Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago

Honest John Back Room » Motoring discussion
What is life like with your car? Let us know and win £500 in John Lewis vouchers | No thanks
View Threaded
Wed 23 Mar 2016 01:17
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - palaremzi
(I probably asked this question in the Ask John Section thinking I was writing it to the forum. Sorry for double-posting.)
About a week ago I bought a 2007 Honda CRV, mileage: 91K, from a local car sales shop. Yesterday the engine management light came on and having the car inspected at a local garage it appears there is a problem with the car's engine (code p2004: variable intake manifold system fault).
I understand that the Consumer Rights Act, as of Oct 2015, gives a right to reject the vehicle within 30 days of purchase for a full refund if it is not fit for purpose or it is not as described or if it is not of satisfactory quality. I feel my case fall within this scope.
The trader wants to repair the car but I want to return it for a full refund because I am sensing that the fault is indicative of more problems down in the line and I do not want to end up being stuck with a dodgy vehicle.
I wanted to get your opinion about how strong my case is and how best to proceed. In particular I am afraid that, assuming this goes to court, the judge might say that this is a used car and they are expected to develop problems like this and I should have accepted the dealer's offer of repairing the car. But on the other hand the new law gives me a right to return the car without having to go through repairs.

Edited by palaremzi on 23/03/2016 at 01:18

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 07:53
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - slkfanboy

It sounds like a common problem on those. There is a frequency soleniod valve that goes faulty. So replacing it may cure the issue and not a major issue.

I suspect it's worth letting them fix it. Always hard to know 100% but if everything else looks good.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 08:26
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - pd

Assuming you paid a proper retail price then I think the dealer should fix it but I really don't think an engine warning light is anywhere near enough to warrant a rejection.

It really has to be something significant on a car at this mileage - the headgasket goes, the gearbox goes pop, it is burning oil etc.

A vvt solenoid really isn't into that category and I think you're being unreasonable in expecting a refund for that.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 08:55
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - RobJP

As you have described, you do have the absolute right, in law, to reject the car and get a full refund under the CRA.

You can choose to accept a repair. However that choice is yours. Not the garage's choice.

If you are insistent on a rejection, then you must stop using the car immediately. Write a letter to the garage detailing your rejection, and stating that you will drop the car off with them in a couple of days, and that you expect to receive a full refund promptly once the car is returned.

Send it - by first class registered post. TODAY. So that they receive it tomorrow. (There is obviously a bank holiday 4 day weekend happening). Then, when you drop the car off (with all books, keys, etc), take a further copy of your rejection letter with you, along with the proof of delivery (which you will have downloaded and printed off from the Royal Mail website). Ideally record the actual rejection on phone, etc. Inform the garage that they will have 1 'working day' to make the full refund, after which you will proceed directly to court action, with no further reminders. (So if you take the car in on Saturday, then you really must give them until close of business on Tuesday to make the refund).

No refund by close of business on Tuesday ? Up to you, but I'd be phoning them up on Wednesday morning as I was on my way in to see a solicitor to ask for a court order sequestering their goods.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 10:15
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - catsdad
I am beginning to feel sorry for (some) car dealers. We need protection from rogues but if lots of people start rejecting cars that are easily repairable then all car buyers end up paying more to cover the risk. I am not commenting in the specific case here but we've seen a few threads on the wider topic of late.
I just bought a runabout from our son last month and even as a known car I've had to pay out for bump stops and cam cover oil gasket.
Fact is cars go wrong and if the dealer repairs it I'd generally accept repair rather than the hassle of finding another car.
I certainly would be very wary of recourse to law, whatever my rights, except as a last resort.
Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 10:24
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - scot22

I agree with catsdad. The dealer appears to want to have the chance to put things right. Presumably you did like the car in the first place so if this fault is dealt with then, to me, that's fine.

Catsdad's last sentence needs to considered carefully. I would avoid legal expenses if at all possible.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 11:00
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - RobJP

The person has asked about rejection. If a fault (of any sort) has developed within such a short period of time then they are right to be aggrieved - and right to be suspicious too.

It is quite likely that the fault has been present on the car previously, only to be deleted by the selling garage (or whoever in the trade they bought it off) in the hope that it won't come back on. Which says large amounts for their 'quality checks', or rather the complete lack of any such checks.

When I used to work part-time for a garage, we'd occasionally buy cars in BCA in Manchester, Preston or Brighouse. The cars would, after purchase, be checked over by ourselves in the car park (tyre pressures, fluid levels, etc), trade plates in, and then driven back to North Wales. That run, anything from 50 to 100 miles, would give plenty of opportunity for faults, etc. to present themselves, and to be fixed prior to the car going on sale.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 11:28
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - pd

As you have described, you do have the absolute right, in law, to reject the car and get a full refund under the CRA.

