the new crossover would have catered for this market ?
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The Rav4 is still in production and still on sale in Europe and the UK. Available in 2.0 petrol automatic (FWD and AWD), 2.0 litre manual diesel (FWD), and 2.5 hybrid (FWD and AWD).
The C-HR is smaller than the Rav4, so fits in below the Rav4..
The replacement Prius+ is rumoured to be an SUV - to slot in between the C-HR and the Rav4.
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Certainly Toyota are more focussed on making a reasonable profit from their cars, rather than, as is the case with some European manufacturers, sales volumes. Hence why they don't discount as heavily as some.
One of the reasons why, some years ago, they withdrew the Previa from Europe was due to the discounting of the Galaxy, etc which, if they gave discounts at a similar level, would have wiped out the profit margin.
The Galaxy is a nice car to drive, Ford being particularly good at chassis set up, but the quality isn't there, with the cars suffering from many niggling problems as they age (especially given the neglect that family vehicles usually suffer), which you just don't get with Toyota.
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I bought a new toyota corolla for my driving school. The 12 valve 1.3 1990's model with the long bonnet.
Mistake! The car was so quiet that the pupils could not hear when to change gear.
One guy even stated off (smoothly) in 3rd gear then 4th then 5th and wondered why he was going so fast. Amusing at the time but I had to cut my lossed and ecchange it for a noisy nissan Micra.
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Real shame neither Toyota nor Honda have entered the commercial vehicle market.
I know Toyota now sell a re-bagged Citroen/Peugeot and before that had their own hi-ace, but this is a market with lots of independent buyers who would love to be able to get genuine Japanese reliability over the European junk that has problems after 3/4 years of age.
As 99% are diesel, there are lots of vans becoming too expensive and complex to fix around 5/6 years old and heading to the scrap yard.
Just look at the prices the pre-rebadged Peugeot panel vans go for. People tend to keep them, the only ones that show up on the market are well used and still command a premium.
Never understood why neither firm have properly entered the market in Europe or the UK, the profit margins on commercial vehicles are far bigger than passenger vans.
In a separate note, the first manufacturer to offer a medium size petrol van is going to clean up in terms of sales, there is nothing on the market in the UK and it’s something my local Renault/Nissan dealer has confirmed they have had plenty of requests but Renault UK not interested.
VW now do the transporter with a petrol engine but they are factory order only with no discount, an absolute rip off at the price.
If only Citroen, Fiat or Ford could offer something reasonably priced.
Which takes me onto my next point. With family’s growing in the UK, there is a real lack of 7 seater options and big 5 seater MPV options.
Not everyone wants an SUV.
Dacia are meant to have done a study into re-tooling the Morocco plant for right hand drive which produced the Dokker but considered the sales volume not worth it.
Now Vauxhall have stopped building cars for the sake of it under Peugeot/Citroen ownership such as the Zafira tourer, there is a shortage of cheap pre reg 7 seaters, especially petrol models and a gap in the market.
Again, my local Nissan/Renault dealer was telling me they can’t get enough petrol 7 seaters that fit their profile (less than 6 years old) , they sell within a week of going on the forecourt.
Edited by daveyK_UK on 21/01/2018 at 09:39
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It could be a Kodak moment for some manufacturers. They are so heavily invested in diesels that they would continue to feed market with diesel cars even though public want petrol.
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The issue for Toyota when they ceased to import the Hiace, was the exchange rate.
Of course Toyota are still in the commercial vehicle market in Europe with the Hilux (built in South Africa), including specialist conversions (eg West Midlands Fire Service use the Hilux for their brigade response vehicles - replacing Landrover Discovery's used in the trial period).
Edited by Auristocrat on 21/01/2018 at 11:14
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I know it's an old thread (though not quite a zombie yet) but thought this might be relevant.
Toyota have announced a new 2.0 litre hybrid. It appears the 2019 Auris ( to be launched in Geneva) will be first to be supplied with it.I expect it to be available in UK/ Ireland.
Some technical info here: https://newsroom.toyot...powertrain2018/ths2/
Not an employee or particular fan boy, but in a different forum 3 months ago I posted that my next car (in a few years) would ideally be:
"... Toyota/ lexus, maybe Honda, will have reasonably priced hybrid (or regular petrol auto) which:
Does sub 8 seconds 0-60 (sub 7 be better :-)
Does 60+ mpg (in real world!)
Handles well."
This might be a step closer! BTW here''s info on new Auris launch: https://www.motor1.com...toyota-auris-teased/
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Try this one: www.motor1.com/news/234121/2019-toyota-auris-tease.../
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Interesting that they are including port injection as well as direct injection on the new engine to improve fuel efficiency. I wonder if one of the other intentions is to stop carbon fouling of the valves.
And a long stroke design - will this be a torquey engine?
Edited by corax on 27/02/2018 at 17:04
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Thanks for fixing link, here's the link for technical look at new 2.0 hybridvsystem:
newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/powertrain2018/ths2/
As an aside I'd imagine that this development could overshadow the 2016 Prius if it can compete on efficency while improving power and torque.
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Last September, Toyota announced theory would introduce a sportier hybrid drivetrains, and presumably the new 2 litre drivetrain is it.
Expect it will feature in the Prius and the C-HR later this year/early next year.
The 2 litre hybrid awd system could replace the BMW diesels currently used in the Rav4, as well as featuring in the rumoured SUV to replace the Verso/Prius+.
Toyota have also recently announced a new 1.5 hybrid engine which, for European models, will be built at their Polish plant, presumably for the 4th generation Yaris.
Edited by Auristocrat on 27/02/2018 at 19:04
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Apologies for resurrection but saw this on an Irish forum and said I'd share:
newsroom.toyota.eu/camry-returns-to-western-europe.../
As I said previously I'd be interested if spec and price are reasonable. A similar choice of spec to the USA would be ideal. (I'd be going for LE equivalent, basic model but highest mpg).
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It certainly looks more interesting and dynamic than previous Camry models, but unless it is very competitively priced i can't see it making much of an impact in the badge obsessed UK market. Presumably this will be identical mechanically to the Lexus IS?
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So will this effectively be a cheaper re-bagged Lexus?
I hope so
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So will this effectively be a cheaper re-bagged Lexus?
I hope so
I don't know this for sure, but economies of scale suggest it could well be. I'm not suggesting it won't be a good car, i just don't think the image obsessed UK car buyers will take to it. And Toyota UK may feel the same way, meaning it may not come here. Still, if Ireland get it.....
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Words & picture of new Camry
tinyurl.com/y847dbcs
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Toyota GB have already issued a statement that the Camry will be comig to the UK.
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