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Sat 13 Aug 2016 14:28

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Metropolis.

I understand this topic has two schools of thought, so i'm interested to hear your views. Applies to traditional autos.

When you have to stop for a couple of minutes at a junction, general traffic etc, do you put your car into N or just leave it in D and hold the brake?

I had always thought that it did more wear to switch an autobox in and out of D than to simply hold the brake with it in D, seeing as the torque converter can slip almost infinitely without additional wear unlike a normal clutch. Or would this result in too much heat buildup and wear it out that way?

This is assuming the car is stopped for a max of about 2 minutes.

Having recently driven someone elses auto and told to put it into N at junctions, I thought maybe you guys could settle the debate!

Cheers, PCharlton

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 16:04

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - RT

Depends what you're trying to minimise - fuel consumption will marginally improve if you select neutral - heat build-up shouldn't be a problem as it shouldn't be that marginal - there's no wear changing from D to N but a marginal amount changing N to D.

Frankly it's more about the perennial argument about whether to continue to "dazzle" the driver behind by continued use of the brake lights rather than minimising costs/wear.

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 17:09

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - phil_z70

Don't know if there is a correct answer to this, I totally agree about the brake lights

I do shift mine from D to N though I find mine idles a touch smoother (11 years old diesel)

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 17:35

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - NARU

I always left it in D.

My torque convertor auto comes with autohold (keeps the brakes on whilst waiting at a junction), and with ISG (cuts the engine). Both work with the car still in D somehow. So I leave it in D.

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 17:50

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Vitesse6

Brake lights aren't a problem if you put the handbrake on. Sadly a lot of people can't be bothered and prefer to dazzle the person behind.

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:02

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Ethan Edwards

Tc autobox can be left in D but probably better to leave in N.

My wife's car is the Auto Aygo. It's not a proper auto being a mechanised manual. MMT? That absolutely has to be put into N when stopped or it wears the clutch prematurely.

The sales people don't tell you that.

Another thing they don't tell you is replacement clutches cost a shed load as the mechanism has to be reset using specialist main dealer equipment. Thank god for the owners Internet forum.

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 18:29

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - RT

Brake lights aren't a problem if you put the handbrake on. Sadly a lot of people can't be bothered and prefer to dazzle the person behind.

Not all drivers are dazzled even those who need glasses to drive.

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 19:37

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - madf

I drive properly , put the handbrake on..

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Sat 13 Aug 2016 19:51

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - John F

Always slip into N and coast to lights, sometimes P, occasionally stop engine. Hardly ever hold foot brake (dazzles, uses unnecessary electricity/fuel, shortens bulb life).

Edited by John F on 13/08/2016 at 20:04

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Sun 14 Aug 2016 12:50

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Vitesse6

I wear glasses and find it unpleasant to sit behind someone with brake lights on just because they are too idle to pull the handbrake on.

It is just bad manners and a lack of consideration for other road users.

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Sun 14 Aug 2016 12:09

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - craig-pd130

A couple of years back I rented an Interceptor for a weekend, and that definitely needed putting into neutral at a standstill: even at idle that 440cui motor generates a good-sized chunk of torque. Needed a firm foot on the brake to stop it creeping, and the handbrake wasn't up to the job of holding it. Actually, 'creeping' isn't the word, as soon as you released the brakes the car would be moving at a brisk walking pace in D.

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Sun 14 Aug 2016 12:37

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - gordonbennet

Excessive creep used to be a regular problem with manual choked RWD automatics.

Snow or ice under the tyres you soon got used to selecting N as you approached a junction, mk3 Zodiac had drum rear brakes, if left in Drive you could be applying the brakes on packed snow yet actually not slowing at all because creep would overpower the effort of the rear drums under the gentle braking required for such conditions, even had the front brakes locked but still not slowing up.

Kept you on your toes.

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Sun 14 Aug 2016 14:33

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Metropolis.

