Link doesn't work for me.
I'd be interested in this.
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Your link isn't working for me, smokie. I trebled the insulation in my loft by laying another layer at right angles to the rafters, I used the Kanuf 200mm space blanket over the 100mmm laied between the rafters, this is plastic and space blanket wrapped and easy to handle. In the floored area I used the Kanuf space board over the existing insulation, with the flooring over that. I have thermostatically controlled radiators and have noticed that they are running much cooler although the house is warmer, I assume (and hope) my boiler is not working so hard to maintain the set temperature. I did the job last summer when the insulation was on "special offer" and this halved the cost. It is an excellent opportunity to de-clutter the loft, I got rid of loads of junk.
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Link corrected. The closed bracket right at the end of the tinyurl link prevented it from working. DD.
You'd have thought I'd have learnt that one by now, the amount of times I've done it!! smokie
Edited by smokie on 08/02/2010 at 12:41
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I've re-insulated using space blanket - hardest task was cramming around 20 rolls into the Honda ! It was £5.30 a roll less a 15% voucher from B&Q. I insulated in the traditional way by insulating the "floor" of the attic - I didn't want to heat the space in the attic with warmth from below ! No mess.
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When we did this last year the alleged payback period on the loft insulation was pleasingly short. We took it from ancient old "about two inches of crumbly old fluff" up to about 300mm, so a big change.
The catch that we didn't think though was that the loft, after the job, was then insufficiently ventilated and everything got a trifle damp. A nice man sorted that out and promptly increased the payback period considerably.
As to the important thing - was the house warmer - the answer is possibly, a bit, if you concentrate. Not overwhelming though in our case, nor have we been able to turn down any thermostats. As they say on the internets, ymmv.
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Dipstick,
"As to the important thing - was the house warmer - the answer is possibly, a bit, if you concentrate", that's my experience too. We stuffed the loft full of "space blanket" and something made from recycled lemonade bottles, on a B&Q two for one offer two years ago, taking insulation up from about four inches to the recommended ten. Then, late last spring we added cavity wall insulation, using a Sainsburys "no strings" offer after getting annoyed at the extras and escalating price from B&Q.
Observations;
we've had a cold winter so it's hard to say. Furthermore we're using oil, no gas out here, so I can't easily compare quarters bills. We certainly don't seem to be using more(!) which I might have expected given the temperatures we have had (and are still having. It's 2C out there right now with a 10 mph wind).
It is far cheaper to pay someone to do the job (loft insulation) than buy the materials yourself. But do they do as good a job?
You can't half cram a load of insulation into a Jazz with the back seats down. Makes the Tardis look poky! :-)
Why did I have to pay VAT on the insulation? I saved the planet Gordon and you charged me VAT on the materials!!! Potty.
JH
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I would stick to a decent level of insulation at floor level. Insulation between rafters can lead to condensation.
Wickes had a buy one get 2 free offer on various rolls of insulation this weekend.
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Sorry I think I got my terminology wrong, I insulated the floor of my loft.
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I've been pondering this too. See: www.celotex.co.uk/Applications/Pitched-Roofs
You should be able to beat B&Q prices quite easily, BTW.
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Main problem with putting the insulation at rafter level is that you are effectively heating the loft before you get any benefit from the insulation. Much better to put it at floor level.
If you shop around and get roll insulation that has been subsidised by the energy companies it can be up to ten times cheaper than the rigid Celotex/Kingspan type insulation.
If you don't want visible rockwool then Old Navy's route of Knauf Spaceblanket is a good way to go. It you don't want to lift the existing boarding then Spaceboards can be used but are quite expensive - you need it two boards thick to match 150mm of Spaceblanket.
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You need to consider the benefits of a warm roof (insulating rafters) compared to a cold roof (insulating the joists supporting the ceiling below).
Beware condensation.
