What I am about to say may upset people but the reason some garages struggle with modern cars is, and I'm sorry, but a lot of people in the motor trade are a bit thick.

Think back to school and were the brightest and the best considering the Law, a Doctor, a IT expert or Car Mechanic all as options? Probably not but they should now because the level of skills and intelligence needed on cars to diagnose faults is on a par with a skilled IT expert or a Solicitor.

I say diagnosis because that is where all the issues lie - fitting parts is simple, knowing which parts to replace is much harder.

This isn't across the board as there are some very smart people out there who have invested in proper equipment and training and know how to use it and they are doing well and earning (and can charge) serious money. These people and garages will survive and prosper. The ones who haven't learnt anything new since 1992 and struggle with basic writing will really struggle with modern cars.

This applies to independents and main dealers. There are loads of main dealers where the service department struggles because they haven't got the right people and skills.

I would take issue though with the idea that the information isn't out there. Manufacturers make most of their info available to main dealers and independents alike. Even Jo Public can access it usually. They have been obliged to by law. Nearly all of them have a website where you can pay by the hour, day, month or year and get full main dealer level documentation.

For example, go to service.citroen.com, pay €7 and you can get every TSB, fault finding guide and instructions a Citroen main dealer can get. Other manufacturer have the same thing. Volvo's includes access to their main dealer level diagnosis software as well.

You can access the same stuff often through other online services such as Autodata now as well.

It has actually never been easier for independents to get main dealer level info but they (and the customer) need to pay for it and, most importantly, they need the brains to be able to use it.

My trusty independent started out as an apprentice (to a Morris Minor Specialist) over 40 years ago, has been on many training courses over the years and now owns and runs his own garage with his brother.

Very capable, very honest, good at diagnosis by traditional methods as well as the 'plug in' method, and will refer a customer to the relevant dealer in case of doubt instead of playing 'parts bingo' at the customer's expense.

As with my industry being dumbed down to attract ever cheaper staff (and the industry seemingly confused why the standards are so low, HELLOOO is anyone awake), does anyone think good mechanics are going to be queueing up for £9 to £12 an hour, when the dealer is billing them out at up to £100 an hour, and considerably more for that for those with more money than sense.

Talking of fire, massive queue northbound on the M1 thisafternoon just before jct 16, oh look a Freelander 1 burnt to a crisp, i did wonder if it might have been a Zafira but me second guess was right.

As gordonbennet says above a lot of the industry does not pay enough. Even main dealers are not going to attact in someone who is an expect in CAN Bus and actually understand how it all works at £40k a year. The people capable of doing this sort of stuff would be on a £100k in anoher industry.

As for indendents they can get access to TSBs and software updates if they invest in the right equipment, training and on-going support. The problem is many of them buy some kit, skip the training and then won't pay for the on-going support. The information is out there if they need it and there is no excuse for using the wrong oil or something unless they are thick or slapdash.

The advantage, for a customer, of a good independent on a an older car is that they might actually try and fix somethng rather than just replace it. For example, if a (common one this) turbo actuator goes on a car then a main dealer will usually only replace the whole turbo (as they are instructed to) but an actuator can be rebuilt for £150 or so, ABS/ESP units, climate control units, gearbox ECUs, actuators, etc, there is a massive industry now in rebuilding these sort of things often at vastly less cost than buying a new one.

Yes most car main dealers are charging about £100/ hour or more. How is it then that I found that the local truck dealer ( Renault trucks) only charges £65.00/hr for labour?

I was pleasantly surprised and my son is now using them for his large IVECO pickup, as they are local and used to be the Iveco dealer and do stock Iveco parts.

Most big trucks have as much technology in them, as cars, if not more.

Yes most car main dealers are charging about £100/ hour or more. How is it then that I found that the local truck dealer ( Renault trucks) only charges £65.00/hr for labour?

I was pleasantly surprised and my son is now using them for his large IVECO pickup, as they are local and used to be the Iveco dealer and do stock Iveco parts.

Most big trucks have as much technology in them, as cars, if not more.