Thanks for all the responses. To be honest, my primary concern is longevity of the gearbox. MPG isn't a concern and older cars tend not to have such bright lights. Newer ones practically burn my eyes! On this basis I'll be leaving it in D unless its someone elses car and they ask me not to, or I'm stopped for longer than a couple of minutes.

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Sun 14 Aug 2016 18:47

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - John F

Thanks for all the responses. To be honest, my primary concern is longevity of the gearbox.

You need have no worries - they are designed to accommodate those of us who have an economical 'pulse and glide' driving habit, which (curiously) although well known in flat/cheap gas USA is hardly ever promoted on our hilly/expensive petrol A and B roads where one can easily beat a manual's economy by artfully snicking between D and N.

No doubt this will generate some antediluvian advice that it is 'unsafe' and 'lacks control'.....

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Mon 15 Aug 2016 11:22

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Bracket

The old 'slushbox' torque convertor autos could sit in traffic all day with the engine idling in D. All they are doing at low revs is swilling the ATF around.

Some say that you'll cause more wear in the linkage and gear-box clutches by shifting into N and back to D repeatedly.

But I have no evidence to back up either theory.

The 'antediluvian' theories about whether coasting in neutral is safe or not seems to generate more controversy.

In the UK it's frowned upon by the official driving bodies, police trainers, and driving instructors, and will result in a Driving Test fail for lack of control. However, many older drivers over here still use coasting in the belief that it saves fuel.

What coasting does do is; remove engine braking, affect vehicle stability on curves, increase reaction times, and reduce the ability of the driver to correct over/understeer with throttle control.

In traffic it causes 'bunching', and the lack of brake lights when slowing would not be appreciated. UK roads are very different to those in the USA though.

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Mon 15 Aug 2016 11:52

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - KB.

If I was honest about what I thought about drivers sitting for more than a few moments with their foot planted on the brake pedal I'd be hauled across the coals for overt impoliteness.

Obviously I don't know if they also have the other foot on the clutch or where their gear lever/selector is positioned.

I was always instructed that a car held in gear (manual or auto.) on the footbrake with the clutch down (if applicable) and in gear was a lot more likely to shoot forward and hit the vehicle in front if rear ended. Never mind the glare behind or the wear on the clutch thrust bearing or any wear as might occur to an auto. box (re. the latter I honestly don't know if it does or doesn't).

But, I'm clearly very much in the minority...by a measure of at least ten to one, I'd guess. So everyone else would be right and I'd be wrong if a vote was taken.

And no-one would be surprised to know I don't coast in neutral for the final how ever many yards /metres.

Nor do I let the handbrake click on the way up...i.e. button pressed in.

I await the inevitable abuse with a tin hat suitably in place.

:-)

Edited by KB. on 15/08/2016 at 11:58

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Tue 16 Aug 2016 07:46

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - NARU

If I was honest about what I thought about drivers sitting for more than a few moments with their foot planted on the brake pedal I'd be hauled across the coals for overt impoliteness...

The 'autohold' on my new car keeps the brakes on when I come to a stop, allowing me to take my foot off the brake pedal. Unfortunately the brake lights stay on - I'd prefer they didn't in town traffic, but can understand the designer going for the 'safe' option. Its even clever enough to apply the brakes more soundly on a hill.

To following cars it will appear that I've just been sitting on the brakes. WHich I have, but that is an automated function.

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Mon 15 Aug 2016 12:21

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - gordonbennet

The 'antediluvian' theories about whether coasting in neutral is safe or not seems to generate more controversy.
What coasting does do is; remove engine braking, affect vehicle stability on curves, increase reaction times, and reduce the ability of the driver to correct over/understeer with throttle control

The irony being that engine/exhaust brake/retarder braking is not longer taught to new lorry drivers (despite maker spending £millions so equipping their vehicles) and new drivers are taught to stay in the same high gear approaching a junction/whatever and only change down when about to go under power again.

For all the retardation use a lorry being in top gear is it might as well be in neutral, indeed the latest eco roll systems actually put the vehicle into coast mode on the open road.

