Thanks chaps - really blown away by the responses
2 quick questions from me then:
- why do so many people say steer clear of old diesels. I thought diesels were the work horses that lasted for 500k miles without breaking sweat?
- what about peugeot 207's or Renault Clios?
Diesels are much more complex and thus there's more that can and likely will go wrong. They also tend to have higher mileages and also the bulk of people buy them to save money and then scrimp on servicing which these more complex engines don't take kindly to. The days of the simple old bombproof non-turbo diesel motor are long gone sadly, they are in general far less reliable than petrol equivalents.
French cars are fairly trouble prone as they age thus the exclusion of the Clio or 207. But that said there's an argument in favour of a well looked after base model 1.4 8v 207 as a cheap runabout. They're not brilliant on fuel for a small car though. I'd leave the diesels, the 1.6 is notorious and the 1.4 sluggish and £1k won't get you a good one. Don't touch the VTi petrols either, it's not a good engine.
The Clio is mechanically fairly robust if you can find one that's been looked after but most buy them because they're cheap then don't service them at all. Almost ever one I've been offered has zero history or any sign of regular maintenance. Timing belts snap early on so again it's a must to fit a new one if there's no proof it's been done. Mk II's are known for the bonnet latches failing on poorly maintained cars too which can result in the bonnet flipping up at speed causing a hell of a shock and the high likelihood of an accident. Mk III's are better made but still a bit brittle regarding trim etc.
I'd sooner buy a 1.25 Fiesta which uses a Yamaha designed motor. Very tough little engines and great fun to drive but not that great on fuel for a small car with 40mpg probably all you'll get. The timing belt is due at 8yrs or 100k but they're not prone to failure. I'd still do it if you intend on pounding motorways though if there's no proof it's been done already.
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Strange the software on here doesn't let you post in paragraphs when using the quote previous message option... I'm not just being lazy.
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Older Diesels are alright if you choose the right one, and its been maintained well and driven with mechanical sympathy and you continue that tlc.
They've gained bad reputations because IMHO some maker's idea of servicing is not going to give the vehicle the best chance of a long life, this applies to some petrols too of course.
Then as said you have owners who haven't the foggiest idea of what decent servicing entails, and wouldn't give a thought to treating the turbo well for a long life.
Not forgetting the EGR valve problems, which some German cars in particular throw up regularly, sited in stupid places in cars not designed with repair in mind so this job alone can be near enough a 4 figure sum to renew, the maker concerned normally reverting to type and only after an outcry or the recent scandal appearing to be in the slightest interested in its customers.
Don't mention DPF's, another world of trouble, Mazda anyone?
Cambelts versus cam chains, belt needs to be changed on or before time, and you have little way of knowing (at this budget) if the kit was full, the water pump if cambelt driven was changed or if the kit was decent quality or some third rate £20 belt only from the local accessory shop with everything else re-used.
Chains are supposed to last longer but some designs require a new chain at x miles, as some Merc owners have found to their cost when the MItsi engines fitted with a single chain require replacement at around 80k miles IIRC, and if people follow the minimal servicing specified and/or allow the oil level to drop then a chain and its tensioner/guides will suffer on all makes.
This is one of several aspects many people don't investigate properly, a chain will more than likely cost big money to change, cambelts can vary between about £220 (80 if you diy, one hour) for a Toyota 3.0 d4d, one of the easiest cambelt changes i've seen and done, or the job can be getting on for 4 figures for complicated designs with £500 belt changes quite common.
I cannot for life of me work out why cambelts have to drive water pumps, cambelts following tortuous routes and driving far too many things, the cambelt if properly designed has one purpose, to drive the camshaft(s), there is no earthy reason why it shouldn't be doing that alone, a water pump will happily do its job driven off the auxilliary belt and if it seizes or the bearing falls apart all it does is spring a leak and possibly chucks the aux belt off, leaving the cambelt untouched....my verdict..vote with feet, don't buy into vehicles designed to last little longer than the warranty period.
Edited by gordonbennet on 09/10/2017 at 15:56
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"Strange the software on here doesn't let you post in paragraphs when using the quote previous message option... I'm not just being lazy."
Certainly strange, as that's not a problem on my computer.
It makes one think - we put up with cussedness, obstinacy and sheer stupidity from software designers on our desktops and laptops which would be unacceptable in cars. A 1930s to 1950s sidevalve Ford started more quickly from cold than Windows does.
Fortunately the electronics in most of our cars are comparatively reliable.
Good luck with your search Matt - remember that at this budget level condition matters much more than make or model. That said, you've a better chance of gettng a good one if you look for a petrol Toyota, Honda or Mazda, and the advantage of Fords is there are a lot of the around to choose from.
