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Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - spog69

Having read HJ views on driving automatics with left foot braking to maintain full control of the vehicle, I wondered how many of the recent headline stories of out of control cars may be caused by 'pedal confusion’. I found that all these well reported cases all involved automatics and all driven by 80+ year olds as it happens.

So pedal confusion panic could be a factor in all these cases (as could several other factors I admit) but instead of banning 80+ year olds from driving should we stop them driving autos or make left foot braking training compulsory (if that is even possible?)

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - oldroverboy.

So, should i stop driving automatics?

Did it in 1973 in a triumph 1500 auto, (i was 22 did it again in a 1983 ford capri auto, and various jaguars after that.

Personally I don't like autos, but some people like them.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - nailit

"should we stop them driving autos "

Yes let's stop manufacturing and ban auto's.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wackyracer

I don't like the idea of left foot braking, that is more likely to cause confusion than using a single foot for both pedals in my opinion.

Sure rally drivers do left foot braking but, they are without a doubt highly skilled drivers.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Squirrel tail

Surely, three pedals is more confusing than two !

I drive an auto these days and I am 73 years old. (My wife has an auto licence).

Only way you can really get into trouble is if you leave it in drive and accidentally press the accelerator when getting out.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - gordonbennet

I don't agree with left foot braking on a proper auto with a torque converter and infinitely variable application of power, mainly because there is no earthly reason to left foot brake.

I also abhor every single one of these automated manual and DSG type of boxes, mainly for the reason that the best way i can describe clutch take up balanced with throttle application (in a precarious starting off position when say colse manoeuvering or minor hill starting in traffic) is to imagine you operating the throttle and someone else operating the clutch, the result being a botch up.

I think someone who may not be as switched on as they once were is asking for trouble buying one of these contraptions, they are IMHO unfit for purpose for the average motorist, espacially when a bit of precise control is required.

I recall loading an Aldi of some sort (they hate this mispell:-), think it was a 2.0 litre turbo petrol A4, i had to drive it in really close under the deck frame of the car loaded above it, that meant slightly uphill and over a small wheelstop built into the deck, but having to stop within 2" of the other side of the chock...now to get multitronic to take up drive meant applying throttle, obviously, but to get it apply enough power to go over the chock meant entering the spool up revs for the turbo, so instantly the car wanted to surge forward...bear in mind if it goes more than 6" its going to rip the bonnet on the deck above.

This took me several attempts and i had to use LFB to prevent surge, but as soon as you touch the brakes on one of these things it cuts the power, so i'll let you imagine just how fraught this was, remember i'm supposed to be skilled at this after near on 20 years doing it...it did eventually work without damage but after probably 10 failed attempts with me flapping...

so imagine some older person who may not be a naturalised over time driver, who's been talked by some smarmer against their best interests into buying an automated manual (worse in every way than the Aldi in my tale) then trying to extracate themselves from an awkward parking spot having to bump over a kerb or similar but with no room to make an error, fraught indeed with potential for all sorts to go wrong.

Edited by gordonbennet on 15/02/2016 at 21:54

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - dimdip

Bradford's mind-numbingly numerous traffic lights have persuaded me that the next car will have (torque-converter) automatic transmission. I agree with wackyracer that left-foot braking might well make me more likely to make mistakes; afterall the right foot is well used to doing both jobs already.

Or is it something to do with the size of the pedals in automatics that causes confusion?

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - twitcherman

I suspect the problem is due to switching from manual to auto "to make it easier". They're OK until things start going wrong, then press "go" hard instead of "stop", without the "fuse" of the clutch to save them.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - John Boy

"I recall loading an Aldi of some sort (they hate this mispell:-)"

Nice one, GB!

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Ian_SW

Every automatic I've seen has a huge brake pedal and a normal sized accellerator. As only a very occasional driver of automatics, I have nearly stamped on the brake pedal very hard with my left (i.e. clutch) foot a few times, but can't see how it would be possible to do the same with the accellerator, which is in exactly the same place as a manual.

I think the problem could be older people who no longer have enough leg control/feeling/strength to operate the clutch switching to an automatic car very late in life. These people should probably really be giving up driving at that point (obviously a very hard decision) or possibly switching to a car with 'motability' type hand controls.

I can understand someone switching to an automatic for comfort reasons though, particularly if they do a lot of driving in stop-start traffic. If I still lived in London I would have switched to an auto by now and I'm only 36!

