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Thank you for your very helpful thoughts. I was thinking of either about £20k on a Jag XKR or £28kish if it's the 5.0 or 4.2 XKRS. Vantage we're talking 30+ but Jag will likely depreciate more.
Whilst you're alsmost certainly right that 0-60 less than 6s is unnecessary on UK roads and I should listen to you, the midlife crisis in me disagrees - even though I know you're right. Rightly or wrongly I just have this inner sense of disappointment that my wonderful tiptronic TT does 0-60 in 6.2s. It's grated on my immature mind ever since I got it, as I've caved in pathetically to taunts from my own head and that it can easily be outdone by any hald decent sports car, M3, or even many hot hatches thesedays! Not that I'm into traffic light grand prixs, but I've been rinsed enough times at the lights by seemingly looking crappyhatchbacks (that were probably sub-6 hothatches trying to push past me that I feel "you know what, I don't need it per se, but I could really do with a beast that hits sub 5s so I can have some confidence and boyish pride" Embarrasingly stupid yes, but it's how I feel.
Yeah Nissan Skyline GTR is incredible and absolutely destroys alsmot everything 0-60 but having said that if as you righlty say <6s is pointless then 3.5s is definitely pointless, especially for someone who has no interest in track days. Still, if only it was more understated in its looks I might've considered it. I coudn't possibly drive aroud in something that looks like that. Immature though my mind is, I don't want people to know that! :)
I hear your opinion re: the Jag and it has given me food for thought. Can you tell me... 1) how much is, say, a 20k Xkr likely to depreciate in 6 years? I'd have thought like any other car it will be 1.5-2k a year. But a Jag salesman was trying to convince me it will probably start bottoming out in the next 5 yers and may even rise. 2) Isn't itquite a long and unweildy car difficult to park and manouvre? I only say this because my TT is compact and easy to park, but it might be fine. 3) Are the seats in the back of any use at all? With my TT I thrice needed to put my child seat in the back when our family car was in the garage and it saved us major hassle. A couple of times I was able to get my wife in the back for short journeys when needed. Is the Jag any easier or harder than the TT do you know? 4) Whilst it may have the paddles, any idea what the auto is like? I imagine it's not twin clutch like my TT ? Is it fast enough? Will it jump off the line the second I want it to like a manual would? 5) Is the 5.0 version worth it?
Edited by LikeFastCars on 09/04/2017 at 01:11
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I've driven XKR and XJR on Jaguar experience days. Both are very rapid, I really wouldn't concern myself about hesitancy. On a short mororway sliproad I managed to get to very illegal speeds before entering the main carriageway. Downside of course is mpg, single figures is easily achieved.
Back seats of the XKR may take a child, but not an adult, we tried.
As you are just setting out on deciding I would use the summer to get to know the cars. There are Jaguar and Aston owners clubs. Get to know the local group members, visit their car shows and ask questions about what you are getting in to. You often find cars for sale at these events, quite often they have piles of invoices. This will give you an idea of the expense you are getting in to!
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That's helpful thank you :)
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1/ They will bottom out but not for a while yet. I'd expect well cared for cars to stop around £7-£8k then the salesmans prediction will come true and they'll start to rise. But again don't buy one if money is a worry, they've a way to fall yet and running costs are high. The painful £515 tax bill hurts both up front and damages resale especially as it enters the lower price ranges. Dealer or genuine specialist history along with keeping the mileage below 80k is vital for resale.
2/ I found it shrinks around you on the road, feeling like a much smaller car but yes it is long and wide so parking will require care.
3/ The rear seats are next to useless. Not sure if a child seat will fit, they sit at a strange angle, possibly will but they're no use for adults. I sat in the back for a ten min journey and it was the most uncomfortable of my life. I had a friend who worked as an engineer for Jaguar when Ford owned them and he could sign out interesting cars on occasion when he popped home for a visit. The XK was the norm, lucky beggar.
4/ It's a traditional torque converter box instead of an automated manual and all the better for it. I never noticed any delay when rapidly pulling away, this is a feature on VAG DSG boxes to preserve the box apparently as full power standing starts put the greatest pressure on the internals.
5/ The 4.2 is a well sorted engine by the time the second gen cars came along but the 5.0 is notably more powerful with 385bhp instead of 300 and is very slightly better on fuel. Depending on budget I'd buy on mileage, condition and history first but all things equal the 5.0 is better and pretty much matches the supercharged 4.2 XKR for horsepower but not torque yet misses out on the added reliability issues from the supercharger installation. Though in Jags these are generally pretty robust.
I get the midlife crisis desire for heavy metal like this but don't buy it if you can't afford the huge servicing costs and that £515 tax bill. One of these will drain your wallet in a way that an Audi TT would never. Boy racer style charging away from traffic lights and roundabouts will see sub 15mpg economy too. But they are glorious things and buy it right, look after it properly and depreciation shouldn't be crippling at this stage, just don't be expecting it to be depreciation free. You will see it drop notably unless you buy a first gen car which are now heading North if low mileage and in spotless condition.