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Recently took advantage of an offer on martyn lewis money saving site with regard to loft insulation, apparantly Npower were doing a 10000 roll offer (first come first served) for £1 a roll inc vat and delivery! - I grabbed my 20 rolls as soon as the offer opened, but when it was delivered, I took possession of 20 BIG rolls, thinking there looked to be rather alot, I checked them out and discovered that each BIG roll was infact 3 standard rolls!. When I phoned them to tell them of thier mistake, they just told me to keep them! my loft is well insulated now, but as others have said, it doesn`t seem much warmer, perhaps all the escaping heat is now trapped in the insulation!
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If you go for the insulated loft floor option, don't forget to leave the area under your header tank free of insulation, unless you want frozen pipes up there.
To the OP, have you also gone round the house proofing against drafts, had your boiler serviced, checked the C heating pump is A1, bled the radiators and fitted thermostatic valves on them?
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"... proofing against drafts, ... boiler serviced, checked the C heating pump is A1, bled the radiators and fitted thermostatic valves on them?"
Nice, that's the kind of thinking I'm starting to do.
There are few "external" drafts (all double glazed) but we are keeping internal doors closed more. I have my voucher for £400 towards a new boiler, but am wondering why I'm about to spend over £1500 on swapping out what is a perfectly good boiler (annual savings appear to indicate a v long payback period). The pump is reasonably new and the rads get bled (and emptied) at decorating time, and sometimes in between if performance is degraded.
I am about to get a device fitted to the CH (www.adeysolutions.co.uk/TwinTech.asp )to catch all the magnetic and non-magnetic stuff that's making the system inefficient. We often get build-up of this in rads - can tell by warm edges and cold centres. I'm having this done in advance of the new boiler to clean the system a bit, and in favour of a power flush, which I had done a few years back and costs about £350.
I am also getting moderately excited about solar water heating and leccy generation, but was saving that for another day on here :-)
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>>I am about to get a device fitted to the CH (www.adeysolutions.co.uk/TwinTech.asp )
Interesting! I'd like to see some independant test results.
>>I am also getting moderately excited about solar water heating and leccy generation, but was saving that for another day on here :-)
I spent a very interesting day at the Centre for Alternative Technology (www.cat.org.uk/index.tmpl?refer=index&init=1) in Snowdonia.
I got the impression that the most efficient solar hot water system involved a DIY type job with a central heating radiator in the equivalent of a gardening cold frame. I'd love to fit such a device above a large, south-facing, lounge window. If I got the maths right it would also act as a sun-shade during the summer.
IIRC small level electric generation just didn't cost in.
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IIRC small level electric generation just didn't cost in.
>>
Check the average annual wind speed in your area before considering a domestic wind generator, the wind speed in my area (east central Scotland) does not make it a viable option.
Edited by Old Navy on 08/02/2010 at 16:06
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>>I have my voucher for £400 towards a new boiler, but am wondering why I'm about to
>>spend over £1500 on swapping
Not worth it. Your new boiler has an expected life of 5 years; the old one will probably carry on forever.
>>the rads get bled (and emptied) at decorating time, and sometimes in between if
>>performance is degraded
If your radiators fill with "air" then either you have a leak in the system, or, more likely, you need more inhibitor in there - the "air" is in fact hydrogen gas generated as the system corrodes. That's why you have so much black iron oxide in your system.
>>www.adeysolutions.co.uk/TwinTech.asp
I have a suspicion that if you fit it to your car it will save you diesel as well. And if you wear it out clubbing you are more likely to pull.
For a start, the website is written by an illiterate author. "Leeching" (sic) rather than leaching.
Secondly, I don't believe that it will work even remotely effectively. The black sludge sits in the radiators. Your magnet is not powerful enough to draw it out of the radiators, merely to catch it as it goes past the magnet.
Edited by Mapmaker on 08/02/2010 at 17:38
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My next-door-neighbour is my plumber (fully qualified too!).
