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Tue 14 Feb 2017 13:21

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - KP64

Received a NIP for 37 in a 30. I am RK but wasn't driving. Probably was wife but possibly daughter. I asked for photos and location details. Photos received only show back so no help. Location details provided by email show pdf map of road with arrow to one side. The email says this is the exact location of the van. The road is used frequently by all of us. The arrow corresponds exactly to a layby, when driving by it I noticed the view was completely different from police photo. Can tell the side of the road so direction of travel in relation to layby as white lines appear in police photo. I stated twice in emails the location was wrong and we were still unsure of driver. Also said their incorrect details were making it harder to identify as we the location advised is unreliable, direction of travel is unknown due to incorrect info meaning we cannot identify direction/destination of journey. No response to this point received so at 26 days I sent back NIP "can't identify", sent covering letter with photos/google maps/streetview proving their exact location is wrong and that it had made it harder to identify. Also said without location issue may have identified a driver to bring matter to close. Now I have sent it I am constantly nervous due to potential 6 points and large cost vs 3 and speed aware course. None of us have prev offences or court appearances. I keep trawling web but I would like advice on where I stand/ likely next step. Are they likely to drop this - wife not happy it may proceed to court. Pope v Clarke seems to help as we were misled by Police info (albeit not on NIP). I feel I can win in court but don't want it to go there really. I fail to understand why they couldn't clarify location and believe them providing wrong info is an obstruction to my steps to identify. I also gave them some details of the other steps checked, texts, emails etc but really hard to be sure of driver if we don't know where we were going and for what reason due to incorrect info from police. Any help appreciated.

Edited by KP64 on 14/02/2017 at 13:33

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 13:46

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - RobJP

The police have done all they can reasonably be required to do.

They have provided you with the rough location, time and date of the offence.

It is not up to them to provide you with the location to the inch, or to confirm the direction of travel.

You either can or cannot identify the driver. If you cannot then the police will review the matter and decide whether it is 'in the public interest' to prosecute the registered keeper (you) for failing to identify the driver. You will then have the opportunity to defend your actions in court.

If it does go to court, being 'petty' regarding the EXACT location or direction of travel will not help you.

Edited by RobJP on 14/02/2017 at 13:46

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:00

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - KP64

"The police have done all they can reasonably be required to do"

Thanks for reply, but not sure I agree with this bit. If they had refused to provide further info I agree but I would have thought providing incorrect info is different.

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:03

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - RobJP

"The police have done all they can reasonably be required to do"

Thanks for reply, but not sure I agree with this bit. If they had refused to provide further info I agree but I would have thought providing incorrect info is different.

If you're so sure you are in the right, and they are in the wrong, then let it go to court.

Do please come back on here afterwards and tell us the number of points and how big the fine was.

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:12

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - KP64

I'm honestly not trying to be dogmatic. I don't think it's reasonable for the police to make such a mistake but I'm completely unsure of how the courts treat these things. I did say "not sure I agree with this" not that you were wrong.

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:21

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - RT

Step back for a moment and look at the big picture - a member of your family was photo'd speeding - that's £100 plus either a Speed Awareness Course or 3 points, depending on who and their record.

By prevaricating, you, personally will get a bigger fine plus victim surcharge plus 6 points.

Your family has a duty to know who was driving which vehicle when so the time alone should be enough for you to work it out.

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:23

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - RobJP

The law is quite clear. All the police have to do is provide you with 'adequate information' to enable you to identify the driver.

Time. Date. Confirmation (by photo) that it is the correct vehicle. Rough location.

The rest is up to you.

If you really feel you have a reasonable defence, then I'd suggest you speak to a solicitor. Which you really should have done PRIOR to returning the NIP.

In most cases, the time of day, along with the date/day of the week, and roughly where the offence took place, would be sufficient to identify the driver.

The police are likely to take your failure to identify as deliberate, and attempting to 'get away with it', and prosecute accordingly.

It will be then up to you, in a courtroom and under oath (remember, Perjury is an imprisonable offence) to show that you have taken 'all reasonable steps' to identify the driver at the time.