Confused?, no more than i am, either coasting is now acceptable or it isn't, not as you'll ever find me coasting as such, did back in the days of 'Irish overdrive' though where a lorry might well have been flat out at 40odd mph and IO was used to take advantage of the hills.

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Mon 15 Aug 2016 14:45

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - craig-pd130

you'll ever find me coasting as such, did back in the days of 'Irish overdrive' though where a lorry might well have been flat out at 40odd mph and IO was used to take advantage of the hills.

Haha, a friend of mine from Wigan calls it 'Scotch 5th', just to show regional variations on the theme :-D

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Mon 15 Aug 2016 16:17

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - John F

All they are doing at low revs is swilling the ATF around.

And using fuel to heat it up.

However, many older drivers over here still use coasting in the belief that it saves fuel.

Knowledge, not belief. I, supported by one or two others, argued this out in a thread Aug 2010 when I took issue with HJ who thought otherwise. (search on 'coasting', all dates)

.. affect vehicle stability on curves, increase reaction times

Really? How does coasting materially alter either stability or the workings of the human central nervous system?

In traffic it causes 'bunching', and the lack of brake lights when slowing would not be appreciated.

Again, I don't understand this. You get more 'slowing' when in gear than when coasting.

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Mon 15 Aug 2016 15:12

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Cyd

When I did my advanced driving (many years ago now) in an SD1 V8 auto, I was taught to slip the car into N when stopped unless the stop was likely to only be momentary or you were waiting to pull out.

The safety “lecture” was along the lines of what if a pedestrian were crossing in front of you and your brakes chose that exact moment to fail?

The question became moot for me as I converted the car to manual soon after and have never owned another auto since.

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 15:55

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - expat

I am in Australia. 80% of cars sold here are autos and when you are stopped at the lights everyone has their brake lights on because everyone has left their auto in D. I have had TC auto boxes on my cars for many years and leaving it in D at the lights has never caused me any trouble. Nor have I been dazzled by the car in front brake lights. Perhaps it is the dimmer sunlight in the UK that makes the brake lights appear brighter.

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 16:40

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - RT

I am in Australia. 80% of cars sold here are autos and when you are stopped at the lights everyone has their brake lights on because everyone has left their auto in D. I have had TC auto boxes on my cars for many years and leaving it in D at the lights has never caused me any trouble. Nor have I been dazzled by the car in front brake lights. Perhaps it is the dimmer sunlight in the UK that makes the brake lights appear brighter.

It's the water on the roads reflecting light from everywhere!

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 17:04

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - madf

I am in Australia. 80% of cars sold here are autos and when you are stopped at the lights everyone has their brake lights on because everyone has left their auto in D. I have had TC auto boxes on my cars for many years and leaving it in D at the lights has never caused me any trouble. Nor have I been dazzled by the car in front brake lights. Perhaps it is the dimmer sunlight in the UK that makes the brake lights appear brighter.

It's the drivers who have failing vision and need glasses that are the problem.

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 18:44

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - galileo

I am in Australia. 80% of cars sold here are autos and when you are stopped at the lights everyone has their brake lights on because everyone has left their auto in D. I have had TC auto boxes on my cars for many years and leaving it in D at the lights has never caused me any trouble. Nor have I been dazzled by the car in front brake lights. Perhaps it is the dimmer sunlight in the UK that makes the brake lights appear brighter.

It's the drivers who have failing vision and need glasses that are the problem.

Glasses do not help if the wearer has early stage cataracts (which affect many over 60s and even younger drivers).

Current NHS waiting times for cataract operations can be several months, weren't too bad when I had mine done.

The condition may be so slight normal vision is good but bright lights do cause unpleasant dazzle. If you live long enough you will probably find out.

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 19:44

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - KB.

I am in Australia. 80% of cars sold here are autos and when you are stopped at the lights everyone has their brake lights on because everyone has left their auto in D. I have had TC auto boxes on my cars for many years and leaving it in D at the lights has never caused me any trouble. Nor have I been dazzled by the car in front brake lights. Perhaps it is the dimmer sunlight in the UK that makes the brake lights appear brighter.