He reckons a life of 15 years for the new fangled boilers - I reckoned 10+ years to break even on gas savings alone, so I have already decided to not go ahead with it. Although it is also true that my existing boiler will die sooner or later, so it's a bit of a calculated risk as to how long that will be.
The rads don't fill with air but I get the black sludge. It's an open system isn't it? I don't see where air would get in, as it isn't leaking anywhere. None of the rads are that old, as I tend to replace whenever I decorate.
However the magnetic device is apparently very good - he's installed them for others. We know it won't drag stuff out of the system, but once the system is reasonably clear (by removing and draining rads) it should keep it much cleaner.
I can't see the typo you refer to, if it indeed is one, but IMO perfect spelling ability isn't necessary for plumbers, and says nothing about the product.
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However the magnetic device is apparently very good - he's installed them for others.
British Gas installed one with the parents' new condensing boiler last year, if that counts for anything...
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If your radiators fill with "air" then either you have a leak in the system or more likely you need more inhibitor in there ... why you have so much black iron oxide in your system.
There is a problem by the sound.
>> magnaclean
I have a suspicion that
I agree. Even should it work effectively, it would simply be masking any problem.
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... proofing against drafts ... "external" drafts ...
I would worry more about the hobnailed boots of all these drafts marching up and down in your house and garden. They'll do damage, you know. Tell them to go away.
Use draught proofing strips or something if you're feeling draughty.
and the rads get bled (and emptied) at decorating time and sometimes in between if performance is degraded.
The radiators should never need bleeding unless there's a fault with the CH system. This could be: Air being entrained. No inhibitor. Electrolytic corrosion. Make sure that the system isn't "pumping over", that there are no leaks, and put some inhibitor in.
I am about to get a device fitted to the CH (www.adeysolutions.co.uk...
and:
a power flush which I had done a few years back and costs about £350.
*Why?*
A £350 "power flush" added to the cost of a "magnaclean" go quite a way towards replacing the rotting radiators you currently have with new and better-looking ones.
Again, if your system is corroding, there's a problem. Fitting "devices" won't help. Sort out the root problem.
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There was a mention of the condensation problem in the Telegraph the other week (couldn't find a link). Apparently the warm wet air from the rooms rises through the ceiling and insulation until it reaches its dewpoint somewhere within the insulation. Water then soaks the insulation, and eventually the ceiling plasterboard. Modern building standards include a vapour barrier under the insulation to prevent this. The columnist recommended staying with 100 mm insulation where there is no VB, iirc.
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Here's the link dimdip.
tinyurl.com/yec7sp7
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Blimey, there's always a doom-monger (not you dimdip) :-( Was this by any chance the Sunday edition? I haven't bought it in years but there was a chap in there who gave some very "contrary" building advice. Not to say that he's wrong of course! :-(
JH
Edited by JH on 08/02/2010 at 15:15
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Thanks oc. Looks like I made up the 100 mm figure, he just says 'reduce the thickness'. Seems to suggest the VB can be fitted at the same time as the ins. which would hopefully avoid the problem at ceiling level at least. He does comes across as a tad world-weary JH :-)
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You need to consider the benefits of a warm roof (insulating rafters) compared to a cold roof (insulating the joists supporting the ceiling below). Beware condensation.
Yes, we haven't got much insulation above the ceiling, but I'm tempted to go the Celotex / Kingspan / similar stuff route as there's a fair amount of clutter stored in the loft, plus water pipes,tanks etc. so I'd rather not make the loft too cold.
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so I'd rather not make the loft too cold.
*The OP is talking about insulating between the *rafters**
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>> so I'd rather not make the loft too cold. *The OP is talking about insulating between the *rafters**
Yes, but others are talking about insulation above the ceiling, my preference would be inter-rafter.
There's loads of data on the Kingspan site, for example, on applications, risks etc.:-
www.insulateonline.com/index1.htm?products.htm~main
Edited by SpamCan61 {P} on 08/02/2010 at 16:24
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Instead of the cost involved at improving insulation, etc., I had previously toyed with the idea of getting one of those monitors for the electric supply so you can see how how a particular electric item uses in terms of electric units.