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - John Boy
I think the problem could be older people who no longer have enough leg control/feeling/strength to operate the clutch switching to an automatic car very late in life.

I'm in that category, but I don't follow your line of thinking. Unfortunately, neither do I have an alternative theory to put forward.

As it happens, I agree with HJ about using both feet, but I've tried it and it just didn't feel safe to me.

Prior to getting an automatic, I had a driving job where I used both types of gearbox. I could switch from one to the other without difficulty. The only problem was arriving home, having driven 3 different vehicles at work. If it was after dark, I would struggle to find the door handle to get out of my own car!

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - nick62

The elderly in rural areas really are at a disadvantage to anyone living in the city reagrding transport options.

Maybe older folk would give-up their cars more readily if the bus services were up to scratch.................. but that's an entirely different can of worms!

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - scot22

Absolutely right ! Also we once had a very extensive rail network - safer roads and less congestion, if people could choose to let the train take the strain.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - slkfanboy

The OP supplied 5 reported posted in as many years. So if 2500 people die on UK roads that is 12,495 killed by manual drivers in the same period. So surely ban the manual!

Going forward(lol) autoboxs are going to become more common place as Hybrid and the like need to remove the human factor from the drive chain allowing optimal gearing power source at all times.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - NARU

Every automatic I've seen has a huge brake pedal and a normal sized accellerator. As only a very occasional driver of automatics, I have nearly stamped on the brake pedal very hard with my left (i.e. clutch) foot a few times..

My wife did that once. SHe pulled out to overtake, instinctively went to change down and we rapidly slowed on the wrong side of the road, with cars behind following us on the overtake and traffic (some way off, fortunately) coming the other way. She never made that mistake again.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - NARU

So from 5 incidents over two years, you reckon you've managed to do some root cause analysis???

This is useful reading: www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac...f

Maybe we should be campaigning for the over 80s to stay in their cars as "nearly three quarters of the increase in total fatalities across all user groups between 2013 and 2014 are of older (aged 60 or over) pedestrians"

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - movilogo

IMHO there are flaws in this argument.

Citing few examples of elderly drivers involved in accident with their cars happen to be automatic does not prove automatics are bad for them.

Do we have stats for similar accidents caused by elderly drivers in manual cars?

What about similar accidents caused by non-elderly drivers in either manual or automatic cars? What % is those accidents compared to overall accident rates in a given period?

Till date there is no scientific study to prove automatic is more accident prone compared to manual cars (and vice versa).

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - madf

Having read this thread, I am concerned. I am an OAP and therefore elderly AND drive an automatic.

Would I be safer if I sold the car and drove a manual? My palpitations don't last long and I manage to avoid swerving across two lanes of the motorway - one lane is my record so far.

Would readers please advise?

And keep it simple. I fall alseep every twenty minutes or so.. I rely on the screams from the back seat to wake me up..

:-)

Edited by madf on 16/02/2016 at 13:04

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - NARU

Having read this thread, I am concerned. I am an OAP and therefore elderly AND drive an automatic....


:-)

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - focussed

If you pass your test in a manual gearbox car you are then qualified to drive manual and auto but there is no facility within the UK driver testing regime to know if you have ever been taught to drive an auto or have had any experience of one.

Because there are now so many different types of auto, some simple, some not so simple, If an elderly motorist is forced because of physical difficulty to buy an automatic car, I would recommend they have a couple of hours with an instructor who teaches automatic, many do nowadays.

I can't see how this could be made compulsory though.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - madf

If you pass your test in a manual gearbox car you are then qualified to drive manual and auto but there is no facility within the UK driver testing regime to know if you have ever been taught to drive an auto or have had any experience of one.

Because there are now so many different types of auto, some simple, some not so simple, If an elderly motorist is forced because of physical difficulty to buy an automatic car, I would recommend they have a couple of hours with an instructor who teaches automatic, many do nowadays.

I can't see how this could be made compulsory though.

If you cannot understand how to drive a car without having to use the manual, it's unsuited to old fogeys like me.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - RT

If you pass your test in a manual gearbox car you are then qualified to drive manual and auto but there is no facility within the UK driver testing regime to know if you have ever been taught to drive an auto or have had any experience of one.