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Very helpful thank you.
1) How long will it take for a XKR to go from 20k (price for a decent mileage 4.2XKR atm) to 8k do you think? I assumed car depreciation after the initial nearly-new drop is around £1500 a year. So you reckon 8 years before it hits 8k and begins to rise? But my 1.5k a year may be inaccurate....
2) Thanks
3) Lucky guy! Thanks
4) Oh ok that's interesting. Surprising then that it's so quick despite not being a VAG-type twin clutch DSG which zips from gear to gear with no effort! Still, I don't uderstand the mechanics of it to be honest, but if it means I can pull away the instant I want to, like a manual then that sounds very cool.
5) Apologies I don't think I made myself clear here: I'm only interested in XKR so was wondering how the 4.2 XKR compares with the 5.0 XKR. Also the XKRSs.
Service costs: I understand service costs are only around 400-800 per year. Sure some things will add to that, but do you have any idea what the average extra costs will be. I thought these Jags aren't as unreliable anymore.
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1/ It's difficult to predict depreciation rates especially when the second gen cars are all saddled with the £515 tax rate which pre 06 cars do not plus the first gen cars are regarded as a better piece of design styling wise even if the later model is more robust and nicer to drive so they may take longer to bottom out.
Alternately the high tax and general running costs may put off marginal owners who won't maintain the cars properly which is a big factor in damaging the image and thus values of particular luxury and performance cars. Large BMW's and Mercs being fine examples, they collapse in value as they enter limbo land with owners who can't really afford them.
As an estimate I'd say that if you spend £20k on a nice R with a sub 50k mileage and a full dealer history and kept it spotless and maintained that costly dealer history then offloaded after 3yrs and 15,000 miles I'd expect you to lose £8-£10k when you trade it in less if you take the risk and hassle of selling it yourself. It'll be a nightmare with one of these though, sifting through the dreamers and test pilots.
5/ I haven't driven an R but the addition of a belt driven supercharger massively increases low speed torque so either will be pretty explosive from the off but the difference between the 4.2 and 5.0 isn't relevant if you intend on spending around £20k as you won't get a good 5.0 for anything near this. For comparison sake though the 4.2 has 420bhp and the 5.0 has 503.
As for servicing the main dealers do a 3 and over discount scheme for cars over 3yrs of age so dealer servicing isn't that horrific on its own. Approx £230 for a minor service and £300 for a major but some manufacturer parts will be pricey as will tyres and brakes plus the supercharger belt needs changed at 7yrs if memory serves so make sure it has been done. Forget any without a full history, I can't stress this enough although these are reliable they need fresh oil every year to stay healthy and to retain value.
I'd love to be in the position to get one myself but it'll be years before I'm allowed to buy another toy.
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Thanks - that's quite some depreciation! Might have to rethink it then and go for a Vantage that I understand retains value much better when looked after.
Yeah you're right I'd never touch one without full history.
I could spend more on a 5.0, it's just 4.2s are aroudn 20k at the mo. 5.0s are probably another 5-8k I expect.
I may not be in a position myself, as my wife seems to think me remortgaging my own house means I can't use my money from my remortgaged house to buy myself a car. Hopefully a nice Jag or AM will convince her otherwise. Or I could look for a nice pink one.... :)
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Bang for your buck and in a relatively rare car you'll struggle to beat Mustang, simpler car too.
Delivered hundreds of XK's, not as bad as the XJS before but you still need to shoe horn yourself in to some extent and are sitting on the floor so to speak, you need a big space to get those massive doors open, but large doors are always a compromise on 2 door models, even a Pug 308cc is a nightmare to get in and out of if you're a larger chap no longer in the suppleness of youth, i couldn't live with one.
Where the Mustang may prove a wise choice is (apart from obvious RHD differences) you can source parts from the importers of parts for the US car following here, or indeed buy parts direct from the USA as and when needed, that alone could be a big saving, and if you look after it depreciation will be slow.
The problem with traffic light spring racing is that it's very hard on cars, something will break in time, the more grip the car has (eg 4WD) the more likely something is to break because the drive line has no safety fuse, those which allow wheelspin are less likely to break.
Might be interesting to do some research and price up maintenance costs for the cars you want, not just normal servicing but some typical parts, headlight bulb and ballast, headlight, front and rear led assembly (some of these are scandalous), brake discs and pads, wheel bearing, clutch if manual, exchange or new gearbox propshaft diff and rear half shaft (i mention drive line because they are likely contenders if racing off the line) set of shockers, front wishbone assembly.
grr this stupid stupid overzealous swear filter, doesn't like the word 'drive line' shortening to one word, we are not snowflakes here.
Edited by gordonbennet on 09/04/2017 at 08:53
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Another thought here if the Mustang is a bit lairy, have you considered a large hybrid Lexus, 450h etc, with the two power sources combined at full throttle these will give a Porsche a run for its money, yet refined and relatively good on fuel, especially in town.