As well as Autotrader, have a look at Cars for Sale on this website.
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""Strange the software on here doesn't let you post in paragraphs when using the quote previous message option... I'm not just being lazy."
Certainly strange, as that's not a problem on my computer.
Must be iPhone related. I'm rarely on my laptop.
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""Strange the software on here doesn't let you post in paragraphs when using the quote previous message option... I'm not just being lazy." Certainly strange, as that's not a problem on my computer. Must be iPhone related. I'm rarely on my laptop.
That thing is an issue for me if and when I post comments to HJ's Saturday Agony collumn. Normally pressing the return key automatically adds a line spacing, but on those pages it never does for me anyway (whether I use my PC [Firefox on Win7] or tablet [Firefox on Android]). It tries to correct itself if I edit a post, sometimes, not all the time. Rarely an issue on the main Back Room pages, but occasionally.
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thanks for this - certainly learning something today
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- what about peugeot 207's or Renault Clios?
I keep mentioning the diesel 207 SW I have owned since Christmas 2008. It hasn't done heavy miles (67K on the clock now) but it has never needed any unexpected work, just tyres, discs and pads. It has no DPF (just too old) which may have avoided some trouble. So it may be possible to find a pre-2008 model to fit your bill.
60+ mpg over 9 years.
Edited by Andrew-T on 09/10/2017 at 17:00
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- what about peugeot 207's or Renault Clios?
I keep mentioning the diesel 207 SW I have owned since Christmas 2008. It hasn't done heavy miles (67K on the clock now) but it has never needed any unexpected work, just tyres, discs and pads. It has no DPF (just too old) which may have avoided some trouble. So it may be possible to find a pre-2008 model to fit your bill.
60+ mpg over 9 years.
Lucky you. The problem, as SLO says, that without definitive proof of a full service history and having no serious repairs (especially if the owner covers it up), there's a good chance the OP could be buying a proverbial money pit. Most really old diesels that were hardy are now, in my view end of life vehicles and could eaily fail for other reasons (even if the engine is still ok) due to age.
The OPs best way of getting an older car with an honest FSH is from a trusted friend, colleague or relative who they can vouch for (they may have, like me, a file full of all the car's receipts and service records), including that it was driven sympatheitcally, serviced as per the manufacturer's requrements or better (I would avoid ANY car on a 'extended mileage' service plan as many Euro makes have done over the last 10 years), and had fixed any MOT advisories well before the next one.
In my view, never trust the opinion of a 'friend' (anyone really) who drives like an F1 driver/maniac, and/or has lots of accidents/pts on the licence and/or a long line of MOT failures, especially on obvious safety-related items such as bald tyres. I used to work with a guy who only had fixed problems on his car if they became MOT failures. Needless to say I was the one volunteering to drive us to a site meeting in my car when travelling together.
I agree that for cars with relatively unknown histories, except MOTs and when the car was serviced (they can check with the dealerships if they are lucky), then its best to stay with a basic NA petrol driven car. If the OP does drive with a light right foot and is going to be doing mostly motorway miles, then he could, like me, get 40mpg out of a 1.6 Mazda3 petrol engined car...just (I get 40.5 - 41 ave even though its now 11yo, though admitedly its only done 62k miles).
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I wouldn't totally rule out the French stuff. You can get 407s for nothing these days and they're not great cars but good motorway cruisers.
A 2.0 hdi is still quite a decent old bus. Main issues are rattling dual mass flywheels so check carefully I'd buying. Engines are usually ok and will do 50mpg. Egr Can be blanked off if they play up. Front ball joints are weak and need regular replacement.
Avoid a 1.6 as they're not more economical and a less reliable engine.
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Just to add on history it is important but the most important thing is the condition at point of purchase.
It can have 28 stamps in the book and never an advisory but if it's been sold because a major fault has just cropped up you should avoid it.
You can never buy a cheap car on paper just looking at paperwork. The most important thing is what is wrong right here right now and what maintenance is imminent.
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Old diesels are horrible; they stink and along with US and Chinese CO emissions they're killing the planet (though not the elephants). So please don't buy one.
Get a petrol Fiesta: not complicated, so likely to be an easyish, cheap fix which doesn't keep you off the road for too long if anything short of the catastrophic DOES go wrong.
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Old diesels whilst often undefined can be good for upwards
of 500k miles before rebuild. Running one of those has got
to be better than buying a new car so far as saving the world goes.
With that said, what a car allegedly does or doesn't
to the planet has to be the most irrelevant factor
ever suggested. Who cares!
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You can smell an old diesel a mile off. 500k miles of spewing out stinking filth...yeah, great recommendation.