Because there are now so many different types of auto, some simple, some not so simple, If an elderly motorist is forced because of physical difficulty to buy an automatic car, I would recommend they have a couple of hours with an instructor who teaches automatic, many do nowadays.

I can't see how this could be made compulsory though.

If you cannot understand how to drive a car without having to use the manual, it's unsuited to old fogeys like me.

All automatics are simple to drive, in their basic mode - it's only the advanced features like sport-mode or manual intervention that may be too much for some drivers, but they don't need to use those modes and they aren't dangerous if they do so inadvertently.

I leave left-foot braking to rally drivers - mine has stop/go pedals for my right foot, just like the manuals I drive occasionally.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - focussed

If you cannot understand how to drive a car without having to use the manual, it's unsuited to old fogeys like me

But nobody reads the manual anyway - do they?

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - gordonbennet

I should have read the manual, 12 months after buying my present donkeys years old Landcruiser i felt a button previously unfelt on the side of the auto trans lever, pressed it and it switched overdrive off as evidenced by a light on the dash and the engine revs climbed.

Course not all manuals are equal either.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Sofa Spud

Fast Cars - Young drivers + fast car = crash?

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - coopshere
For anyone who has been driving a manual for some time and then switching to an automatic telling them to left foot brake is ridiculous. At some stage in the short term they will go for the clutch and hit the brake pedal instead which is extremely dangerous. Tucking the left foot out of the way and using just the right foot is far safer.

In all the years I have been driving manuals and autos and switching between them the only problem I ever had was going back to a manual and forgetting to use the clutch when coming to a stop.

Edited by coopshere on 19/02/2016 at 11:32

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - focussed
For anyone who has been driving a manual for some time and then switching to an automatic telling them to left foot brake is ridiculous. At some stage in the short term they will go for the clutch and hit the brake pedal instead which is extremely dangerous. Tucking the left foot out of the way and using just the right foot is far safer. In all the years I have been driving manuals and autos and switching between them the only problem I ever had was going back to a manual and forgetting to use the clutch when coming to a stop.

This has been done to death on a previous thread-the correct safe way to use an automatic at slow speed is to use left-foot braking- it's not ridiculous- it's the proper way to retain control of the car when parking or manouevering.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - RT

This has been done to death on a previous thread-the correct safe way to use an automatic at slow speed is to use left-foot braking- it's not ridiculous- it's the proper way to retain control of the car when parking or manouevering.

All my automatics have enabled me to control the car at low speed simply by right foot on the brake - release a little brake pressure to creep, increase brake pressure to stop creeping - when manouevring is finished either select park and switch off or press throttle to accelerate up to normal speeds.

Left-foot braking is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist - unless you're the likes of Ari Vatenan.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - xtrailman

I have only had my auto 3 months but even i find zero reasons to left foot brake while at slow speed, all control is using the brake on my car, no accelerator.

And thats all i do creeping in and out of my tight garage.

So ditto RT.

Edited by xtrailman on 19/02/2016 at 15:48

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wolfan

This has been done to death on a previous thread-the correct safe way to use an automatic at slow speed is to use left-foot braking- it's not ridiculous- it's the proper way to retain control of the car when parking or manouevering.

I agree wholeheartedly with focussed as will the majority of drivers who have had long term experience of vehicles with automatic gearboxes. By doing this the driver has much better control at low speeds and in confined spaces. I had the first of many autos in 1968 and one of my current cars is an automatic. I have always used my left foot when driving autos for braking, when manouvering in tight spaces and driving on our narrow country lanes. This allows for the 30 year old plus idiots of both sexes in their 4X4s, people carriers or whatever the latest fashion statement in cars is, (s.u.v.s?) who drive around blind bends too fast in the middle of the road. It has to reduce reaction time if the left foot is already covering the brake pedal and this applies to both the young and elderly. When driving at normal speeds on two lane single carriageway roads, dual carriageways and motorways I allow my left leg to become redundant unless and untill driving conditions dictate otherwise.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - gordonbennet

I'm absolutely staggered that any experienced driver would suggest driving on the open road using both feet on a two pedal auto a good thing, very glad i leave a decent braking distance, they wouldn't have been doing this for long when a panic stop ensued in pre ABS days, crunch.

Manoeuvering with a poor box such as an automated manual or twin clutch i can understand the need to LFB given how likely they are to lurch away or to roll back if an obstacle should assist or impede progress, not a situation a TC box* normally encounters where as said most manoeuvers can be completed purely on creep with the right foot applying the brake to suit.