.... still in between selling and buying so I watch this thread with interest. I do not think I would pay for solar panels in Manchester though... they may take forever to repay the outlay. When/if we move to southern Europe I will get some - and this is planned.
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I have one of those monitors - They make you paranoid but they do save money !
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I'm not convinced you'll get the cost of a monitor back either. What's it going to tell you that you don't already know? The fact that you have expressed an interest shows that you are energy conscious so you probably switch things off, don't use standby and so on. Wait for your electricity provider to give you one.
Darn, just as I submit the post PU says they save money. Well there's a man I'll believe. Maybe we should club together and bulk buy?
JH
Edited by JH on 08/02/2010 at 18:42
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Children in the shower for a long long time costs.... proving that and changing their habits could repay quickly ;-) How someone needs to be in the shower (electric) for 20+ minutes....
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Children in the shower for a long long time costs.... 20+ minutes....
Get a low-flow shower head, uses less water, less water to heat = less energy used = less cost. The 20 minute shower could cost you about 25p - but that's just a guess.
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Get a low-flow shower head uses less water less water to heat = less energy used = less cost.
Or use a jug - my morning shower, including hair wash, uses about 3 litres. I did suggest this to my teenage son, but he wasn't keen :(
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How someone needs to be in the shower (electric) for 20+ minutes....
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Apply water conservation rules, water on for 20 seconds to wet body, apply soap, water on to wash off soap, total shower "on" time 90 seconds. Easy until a teenager or female is involved.
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Some energy companies and one or two newspapers have been supplying such energy monitors free of charge.
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I got mine cheap in surprise Tesco price cut thing. You become obsessed with it though - I warn you.
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Every time you type your computer uses a tiny bit more electricity. Good reason to keep posts concise maybe ? ;-)
I was going to go on to say........
...........anyone got 50p for the meter ?
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H, does yours not have a treadle? :-)
JH
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I'm not convinced you'll get the cost of a monitor back either. What's it going to tell you that you don't already know?
I think it depends what sort of brain you have;being an engineer type person I have reasonable idea how much appliances costs to run without a meter, and there's my 5 quid Lidl meter for other stuff. Other members of the Spamcan household incessantly switch energy saving bulbs on and off, saving 0.00001p per annum, but take endless hot baths. So a meter would be useful to give them a sense of proportion.
I did calculate the payback on one of those mickey mouse wind turbines the DIY sheds sell; it came out at around 20 years, and that was using the ( often optimistic) average windspeed data available.
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I did calculate the payback on one of those mickey mouse wind turbines the DIY sheds sell; it came out at around 20 years and that was using the ( often optimistic) average windspeed data available.
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Thats about what I came up with, in fact nearer 25 years for my area, (see my post above at 1603).
Edited by Old Navy on 08/02/2010 at 19:15
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And it has got to keep working all that time. When B+Q built a new store near me they put a large turbine on the roof - not a propellor type but one with a vertical axis.
I've only seen it working about three times in over a year, and not for the last six months. The days I did see it move there wasn't much wind so it might have driven by an electric motor!
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one of those monitors for the electric supply so you can see how how a particular electric item uses in terms of electric units.
It's stated on a little plate stuck on the appliance somewhere.
So, your kettle takes a nominal 2.8 kW. That's 60/2.8 minutes on a unit - about 21 minutes. Your wall-hung TV takes 290W. That's 3 hrs 27 minutes per unit. Your 60W incandescent lightbulb runs for about 16 hrs 40 mins on a unit. Your replacement 11W "low energy" bulb runs for about 90 hrs 55 minutes on the same amount of electricity.
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Your wall-hung TV takes 290W
My old 28" CRT was about 100W. My LCD is a lot less! 290W = massive plasma?