No glass palace, basic seating and a a coffee machine (buy your own) in reception, service receptionist(s) do a lot more than sit and preen and smile, no small army of suits doing naff all, premises in industrial areas not retail parks or main road frontages.

Lorries are bought on overall costings to a great extent (though performance fuel economy and likely reliability and dealer/ make back up are are considerations), with an agreed price for repair and maintenance costs over a 3 or 5 year lease being very common now, if Renault charged £15k more over the 5 years than MAN for an equivalent vehicle they'd never shift another unit...my company would not lease a vehicle where overnight service and inspection wasn't the norm, minimal down time is our biggie.

Lorries are a lot more reliable than cars, problems can arise but are sorted in record time, if the lorry dealers behaved like certain high image car dealers towards their customers they'd go broke in record time.

I'm not surprised that the lorry side of things is like this - whilst forums like this one (and others, such as owners' forums for specific cars and/or makes) are very informative and useful, business people and those in trades have been using intra/inter-business and industry contacts and general word-of-mouth for years regarding issues of quality and customer service for their own equipment (I've seen this in Construction for plant, machinery etc), and it only seems logical that it extends to vehicles, particularly when they are the money-earning centres of such business. Its just a shame that more ordinary people cannot do the same for personally-owned cars, including getting past prejudices/biases for or against certain products and manufacturers.

All too often we see people who appear to either have been very lucky or unlucky thinking that their experiences are the norm and behaving as such, whether when buying a new car or giving advice, recommendations or making comments on forums such as this one.

I think it is still very difficult to get specific advice and genuine unbiased feedback/reviews about local motoring services - for example I was looking at having some minor work done on my car (which I am tempted to do myself, but may turn out to be a bit more tricky to carry out than I first thought), but I was reluctant to use my local main dealer (who I have always used for servicing and repairs/replacements) as they wanted the car in for a whole day for 'diagnostics' and, to me, appeared to be going down the road of just replacing a part or two (for a lot of money) that essentially just needed cleaning, taking about 30 mins, a rag/paper towel and the use of some specialist spray cleaner (not all, both cost £10-£15 total).

I could only find one local indie garage that had remotely what looked like good reviews (mostly no reviews at all - some didn't even have websites) and most of them were on the garage's own website (which may or may not be genuine). Most people I know locally either only use main dealers or, for those that do use indies, I wouldn't trust their opinion. One thing I did notice when looking on the internet generally was how much better things were in other countries, particularly the US, where:

a) indie garage mechanics seem to be much more often 'old school' in terms of having a wide range knowledge and not just 'brand specific' and concerning major parts or just servicing as many working at main dealerships do (besides the extra profits in just replacing parts that just need a clean etc, many don't have the know-how to carry out minor repairs or cleaning work), and;

b) whilst there are good and bad indie garages and main dealers, the public at large seem to be far more clued up on who is good and who isn't, useful information is far more freely available, including forward-thinking mechanics who use YouTube to showcase their skills free of charge by giving really useful advice and showing DIYers how to do a lot work themselves in a straight-forward, competent way. In the UK, in my view, mechanics/garages are far more likely (by several degrees, other than those showing off their 'modding' skills to 'yoofs') to be featured on BBC Watchdog or the local news for ripping off clients than having tens of thousands (or more) subscribers to their YouTube channel.

I think we in the UK are very poor at customer service, but just as bad, we are often too reluctant to share bad experiences (and good ones) with friends and family because we are often too embarrassed to say that we were either so easily duped or that some related skill we have (e.g. being an engineer, someone working in the car industry or who is in sales/contract negotiations and should know certain 'tactics' by rip-off merchants or industry scams) should've warned us off. We're getting better at seeing problems before its too late or complaining (like our American cousins), but we're still not that good at it, as I often see on shows like Watchdog or Rip-off Britain.

