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EU in or out? - Wackyracer

Just wondering what people are thinking about the referendum. I will be voting to leave the EU.

EU in or out? - Avant

Not sure yet. My instinct is that we should stay in, because 40+ years of commercial interdependence could be too much of a risk to unravel.

But I need - we all do - to understand the issues before commttinmg ourselves one way or the other. The PM and the Government need to show us the positive benefits of staying in rather than trumpeting the dangers of leaving.

EU in or out? - RobJP

My wife is pretty certain she'll vote 'out'.

I'm like Avant - more information needed before I make my decision. I hope that the campaign will be run on the actual issues, rather than scaremongering and fact-twisting (by both sides !), but I very much doubt that will be the case.

EU in or out? - galileo

I've been in favour of getting out for years (didn't vote to join in 1975).

The EU has, among other irritations:

1) killed our fishing industry 2) prevented us deporting convicted terrorists and criminals (through rulings of EU courts) 3) burdened business with fatuous regulations (which Whitehall has then gold plated, making them even more burdensome) 4) taken away the right of our elected Parliament to make laws which matter, because EU laws and regulations from unelected bureaucrats override British laws.

Finally, once the hundreds of thousands of 'refugees' currently flooding into Greece are let in and given EU passports, unless we leave we can not stop them coming here to overload our already creaking public services, housing, roads and other infrastructure.

Every other country in Europe (apart from Belgium) has a lower density of poulation per square mile than the UK. If the Scottish Highlands and other mountainous regions are deducted, habitable areas are still smaller.

Does anyone think we have room for a few million more possibly unskilled workers and their dependents? There are still thousands unemployed here, thousands struggling to find housing, we can only pick who we want here if we get out and regain our sovereignty.

EU in or out? - Wackyracer

I would also like to see what are the benefits of staying in rather than all the 'negatives' of leaving.

Maybe it's just me but, when the EU is against us leaving. I can't help but think they need us more than we need them.

EU in or out? - FP

There seems to be a dearth of real, hard facts both about the benefits of staying and the consequences of leaving. Each side seems to think they can provide a clinching argument, but I don't think one exists. People will have to vote with their hearts.

However, it's worth remembering that "leaving" could mean a whole range of relationships with Europe, from having absolutely nothing to do with it (unlikely, in view of our geographical proximity) to having extensive trade agreements and other links - sporting, cultural and so on. The difference would be that these would not be framed within the protocols of the EU.

There have been arguments made about those who represent, or claim to represent, each side of the issue. For example, some say they could never be bedfellows with Farage and UKIP. To make this the criterion for a decision is idiotic, of course. It is not a party-political matter either.

Then there is the matter of Cameron's concessions. These are probably too insignificant in themselves to make much difference in the long term - no doubt to Cameron's chagrin. Doubt has been cast on whether they are water-tight and there is no guarantee that future legislation by the EU would not nullify any special status of the UK.

Despite claims by the "remain" camp that we have be in the EU in order to influence its evolution to our benefit, we have to remember the significance of the "European Project" - ever-closer union. That is exactly what Germany and France want - eventually. Logically that means political and economic union. Do the British want to be part of that, and as the Project moves forward, for how long could we expect to be in Europe but not part of it?

There are those who believe the EU is doomed anyway, with or without the UK. The strains of supporting the single currency have been huge, and at the heart of those problems is the cultural difference between member states. The mind-set of your average Greek is very different from the German-in-the-street and their attitudes towards rules, regulations, taxes, the work-ethic and so on are disparate.

The thing that gets me is the wastefulness of the institutions of the EU, the parliamentary expenses, the cost of the constant monthly re-location between Brussels and Strasbourg (once memorably described as “the farce of the EU travelling circus”), the lack of accountability and transparency, the incessant stream of often trivial bureaucratic regulations which no-one reads or understands.

It’s not as if I’m anti-Europe; I speak French reasonably well, and a bit of German. I’m a musician and music is one of those things that unites countries. I’m aware of the historical and cultural heritage we share with Europe. My wife is Polish. And yet…

It just seems to me that the EU has become some kind of weird monstrosity.