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>> Your wall-hung TV takes 290W 290W = massive plasma?
I've no idea. The figure was just an example, but I have heard "about 300W" mentioned in the context of large Plasma TVs.
I've taken a "pot shot" at LCD TV power consumption. A thing called a "Samsung LE32B530", a 32" LCD set, takes about 80W when it's on. A Philips 32" CRT thing seems to use about 130W when on. The difference is 50W - you'd have to watch a *lot* of TV to notice a big price difference.
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I'm no expert but I believe that LCD tvs became much more energy efficient from about the beginning of last year. To the point where you have to have a real monster for it to be using more than your old CRT. Prior to that your CRT used less electricity than most LCDs (gross generalistaion you understand). Prior to that, energy efficiency had not received much attention. Maybe Arnie woke up the manufacturers with his threat to ban big screens.
JH
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I do not think I would pay for solar panels in Manchester though... they may take forever to repay the outlay >>
Supposing I give you an incentive: that for every kWh you generate and use yourself, YOU get paid over 40p per unit for NOT taking power from the grid (and save yourself the cost of buying that amount from the grid), and if you generate more than you need then any excess that you export to the grid will earn you 3p a unit.
Will you install it then? The scheme I have outlined (FIT) comes in to force in April
To help you decide, here is an extract from the news about this scheme:
" With interest rates at a current historic low, the 7-10% estimated returns under the FIT scheme offer a better investment than leaving money in the bank. " [*]
www.r-e-a.net/info/rea-news/details-of-feed-in-tar.../
[*] read notes to editors at the bottom of that page for the calculation assumptions.
Edited by jbif on 08/02/2010 at 18:57
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No. Keeping it short because typing a longer response apparently uses more electric :-)
Seriously, yes you could get money back.... but it needs to generate electricity over and above you can use.... unlikely to happen. And costs a great deal to begin with.
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but it needs to generate electricity over and above you can use >>
No, no, no. You don't seem to have understood the scheme.
The excess will earn you a paltry 3p a unit, so that is not worthwhile. However, anything that YOU do use, just even 10% of your normal consumption, that you manufacture from your own generation source will pay you over 40p a unit and save the cost of buying it from the grid.
The subsidy to you will be paid direct to you by the electricity suppliers, and will be funded by those people who do not generate their own electricity, via higher bills levied by the supply companies.
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SQ
The subsidy to you will be paid direct to you by the electricity suppliers and will be funded by those people who do not generate their own electricity via higher bills levied by the supply companies.
Ah right, politics not engineering. I'll do the sums anyway.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/02/2010 at 19:38
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Read something similar to this in our local paper couple of weeks ago, some local councillor in conjunction with a renewable energy firm were touting for peoples ideas/reactions on a "self- supply" scheme. Basically, they want you to invest your own money into the scheme, then you withdraw returns (electricity/gridresalecash) proportionate to your inital investment.
I thought at the time that Dell-boy said it best, "Where there`s a scheme - theres a schemer Rodders!"
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To help you decide here is an extract from the news about this scheme: " With interest rates at a current historic low the 7-10% estimated returns under the FIT scheme offer a better investment than leaving money in the bank. " [*] www.r-e-a.net/info/rea-news/details-of-feed-in-tar.../ [*] read notes to editors at the bottom of that page for the calculation assumptions.
Having spent some time in my day job looking at powering telcomms equipment in remote (but very sunny) areas from pv panels the logistics seldom add up, even for equipment using only a couple of hundred watts. So the concept of anyone in the UK being able to generate enough power to sell it back seems implausible, but I'll trawl through the fine detail as it sounds intriguing.
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So the concept of anyone in the UK being able to generate enough power to sell it back seems implausible, >>
I repeat, you do NOT have to export a single unit.
They pay you 40p+ for the power you generate to consume yourself.
On top of that add the saving from not having to pay for that power from the grid (10p a unit or whatever it is now).
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