Round here most of the minicabs are diesels, a mix of Mondeos and Rovers. Horrible, filthy things, and driving behind them for any length of time is like wearing a space helmet full of smog.
As for saving the planet, plenty of car manufacturers have got themselves in serious bother trying to make out that they're doing just that, so they acknowledge that car buyers care, even if you don't.
And I care too, so for me, no diesels, and hopefully not for the OP either.
Edited by argybargy on 09/10/2017 at 20:19
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The OP never said he wanted to save the planet . He wont make any difference on his own so if he buys a car that is legal I dont care how much smog he spews out
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The OP never said he wanted to save the planet . He wont make any difference on his own so if he buys a car that is legal I dont care how much smog he spews out
Well, I suppose we could employ that same logic in lots of other ways. For example, "I'll just throw this litter on the floor because a little bit of litter won't wreck the planet. Oh hang on, a billion other people are thinking the same thing, and now the world is knee deep in rubbish".
How good a diesel can you get for a grand--seriously? Something state of the art which, although the emissions might have been faked, isn't going to make much difference to the quality of the air we breathe? Or a stinking old rattle trap that goes on forever but pumps out toxic filth every day of its smelly old life?
I've always bought petrol. Some of those cars haven't been very good, but they've been bad buys because I've bought in the rain, not done my research, hankered after that marque too much to check the car over properly before buying, etc etc. They haven't ever been "bad cars" because they're petrol. I avoid diesel because for me, cheap diesel cars means mucky air. The presence of an old diesel is always, in my experience, heralded by an unpleasant niff. And I don't want to add to that.
I hope the OP doesn't either, but yes, his choice.
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The OP never said he wanted to save the planet . He wont make any difference on his own so if he buys a car that is legal I dont care how much smog he spews out
Well, I suppose we could employ that same logic in lots of other ways. For example, "I'll just throw this litter on the floor because a little bit of litter won't wreck the planet. Oh hang on, a billion other people are thinking the same thing, and now the world is knee deep in rubbish".
How good a diesel can you get for a grand--seriously? Something state of the art which, although the emissions might have been faked, isn't going to make much difference to the quality of the air we breathe? Or a stinking old rattle trap that goes on forever but pumps out toxic filth every day of its smelly old life?
I've always bought petrol. Some of those cars haven't been very good, but they've been bad buys because I've bought in the rain, not done my research, hankered after that marque too much to check the car over properly before buying, etc etc. They haven't ever been "bad cars" because they're petrol. I avoid diesel because for me, cheap diesel cars means mucky air. The presence of an old diesel is always, in my experience, heralded by an unpleasant niff. And I don't want to add to that.
I hope the OP doesn't either, but yes, his choice.
I hope you realise that while you are huffing and puffing about diesels you are chuffing out cubic metres of CO2 from one end of you and methane from the other end so a bit less of the holier-than-thou attitude from you will do nicely thank you.
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The OP never said he wanted to save the planet . He wont make any difference on his own so if he buys a car that is legal I dont care how much smog he spews out
Well, I suppose we could employ that same logic in lots of other ways. For example, "I'll just throw this litter on the floor because a little bit of litter won't wreck the planet. Oh hang on, a billion other people are thinking the same thing, and now the world is knee deep in rubbish".
How good a diesel can you get for a grand--seriously? Something state of the art which, although the emissions might have been faked, isn't going to make much difference to the quality of the air we breathe? Or a stinking old rattle trap that goes on forever but pumps out toxic filth every day of its smelly old life?
I've always bought petrol. Some of those cars haven't been very good, but they've been bad buys because I've bought in the rain, not done my research, hankered after that marque too much to check the car over properly before buying, etc etc. They haven't ever been "bad cars" because they're petrol. I avoid diesel because for me, cheap diesel cars means mucky air. The presence of an old diesel is always, in my experience, heralded by an unpleasant niff. And I don't want to add to that.
I hope the OP doesn't either, but yes, his choice.
I hope you realise that while you are huffing and puffing about diesels you are chuffing out cubic metres of CO2 from one end of you and methane from the other end so a bit less of the holier-than-thou attitude from you will do nicely thank you.
Last time I checked, this forum was open to all opinions, as long as they didn't break any of the rules as stated above. I haven't attacked a person, but just a machine. A machine I don't particularly like or rate. Nobody has come to any serious harm as a result of my comments, and the sensible posters, of whom there are many, have just ignored them.
Only the fragile of temperament, it seems, have found it necessary to come to the aid of old diesels on this thread.
If you have one of those stinking old diesels and you're piqued by my comments, then I'm truly sorry for you, but not sorry for saying that I don't like them. After all, its an internet forum, and not real life.
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