Edited by FP on 02/03/2016 at 16:54

EU in or out? - gordonbennet

I voted no in 75 and i shall be voting out this time, as will SWMBO.

I fear that we shall, despite all the rhetoric, be staying in one way or another, if we should dare to do not as we're told (and they haven't fixed enough votes to ensure an IN win) then i expect another pantomime negotiation, Boris will no doubt assist doing his best U turns, a quick renaming of the agreement, and another vote which will be IN...much the same as the Irish who had to vote again till they got it right.

May i humbly suggest the very last place to look for fair information is the state propaganda machine the BBC, i don't usually listen to Jeremy Vine but if anyone caught todays interview with the 93 year old RAF veteran who was asked to compare refugees he'd seen after the second world war, and the Calais jungle he'd visited...the very last item on the show, that propaganda broadcast was something our good friend Mr Goebbels would have been proud of, Vine doing himself proud leading the witness when the poor chap came off script, and the very last item of BBC broadcast i shall ever view or listen to.

Edited by gordonbennet on 02/03/2016 at 19:14

EU in or out? - galileo

Apart from the BBC and Cameron, look at the crew urging us to stay in:

Ken Clarke, Heseltine, now Mandelson, who receives £36000 a year from the EU to support it, lots of so called leading businessmen (also receiving some benefit from the EU).

Obama and others need to keep their noses out, what notice would they take of our advice about their affairs?

Don't get me started on the Scots fishes, Sturgeon and Salmon(d).

Cameron is also dangling the prospect of peerages for notable figures who'll publicly support him, barefaced bribery in my view. Also telling the civil servants to keep EU info from ministers in favour of leaving, which is totally wrong.

EU in or out? - likeweld

It's a tricky one, members of my family are expats and with the uncertainty over the pound it's hard to judge what to do. That's quite a selfish reasoning though. The pound could of course become stronger than ever but it could also become very weak, but I am no financial expert. The pound is very low at the moment, with spending a bit of my time in America that is not so good for me... Again, a selfish outlook and I know far too little about everything else.

The migrant issue is a tired one. We wouldn't have crippled services if we didn't bail out banks after the financial crisis and none of this would be a problem, only to people that have issues with colour.

Iceland is doing pretty fine by themselves, just relinquished all of their countries debt and jailed bankers. If only other countries could do the same.

EU in or out? - FoxyJukebox

If we come out-it will be a challenge. i fear the E.U. has made us soft. So much flaffing around with legislation on this and that, restrictive practices, employment law guidelines, Health and Safety in place of common sense, everything abdicated to Brussels bla bla bla ...I could go on...

The awful thing is , too many of us in this country have become used to it and might feel seriously uncomfortable with an "all change".

Thus, if- (a big if)- we can demonstrate energy, creativity,resilience and total commitment--then I am for an exit. It would be a wonderful one off opportunity.

EU in or out? - daveyjp

I am as yet undecided. One question I had was what happens if there is an out vote and found this which presents some of the issues which would need resolving.

cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf

I certainly think there needs to be far more information available to voters about the issues raised in the report.

As out may not mean out!

EU in or out? - scot22

I agree with all of the arguments posted in favour of leaving. A further reason today was the French Prime Minister warning of consequences if we dare to vote to leave.

For many years the French voted against us joining !

I am against additional layers of Government which I feel are a waste of time and money. Does anyone know (or care) who their M.E.P. is ? What do you hear about regarding any action in the EU parliament ?

After 40 years in the EU is life wonderful ? Ask steelworkers ? ask those depending on foodbanks ? There is not job security.

The EU is, in my opinion, a mess. It is fantasy to talk of state co-operation. Each one struggles to get best deal for themselves.

Let's take responsibility for our own decisions and decide what we think is best for our own country.