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:55

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - KP64

I have spoken to someone at the camera unit. I explained the situation whereby we felt they had made a mistake which wasn't helping us to move to a position whereby we were more than 85 or 90% sure who was driving, but we really didn't want to proceed to court.

He was extremely reasonable and said they would re-issue the NIP to allow us to re-submit to identify and will also review my correspondence to check whether they have made a mistake that he feels would lead to no further action.

I was surprised they woud go to these lengths and hope he now comes up with the goods.

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:55

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - Brit_in_Germany

Could you respond by stating that if the vehicle was travelling in direction X it was driven by Ms Y and if in direction -X, was driven by Mrs. Y?

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 14:58

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - KP64

Brit-in-Germany, exactly one of the points that was causing us an issue, but the fact I'm getting grief from her indoors and broken sleep means sometime discretion is the better part of valour, hence my tail between legs call above

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Tue 14 Feb 2017 15:00

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - FP

"Also said without location issue may have identified a driver to bring matter to close."

Oh dear - and you have put this in writing? That is virtually saying you could/would have identified the driver (for whatever reason), but was being b*****-minded because the police got the details wrong.

It doesn't look good, does it?

Presumably it is likely a NIP for failure to identify will follow. (Maximum penalty £1000 fine plus six points.) And the original (speeding) offence still stands.

Edit: since drafting this I see further events have overtaken the original situation.

Edited by FP on 14/02/2017 at 15:03

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Wed 22 Feb 2017 13:31

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - Gibbo_Wirral

Did any of the drivers have an Android phone with them? Google logs all locations when your phone is on:

www.google.com/maps/timeline?pb

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Fri 24 Feb 2017 15:24

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - Middleman

Just as a point of order, your family does not have a duty to know who was driving at all times. The duty to identify the driver (using due diligence) falls on the Registered Keeper (or the person keeping the vehicle, if different) only once the request for information is made.

Whilst it is an offence to deliberately name a person you know was not driving, it is acceptable to name the person most likely to have been driving. In your case if you eventually do need to nominate a driver I would suggest this is the most pragmatic course of action. For 37 in a 30 the driver will be offered a speed awareness course provided they have not done one in the last three years. Infinitely preferable to a hefty fine, six points and insurance grief for five years. Defending a S172 (Failure to provide driver’s details) is notoriously difficult and simply saying “Dunno who was driving because the police wouldn’t tell me the precise location” will not cut the mustard.

Edited by Middleman on 24/02/2017 at 15:25

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Sat 25 Feb 2017 01:29

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - FP

"For 37 in a 30 the driver will be offered a speed awareness course provided they have not done one in the last three years."

No. The offer is at the police's discretion. It is not automatic and it is not a right.

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Sat 25 Feb 2017 08:43

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - RT

"For 37 in a 30 the driver will be offered a speed awareness course provided they have not done one in the last three years."

No. The offer is at the police's discretion. It is not automatic and it is not a right.

Correct - 37 in a 30 is within ACPO guidelines for offering a SAC - ACPO doesn't apply in Scotland - not all forces in England/Wales use the guidelines, some of those who do only partially use them - and even for forces which do use them, it's is at their discretion as you say.

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Sat 25 Feb 2017 17:56

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - Middleman

Indeed it is discretionary and I might have said "...Should be offered". However, in England & Wales it would be most unusual for a driver not to be offered a course for speeds up to (Limit + 10% +9mph). As far as I am aware all forces now participate in the national scheme except Dorset.

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Sat 25 Feb 2017 22:23

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - FP

I wasn't, a few years ago.

46 mph in a 40 zone. Northamptonshire.

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Sun 26 Feb 2017 13:27

NIP cannot identify driver and location issue - Middleman

I wasn't, a few years ago.

46 mph in a 40 zone. Northamptonshire.

Well Northamptonshire do participate now:

www.northants.police.uk/sites/default/files/NSAC-T...f

In fact, i've been looking through a few E&W police websites at random and I cannot find one which suggests they do not offer Speed Awareness Course in accordance with the ACPO guidelines. So as I said, it would be unusual for a driver who meets the criteria not to be offered a course.

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