.

No - they do not. They have the right to reject if the car is not fit for purpose or unsatisafactory for the type of car.

An EML light because of a dodgy solenoid which means the variable timing might not be working optimially does not make it not fit for purpose and a minor fault such as this does not make a nearly 100k mile 9 years old car unsatisfactory either.

If the headgasket had gone, sure, but to keep posting that you can return any car of any age and mileage with minor faults is rubbish and maybe you'd like to underwrite the poster's legal costs and pay them when it all goes wrong?

It is a common fault and the valve is about £50. To reject a car for a £50 part is bonkers.

As for:

"Up to you, but I'd be phoning them up on Wednesday morning as I was on my way in to see a solicitor to ask for a court order sequestering their good"

Have you been drinking? You actually have to have won a case and been awarded something before you can do that which, in a case such as this, could take 6 months.

Edited by pd on 23/03/2016 at 11:31

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 11:53
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - scot22

This is a situation which is extremely difficult to comment on with complete confidence on a forum.

A question which interests me is - you say it is a local car dealer surely the dealer will have a reputation locally and you would know whether or not to trust him. An example of knowing when to avoid : I told a local car dealer I was looking for a 4 door petrol. He tried to influence me to buy a Saab 9-3 diesel. I will never go back.

Rob's point about deleting fault error is interesting. If it had been how long would you expect it to be before it reappeared ?

Finally, I appreciate I am not the moderator ( who does a difficult job very well), but having benefited from Rob's posts in the past I think the last question was unnecessary and unwarranted. Posts should be polite.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 12:12
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - pd

Finally, I appreciate I am not the moderator ( who does a difficult job very well), but having benefited from Rob's posts in the past I think the last question was unnecessary and unwarranted. Posts should be polite.

lt is a fair comment but when people post opinion as fact I do not think it in any way helps the OP. Taken at face value some of the advice above implies the OP could go all legal and they'd be onto a sure fire 100% winner and all would be happy in the end.

No one knows that. No one could say. It is just people's opinion. The act gives the buyer of a used car the "rights" to a used car. It gives the buyer of a new car the rights to a new car.

You do have the right to reject, but you do not have the right to reject because something used isn't as good as new.

If the OP went legal and the dealer said "no, we know our rights, you are being unreasonable" it could mean 6 months without a car, a lot of time, upfront cost with no guarentee of a good outcome. It is not helpful to the OP to imply that isn't the case.

My opinion, assuming what I reckon is wrong with it is the case, is that a warning light and a 9 year old jammed solenoid do not make the car unsatisfactory. That does not mean that if the OP pushed it they wouldn't win a case. It is my opinion - not fact. When people post on things like this all I am saying is that it would be better if they qualify such statements that they are just an opinion and they are not a judge looking at the case with all the facts in front of them.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 12:54
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - Gibbo_Wirral

The OP claims:

I want to return it for a full refund because I am sensing that the fault is indicative of more problems down in the line and I do not want to end up being stuck with a dodgy vehicle.

Do you have any evidence that there will be more problems down the line?

Is the service history not good?

Have you done research on the car and its known issues after buying which is now making you worry?

Its sounds to me like buyers remorse or buyers regret after a significant purchase. I've done it myself on a car.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 13:14
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - scot22

Thanks pd I appreciate the courtesy of your reply. I apologise if I sometimes come over a little pedantic ( after effects of having been a headteacher ! )

I completely agree with your views on legal action. I have seen cases of people losing considerable amounts of money even if successful. My late uncle was a solicitor and he advised me to avoid engaging solicitors if at all possible. As he pointed out solicitors only give 'advice'. You don't have to take it so very difficult to have any comeback if things go wrong.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 13:33
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - pd

The OP claims:

I want to return it for a full refund because I am sensing that the fault is indicative of more problems down in the line and I do not want to end up being stuck with a dodgy vehicle.

Do you have any evidence that there will be more problems down the line?

Is the service history not good?

Have you done research on the car and its known issues after buying which is now making you worry?

Its sounds to me like buyers remorse or buyers regret after a significant purchase. I've done it myself on a car.

Assuming it is a CDTi the code the OP states is almost certainly caused by the frequency soleniod valve. It is a very common thing to go on these - basically, if it hasn't gone yet, it will go at some point.

You can get them for about £50 from ebay or motor factors or about £100 in a Honda box from a Honda dealer. Labour charge should be about £25 to fit.