*there are exceptions, one maker stopped vehicles being reversed onto the top decks of transporters, the odd vehicle going straight off the peak deck backwards to a spectacular halt, much better to drive off forwards...:-)) you might think i'm pulling your leg, 'fraid not.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wolfan

I'm absolutely staggered that any experienced driver would suggest driving on the open road using both feet on a two pedal auto a good thing, very glad i leave a decent braking distance, they wouldn't have been doing this for long when a panic stop ensued in pre ABS days, crunch.

Manoeuvering with a poor box such as an automated manual or twin clutch i can understand the need to LFB given how likely they are to lurch away or to roll back if an obstacle should assist or impede progress, not a situation a TC box* normally encounters where as said most manoeuvers can be completed purely on creep with the right foot applying the brake to suit.

*there are exceptions, one maker stopped vehicles being reversed onto the top decks of transporters, the odd vehicle going straight off the peak deck backwards to a spectacular halt, much better to drive off forwards...:-)) you might think i'm pulling your leg, 'fraid not.

Instead of being absolutely staggered read and try to understand the last seven words of my post which relate to driving on the open road when traffic conditions are such that left foot braking with an auto is an advantage, as I said before covering the brake pedal with the left foot reduces reaction time and is particularly useful for example when in heavy slow moving traffic where drivers take it into their head to change lanes without warning and occupy the gap that others have left for safe stopping distance, I'm surprised that this should be so difficult to grasp.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - gordonbennet

What do you think the result will be in traffic when our two footed auto driver hits the left pedal with full force?

We are conditioned from day one to have feel in our right leg of throttle and brake pedals pressures and the results from each, what you are suggesting is that someone uses their left leg which hasn't had years of conditioning except for possibly clutch use to emergency brake with.

What could possibly go wrong i wonder.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - RT

Instead of being absolutely staggered read and try to understand the last seven words of my post which relate to driving on the open road when traffic conditions are such that left foot braking with an auto is an advantage,.

If that were a valid point, conventional three-pedal manuals would be banned!

Edited by RT on 19/02/2016 at 20:59

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wolfan

Ok gordonbennet and RT, I surrender, the white flag is unfurled. I know when I'm beaten, I will refrain from further comment but will continue to drive as I have for the last 50 odd years and wish you both many years of safe incident free and enjoyable motoring in the future.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - madf
ne to death on a previous thread-the correct safe way to use an automatic at slow speed is to use left-foot braking- it's not ridiculous- it's the proper way to retain control of the car when parking or manouevering.

Oh dear, I have been driving automatics unsafely all my life as have millions of other people.

My view is simple: when parking or manouevering,creep lets me move without touching the accelerator so right foot hovers over brake..

I have avoided crashing under these circumstances for 50 years of driving as have millions others...

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Avant

Absolutely, ma*** 'Creep' is essential and makes life very easy - easier, indeed, than when you and I started driving. I don't remember ever driving an automatic on a car with a manual choke, but manoeuvring with a cold engine doing 2000+ rpm must have been.... interesting.

Ultimately this has to be a personal choice, rather than a right-or-wrong issue. LFB has many supporters, including HJ, but braking is something that depends, especially in an emergency, on natural instincts, and if you're going to change to it you should get a lot of practice in something like a deserted car park.

I do see the advantages of it once it comes naturally. I haven't ever used it personally when we've had automatics, simply becaue SWMBO doesn't likke automatics and there's always a manual car in the family. For LFB to be an advantage rather than an extra risk, I think you'd need to drive solely automatics.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - NARU

Maybe we need to focus on the children!

New research reveals 66 children – more than one a week – were convicted in 2015 for dangerous driving, while 12 were convicted of drink-driving

www.telegraph.co.uk/cars/news/a-child-a-week-convi.../

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Sulphur Man

You beat me to it, Marlot

Senior citizens allegedly losing control of automatics is but a morsel compared to

1) Unlicensed, banned drivers on the roads

2) Uninsured drivers (approx. 1 in 10)

3) The amount of collisions caused by 17-25 age group drivers

4) Unroadworthy vehicles.

But none of the above carries much interest in the press, so its not reported.