It's the drivers who have failing vision and need glasses that are the problem.

No, the problem isn't "drivers who need glasses". It's the drivers who can't be bothered to use their handbrake and are happy to allow the brake lights to remain on irrespective of any discomfort it may, or may not, cause fellow road users.

I'm guessing you don't wear glasses? But would speculate your views will be different as and when your own acuity loses it's youthful accuracy .... or would you advocate that as soon as a drivers vision deteriorates to the degree that correction is required then they be taken off the road to leave room for those saintly and immortal beings blessed with 20/20 vision?

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 21:41

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - hillman

Don't be misled, there are situations where it's deadly to 'save fuel' by running the car in neutral. There was a court case reported in the newspaper a couple of days ago where a young man did just that. He lost control and had an accident, which killed three of his passengers.

The mantra, "Brakes to stop, gears to go" might also lead to serious consequences. I was in a convoy going down a steep and long hill today and the car in front of me had his brake lights showing all the way down. I seek the advice of experienced BRs here: do modern brakes fade ? At least the discs would be red hot. The road signs were clear, "LOW GEAR NOW" and further down the hill, "KEEP IN LOW GEAR".

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Wed 17 Aug 2016 22:25

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - gordonbennet

The mantra, "Brakes to stop, gears to go" might also lead to serious consequences.

Most modern vehicles the brakes are more than adequate to stop the vehicle in most normal eventualities, even on long descents.

I would suggest that most modern cars could be driven on the brakes to slow gears to go method for ever and come to no harm save fairly heavy friction material wear, not ideal and really no need to abuse a vehicle like this, but correct driving with control of the vehicle paramount is no longer taught.

Where it gets trickier is with cars/vans towing heavy loads, but especially in lorry world.

Modern lorry brakes are a world apart from the things i drove when i first started out, self adjusting brakes made a world of difference, at one time we'd nip round the trailer with a 9/16 spanner to take up the slack adusters maybe once a fortnight or even weekly if you had small trailer wheels/drums and/or hard running, this is no longer needed.

Disc lorry brakes are good at dispersing heat, but driven normally in my honest opinion are no better than well maintained drums, indeed on my companies new tanker trailers we have gone back to drum brakes because the disc calipers are nothing but trouble.

The problem with heavy vehicles relying on the brakes on long downhill sections is that if something goes seriously wrong, then with the brakes already red hot you are in trouble...using gears and any available auxilliary braking so using the main brakes only minimally leaves them cold so if something does go wrong you have a lot more braking left in the bank so to speak.

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Thu 18 Aug 2016 07:33

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - madf

on and need glasses that are the problem.

No, the problem isn't "drivers who need glasses". It's the drivers who can't be bothered to use their handbrake and are happy to allow the brake lights to remain on irrespective of any discomfort it may, or may not, cause fellow road users.

I'm guessing you don't wear glasses? But would speculate your views will be different as and when your own acuity loses it's youthful accuracy .... or would you advocate that as soon as a drivers vision deteriorates to the degree that correction is required then they be taken off the road to leave room for those saintly and immortal beings blessed with 20/20 vision?

I wear glasses and from what I can see of many drivers who don't , they need them - badly.

And I don't just mean prescription lenses. Sunglasses make driving safer in sunny weather...

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Thu 18 Aug 2016 14:31

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - galileo

I wear glasses and from what I can see of many drivers who don't , they need them - badly.

And I don't just mean prescription lenses. Sunglasses make driving safer in sunny weather...

You have changed your argument, (possibly in self defence?) the original issue was brake light dazzle, not vision in general.

It isn't feasible to wear sunglasses at night, which is when brake light dazzle is the worst problem.

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Thu 25 Aug 2016 10:17

Any - Torque converter autos-waiting at junctions etc - Metropolis.

Thanks again for responses. In light of what has been said with regards to levels of wear and tear i'll be leaving it in D for now.

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