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Something else you may want to consider depending on upper limit of budget. Especially coming from a TT, an R8. Looking on autotrader at cars up to 50k miles they seem to kick off about £40, maybe just under.
Also, if you really wanted to push the boat out scratching your 'power' itch, currently on autotrader there are 4 merc SL63's ('08-'10) ranging from £34k-£35k, all with up to 50k miles and all packing 525bhp(!).
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If you want to join the AM club,I suggest you check out parts prices.They can be horrendously expensive,even service items.my choice would be the Jag.far superior build quality,with extensive parts availability.
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Hmm ok.. I'm finding it very hard to work out what the average yearly cost is for upkeep, on top of a standard service.
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Don't get me started! I adore the R8 to bits. The look is unreal and my guess is the prices will shoot up at some point. Never seen a car so damned gorgeous, futuristic. Puts Lambos and BUgattis to shame. A true piece of art, fast, will go up in price, ticks all the boxes. EXCEPT. It's just too bling. I'd look like some rich kid and the sorts of places I drive it's just not fair on people me driving around in something like that. It's not understated enough and so I'd feel thoroughly uncomfortable in it. That, and very impractical for daily use.
I like those Merc cars yeah, but not enough to accept it only having 2 seats. Useless as my TT and the Jag's 2 seats are, they're good at least for using as a storage shelf. The vantage at least has a storage sheld instead fo example. And it's such a beast of a car that I'll make exceptions fot Aston Martin but not for Merc.
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Thanks. I'm not too keen on the aesthetics though.
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THanks.
That's strange I didn't know you could get those mustangs here. Always adored those beasts when visiting the USA. For a sub 5s 0-60 one we're talking early 30s I think and for a car that's quite an unknown quantity I'm not sure. Would rather stick to what's tried and tested and known high qiality, especially as seem extremely cheap for what they are!
Traffic light driving - yeah I get what you're saying. I don't really want to do that so much all the time but with a manual you just keep it ready and shoot immediately. With my Audi TT there's enoguh of a lag to make useless for an immediate start when it matters (trafifc lights, pulling into/out of a road etc) - this has proven to be a little unsafe at worst, humiating at best, on my TT.
Research ueah I've been trying to. I've called Jag and AM and asked the and they just say what the service charge is and assume nothign else goes wrong. I've looked and looked but can't seem to find accurate likely figures, except I know a Vantage's clutch will go around 40k. miles.
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Another suggestion, given the need for usable rear seats, is the Maserati Granturismo. As far as cool badges go, personally i'd say cooler than Aston Martin, which is getting a bit obvious these days. Drop dead gorgeous styling, a ferrari V8, and certainly going by what i have read, properly usable rear seats. A big heavy car though, and not overburdened with torque, so doesnt feel quite as fast as you might expect. The automated manual gearbox of the earlier cars (this was replaced with a proper torque converter auto in post 2012 cars) is not that great to use around town, but hey ho!.
Final suggestion is the Bentley Continental GT. £25k would get you into a 6.0 (552 bhp) version with up to 50k miles. Not everyones cup of tea, but very, very fast, no nannying speed limiter like the Germans, so 200mph top speed!. Also, 4wd and rear seats which, though not especially roomy, are usable.
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Not into the Bentley thanks but wow that Maz looks good! More comparable to the DB9 I guess sizewise.
Prices seem a little higher than Vantage so funds may be a slight issue btu maybe not. I like that the Vantage is quite compact though, coming from a TT.
Yeah thanks will look at depreciation/appreciation and hzve a think....
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Research ueah I've been trying to. I've called Jag and AM and asked the and they just say what the service charge is and assume nothign else goes wrong. I've looked and looked but can't seem to find accurate likely figures, except I know a Vantage's clutch will go around 40k. miles.
The dealer is going to do a Bafta award winning display of incredulity that anything would ever fail on their product and your only cost a service once every 2 years whether it needs it or not, Pinnochio might well have trained behind a service desk.
The only way you're going to find the truth about parts and the usual failures is to log onto make specific owners motoring forums covering cars like the ones you are interested in and do your own research, it will take days of reading, but time well spent.
I learned somewhere that later XF front led indicators for example, when the fail, which they do, means a new headlight assembly which is well into 4 figures, i dread to think what an Aston, if it has similarly ridiculous toytown lights, will be a hell of a lot more, don't ask me what was wrong with a 21w orange bulb, i come from an era where common sense still ruled and intend to stay in common sense land for as long as one can.
Ah yes BBD, Bentley, on another forum i discovered that a failed starter motor requires the whole engine to be lifted out and half one side of the lump dismantled further still to gain access, brilliant design chaps have a gold star, apparently a failed head gasket will set you back a cool £10k at the dealer, which is quite believable @ £250 an hour labour.
Edited by gordonbennet on 09/04/2017 at 22:33
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Ouch!!!
May go the M3 route after all with all these fancy cars being so expensive. Iknow BMWs can be expensive but hoepfully nothing that crazy!
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