Whereas the below is news. You have to read it all the way through, including the comment underneath from the 'victim's' sister

www.gethampshire.co.uk/news/local-news/yateley-fat...4

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wackyracer

Senior citizens allegedly losing control of automatics is but a morsel

I wonder how many of you with this opinion would change your mind if your wife or child was killed by somebody who should not be driving?

It is very easy to try and dismiss it as a trifling matter, it is actually a growing problem as more and more of us are driving to a much greater age than ever before.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - NARU
I wonder how many of you with this opinion would change your mind if your wife or child was killed by somebody who should not be driving?

I see people every day taking stupid risks - tailgating, clearly not paying attention, on the phone, speeding in built up areas, etc. I'd love to ban every one of them.

Let's get away from the emotion. What's the evidence? Is this group even in the top 10 risky groups on the road?

it is actually a growing problem ...

Where's the evidence?

(I'm actually amazed that we're so sanguine about road deaths and serious injuries. If 100 people died in a train crash we'd want to change the way that the railways were regulated, but when its cars we look the other way. If I had my way, everyone would sit a driving test of some sort every 5 years).

Edited by Marlot on 26/02/2016 at 13:16

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - madf

Senior citizens allegedly losing control of automatics is but a morsel

I wonder how many of you with this opinion would change your mind if your wife or child was killed by somebody who should not be driving?

It is very easy to try and dismiss it as a trifling matter, it is actually a growing problem as more and more of us are driving to a much greater age than ever before.

Our local paper has monthly at least one death in a crash .

Almost without exception, the drivers were under 30 and the crash happened after 11pm... Not seen one from an OAP yet..

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wackyracer

Our local paper has monthly at least one death in a crash .

Almost without exception, the drivers were under 30 and the crash happened after 11pm... Not seen one from an OAP yet..

It depends where you live and the average age of the population there, where I live there are frequently incidents involving elderly drivers. like a 93 year old man who had the misfortune of having the doctors surgery jump out infront of his car which he then had a head on collision with. Luckily there were plenty of medically trained staff inside to help him and his poor elderly wife who had headbutted the windscreen in the collision.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - galileo

It depends where you live and the average age of the population there, where I live there are frequently incidents involving elderly drivers. like a 93 year old man who had the misfortune of having the doctors surgery jump out infront of his car which he then had a head on collision with. Luckily there were plenty of medically trained staff inside to help him and his poor elderly wife who had headbutted the windscreen in the collision.

So no airbag and no seatbelt for the poor wife?

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - RT

Senior citizens allegedly losing control of automatics is but a morsel

I wonder how many of you with this opinion would change your mind if your wife or child was killed by somebody who should not be driving?

It is very easy to try and dismiss it as a trifling matter, it is actually a growing problem as more and more of us are driving to a much greater age than ever before.

So that's everyone banned from driving then is it?

Every group of drivers, however you segment them, has those that make mistakes or are simply irresponsible - but then banning the whole group would have to be applied to every segment.

Put it this way - elderly driver kills a woman and child that walk out in front of them - you need to establish why it occured - age, speed, pedestrian not looking.

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - John Boy
Every group of drivers, however you segment them, has those that make mistakes or are simply irresponsible ...

Can't be true! Most people who frequent motoring forums are impeccable drivers.

:-)

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - Wackyracer
Every group of drivers, however you segment them, has those that make mistakes or are simply irresponsible ...

Nobody said to ban whole groups or age bands of driver though, I certainly did not.

the current system which allows people to self assess is totally wrong.

regardless of age, it allows people who have suffered epileptic seizures to tell lies in order to keep their licence, those whose eye sight is soo poor it cannot even meet the dismal minimum requirement to drive(I thought I'd get that in before you tell me again how low it is..and I agree fully that it is low).

In reality this 'system' of allowing a person to say if they are fit or not to drive just does not work regardless of how old they are. If it did work then LGV licence holders would not have to visit a doctor and pay the expensive fee for the doctor to assess their fitness to drive. It does not matter how big a car is, even a little car weighs about a ton and thats alot of projectile to be travelling at speed in an uncontrolled state!

Automatics - Elderly drivers + automatic = crash? - RT

Every driver from 17 to 69 has to "self-assess" their fitness to drive as well, at least for A/B/C groups - we don't lose self-assessment ability on our 70th birthday.

I'm all for regular assessment - driving ability, health, eyesight - but starting from 17.

Edited by RT on 26/02/2016 at 15:05