There is a Honda TSB for it and I think in some countries there was a recall but not in the UK.

If it is this, it is trivial, and no indication of further problems. It is pretty easy to see it as well so if the OP is worried whether the part has been fitted they can just look and verify it is all nice and shiny!

Edited by pd on 23/03/2016 at 13:38

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 15:14
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - Avant

Thank you for the compliment, Scot!

What we are entitled to do by law isn't always the same thing as what common sense suggests. The new legislation makes it easier for us to reject goods that are clearly not fit for purpose: but unless this is obviously the case, it makes sense to give the dealer one opportunity to fix it. If the fix doesn't work or reveals even more problems, then it's time to reject.

In this particular case I strongly suggest you give the dealer one chance to fix it, free of charge of course.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 15:43
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - oldroverboy.

From my own experience, I think it is entirely fair of the dealer to fix a minor fault on a 9-10 year old car.

From main Dealer and Honda themselves there would be absolutely no goodwill, and it would cost £200+ to fix in a Honda dealers.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 18:27
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - palaremzi

OP here.. Thank you for detailed responses, I appreciate it.

The car had one owner from new, and it has service stamps all the way from 2007 till 2015, which convinced me to buy the car in the first place.

I tried to search if there are any Small Claims cases (after Oct 2015) that would give an idea of how a judge would intepret the new law, especially for a used car, but could not find any.

I think I will have it repaired and keep the car. But if it keeps breaking down then am I right in assuming that I could return it, say within a year or so, because the trail of faults starts within the first 30 days. I think I came across a case where somebody was able to return a used car (or boat?) two years after the purchase because the faults started within two days and they never stopped popping up.

Edited by palaremzi on 23/03/2016 at 18:32

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 19:44
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - pd

But if it keeps breaking down then am I right in assuming that I could return it, say within a year or so, because the trail of faults starts within the first 30 days. I think I came across a case where somebody was able to return a used car (or boat?) two years after the purchase because the faults started within two days and they never stopped popping up.

If it is related to the fault then yes - but not anything unrelated. You're not going to be taking it back in 8 months time with a dodgy wheel bearing becasue the EML light came up in the 1st month.

You really are being a bit dramatic here. You didn't say it "broke down" you said the EML came on. This can happen. If it is as I suspect it is then it is a common fault pretty much every Accord, Civic or CR-V suffers from. The swirl flaps are operated by a vacuum servo which the diaphram perishes in and it can't hold a vacuum. The ECU sees the flaps are not moving where they request them to, store a code and bring up the EML.

You've bought a car nearer the end of its life than the beginning. Things will wear out, perish and break. You will, at some point, have to spend some money on it. That is part of the deal.

The good news is that CR-V's are generally pretty reliable and will probably cause less trouble than most similar cars at this age and mileage. Look on the bright side - it could be a BMW which digests the flaps and destroys the engine rather than just a servo which perishes!

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 22:04
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - palaremzi

You really are being a bit dramatic here. You didn't say it "broke down" you said the EML came on. This can happen. If it is as I suspect it is then it is a common fault pretty much every Accord, Civic or CR-V suffers from. The swirl flaps are operated by a vacuum servo which the diaphram perishes in and it can't hold a vacuum. The ECU sees the flaps are not moving where they request them to, store a code and bring up the EML.

The good news is that CR-V's are generally pretty reliable and will probably cause less trouble than most similar cars at this age and mileage. Look on the bright side - it could be a BMW which digests the flaps and destroys the engine rather than just a servo which perishes!

Yes, I gues I freaked out a bit. Thanks for the detailed info, did not know any of this.

Funny you mention BMW. We were considering a BMW X1 and this CRV, both rougly the same milage. The X1 was 6 years old.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Wed 23 Mar 2016 20:28
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - focussed

I don't have that experience with Honda dealers, main or otherwise. Usually if it's a known fault they will attempt to push a goodwill warranty claim through, even after the warranty has expired.

I had this with a 4 year old 7th generation civic when the window regulator went u/s, it was replaces foc when I took the car in for a service.

My last 8th generation civic developed a slipping clutch, a known problem, and was repaired in France by my local Honda dealer-new complete clutch and DMF - at 3 years old, just outside the warranty - at no cost to myself.

That's why I drive a Honda.

Reply | Report as offensive | Link
Tue 5 Apr 2016 02:42
Bought used car last week, engine light on two days ago - Warning

I am wondering, when these codes come up, is it possible to see the history?. Is there a log in the car's computer?. Can a dealer or previous owner wipe out error codes?

Reply | Report as offensive | Link