EU in or out? - jamie745

I think we can cut out most of this nonsense because it's really a very simple question at the end of the day;

Do you want Britain to be a free democratic state - like it was for hundreds of years until 1973 - or not? That really is all this comes down to.

Personally I want to live in a free democratic state where people we elect make the laws. As a member of the EU this is not possible. Fact.

Nobody needs to worry about trade, we buy too much from the EU to not have a free trade agreement within about forty seconds of leaving. In the modern world the 'threat to trade' argument is just hilarious. It may have had a place 40 years ago but not anymore.

The public are now very close to accepting that Britain cannot control immigration as an EU member - unlike a free independent democratic state which is entitled to control its immigration policy. That will probably be what wins it for the 'leave' side in the end.

The only downside to the situation so far is the individual politicians on the 'leave' side, some of whom aren't the most likeable of people; there's plenty of disabled people for example who will vote to stay in purely because Iain Duncan Smith says otherwise.

I can understand that but I feel this question should be above things like that because I feel the question of national democracy is bigger than that, unfortunately it probably won't be because the publics natural setting is to vote in self interest and to maintain status quo.

EU in or out? - scot22

We do need a like button.

Hopefully, this might be an occasion were scare tactics don't work. It used to be that politicians offered hope : it seems now messages appear to rely mainly on fear and needing to be protected.

EU in or out? - jamie745

The modern day political class is almost completely made up of career politicians benefitting in one way or another from EU membership. It's been very good for them and their legions of civil servants and assistants.

If EU membership had any more to it then politicians would make the positive case, but instead they resort to the 'without me, you'll be worse off' argument in a desperate bid to scare people into maintaining bureaucrats' bank balances.

What have we had in the past week? We've been told that if we pull out of the EU then all economic activity would cease, German cars would no longer be sold here, Wales would disappear into the sea, terrorists would reign supreme, the entire agricultural industry would end and we'd all be living in caves.

It's a major difference to the last time this issue was put to a vote in 1975. In the 70s France vetoed our EEC entry on multiple occasions, Ted Heath went to France on a mission to win friends and even when the referendum came, the Labour Party were for leaving - and Labour put EEC withdrawal in their manifestos right up to the mid-late 1980s. How times change.

Not everyone agrees on how to measure what a 'country' is and how many of them there are, but by most objective measure there's around 190 countries in the world. Only 27 of them are in the EU, the vast majority of the World does not hand its sovereignty to unelected foreigners and does not have to accept mass immigration with zero influence or control.

If you genuinely believe Britain cannot be trusted to be an independent free democratic state, if you believe we're better off being governed by foreigners we can't elect and can't remove then that's fine. Believe that and feel free to make the case for that, just don't hide behind fear tactics because you're too scared to say it.

EU in or out? - GBP1705

It's a definite out for me, For years the official accountants for the EU has refused to sign off the accounts as they could not account for where billions of euro's have gone !!!

Thats good enough for me to say lets have control over our own destiny

EU in or out? - jamie745

I would call that a side issue to be fair; I don't care if they can account for where it goes or not, I object to the fact it's gone anywhere in the first place.

I don't see why we need to pay Brussels £2 to spend £1 on whatever they like. We pay them roughly £50million every day and we get something like £30million back I believe - spent on what they want it spent on. Remember that the next time somebody mentions 'European funding.'

EU in or out? - Wackyracer

According to the fullfact website, we paid in £13bn last year and the EU paid us back £4bn in farmers subs and on poorer regions of the UK such as Wales.

couple this to the fact we are the 3rd largest contributors to the EU coffers and you can see why they don't want us to leave the EU.

EU in or out? - jamie745

I think the French President has done a great service to the 'leave' side with his comments this week. British people generally do not take well to being threatened by Johnny Foreigner so the fact the French President, the US, China & all sorts of other overseas big cheeses are threatening us with the 'consequences' of leaving bodes well for the leave side and those of us who want an independent democratic state.

I used to think the 'leave' side should get more airtime, but I've changed my mind. Just keep putting stuff like that on telly and more and more people will vote to leave.