Us men in particular don't want to admit we've made a glaring mistake (ego), often because we think we will lose credibility amongst friends and colleagues (sadly that can happen), which, to me, is often why some forum members, whether first-timer OPs asking for 'advice' (not really, just wanting some comforting words to say they weren't a total idiot rather than some home truths) or long-time members who are stuck in their ways and who rather do something really foolish or take such acts to their graves rather than admit they made a mistake.

Most big trucks have as much technology in them, as cars, if not more.

Far more Tech than cars, I drove a new Mercedes Actros last week and it knows the topography of the road your on for the next 4km. It uses this to know when your near the top of a hill and it cuts off power so you just roll up and over the peak of the hills using the momentum of the vehicle.

• Unless some clueless driver in front balks you, of course!

Yes, i am due a new tractor unit early in the new year, my first task will be to find the off button for that GPS terrain prediction if it unfortunately has the facility.

Also hoping the lane guidance and emergency braking arn't as sensitive as those fitted to some of our 65 plate vehicles, where the lane guidance faff does its head in when you are on a B road with white lined road edges and the emergency braking which brought one of my colleagues to a dead panic stop from just under 30mph when it 'saw' a bollard presumably about to jump in front...same make aso reputed to have stopped dead when approaching overhead obstructions, what could possibly go wrong.

I only drove the new Actros for a day, the lane guidance did go off a couple of times for no reason (seems to be when passing side roads with give way lines), a couple of drivers have reported false emergency braking.

Most big trucks have as much technology in them, as cars, if not more.

Far more Tech than cars, I drove a new Mercedes Actros last week and it knows the topography of the road your on for the next 4km. It uses this to know when your near the top of a hill and it cuts off power so you just roll up and over the peak of the hills using the momentum of the vehicle.

Pity they don't have the technology to tell you when its best to overtake! To many HGV drivers STILL swings out from right up the behind of the HGV in front to overtake them on dual carriageways and motorways going up hill at 1mph (if that) faster, often leading to them taking several minutes to accomplish the task and causing heavy tailbacks when it happens multiple times over a few tens of miles. As I said on another thread, technology (at present anyway) is always trumped by poor driving.

I suspect that some 'new tech' in HGVs is very expensive and out of reach for most car buyers, but is well worth it for companies/drivers with HGVs if it can save time/fuel over the lifetime of the vehicle, when fuel efficiency often means just as much as travel time.

Lots to comment on in this thread:

1. As a regular reader (but only very occasional poster), I am nearly always impressed with much that SLO and GB say, and that SLO goes to such effort to give good yet free advice.

2. With our current cars being a RAV4 and a Picanto (both of which we're very happy with), I gratefully acknowledge having been influenced by posters on this website.

3. I usually disagree about the merit of dealer servicing. The Kia is a very honourable exception, with annual services costing little more than £100 (booked online) and the second year service included a brake fluid change at no extra cost. For so long as this standard and price are maintained, I will continue to frequent the local Kia dealer for an annual service (at least until the warranty expires - which is a good few years yet).

4. I'm a lot less happy with the more expensive servicing at the local Toyota garage. I posted a mild grumble about it on here last year and replies were along the lines of some of the above (cars are complex, special skills needed, etc). This year's experience was worse - couldn't print the paperwork and would post it out (they didn't), found the car parked with the rear bumper against a bollard afterwards (although luckily no damage was done so I said nothing) and, when I examined the car afterwards at home, I found brake fluid splashed over all the inside tyre walls (I had requested the brake fluid change - at extra cost - that should have been undertaken at the Year 2 service, but wasn't). And never has this garage removed a single wheel during a service, although the owner's maual stipulates tyre rotation every few thousand miles (AWD - I rotate the wheels myself after bringing the car home from each service). All very disappointing for a brand that is often commended here for customer service. So next year, I definitely will be doing the service myself (as I have done many times on other cars over more than 30 years). As mentioned above, online access to official manuals is available for just £3 or £4/hour, and I have also found Toyota GB to offer a good and convenient (if slightly expensive) parts facility through their ebay shop. Good car, backup seems good from Toyota GB, but shame about the dealer servicing.

5. I can't add anything to the pot about lorries though!