The scheme includes the electrification of the Liverpool to Manchester line, currently served by diesel units, at a cost of £100m.
According to the local BBC news programme last night, the cost of powering trains using electricity will be reduced by 35 per cent as they are cheaper to run than with diesel; it was also pointed out that as diesel trains are much slower because of the weight of the fuel they have to carry, the new electric trains will cut journey times by about a third.
In addition, most journeys will be covered by six-car trains rather than the present cramped three-car diesel units, which have brought a great number of passengers' complaints.
A great deal of the work on the electrification of the line will be carried out overnight to minimise travel disruption.
See:
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8164511.stm
Edited by Stuartli on 24/07/2009 at 13:30
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_rail good section on disadvantages (and have a laugh at the safety bit!)
The best third rail usage was the TGV (Eurostar) running in the UK on Victorian technology.
Edited by Mapmaker on 24/07/2009 at 13:39
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I used to get the train from Manchester or Stockport to Wilsmlow a lot. They use clas 323s (these are soon to be replaced). They were extremely quick and reliable. Also plenty of space and very comfortable. I hate DMUs with a passion, they are too noisy and cramped. EMUs are so much better. I cannot wait for the improvements although I rarely go to Liverpool anyway.
With regard to third rail I always assumed it was due to safety reasons. Its different in a tunel system such as the underground.
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It was also pointed out that as diesel trains are much slower because of the weight of the fuel they have to carry the new electric trains will cut journey times by about a third.
I think electric trains will accelerate more quickly, but I don't think the speeds on the south west lines from Paddington will increase over the Intercity 125s - aren't they mainly limited by the track?
In addition most journeys will be covered by six-car trains rather than the present cramped three-car diesel units which have brought a great number of passengers' complaints.
But the 125s are 8 coach units.
I guess things must progress, but the Paddington-Bristol service (used by myself between Reading and Bath) which is due for electrification runs pretty well with the 125s from what I can tell. Just seemed like a lot of money to fix something that isn't broken (might not apply to the other lines).
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BTW the Reading to Waterloo line is electric 3rd rail.
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Focus, this issue is being debated by some very knowledgeable people on www.reading-forum.co.uk. I believe you live in Reading, so presume you're interested from a lcoal point of view given the recent announcement about the London-Swansea line.
Some interesting technical stuff being discussed there.
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Focus this issue is being debated by some very knowledgeable people on www.reading-forum.co.uk.
Thanks - I'll have a look.
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The Manc to Liverpool line is extremely crowded with local all stops and the express Liverpool services. The line isn't suitable for locomatives, mutliple units work on it much much better.
You cannot really compare a modern EMU with a Class 43 125 because they are designed to completly different jobs. EMus are brilliant for express trains connecting local cities, 125s are good for long distance high speed travel were aceleration is less of an issue.
The trains I usualy go on are class 142s (horrible horrible), class 156 and 170 sprinters (horrible), pendolinos (cramped due to fact every seat is always sold but so so so so so fast, 200 miles in 2 hours and 3 minutes) but my favourite atm is the class 323s EMUs.
Northern have now started introducing german built Diseros on the Manchester to Blackpool services, it will be interesting to see if they can make them relaible. Other TOCs seem to be getting rid of the.
I consider myself having little knowledge of trains yet all of above is pure train geek speak. Oh dear. I am a trainspotter without realising it!
Edited by Rattle on 24/07/2009 at 14:57
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I live in the MerseyTravel area, which is served by third rail electric trains that run to better than 90 per cent punctuality - this is essential, especially at Liverpool Central, where three major lines use just two platforms, with two lines terminating there before the return journeys and the third going on to Hunt's Cross.
A full complement of trains was acquired in 1938 (the routes were somewhat different at the time) and such was their efficiency that, when they were replaced 40 years later, the major basic replacement item during their service were replacement electric bushes for the original electric motors.
As today, the trains achieved a 40 minute Southport to Liverpool/Liverpool to Southport journey time, impressive in view of a total of 14 stations on the route.
When these trains were replaced after their lifespan, the new rolling stock proved very troublesome at first, especially with regard to the brakes, which meant that the drivers often had to reverse back into a station they had overshot due to wet rails..:-)
They are due to be replaced in the not too distant future, although the current financial climate may dictate that they are kept on for a bit longer than planned.
Edited by Stuartli on 24/07/2009 at 15:46
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>>especially with regard to the brakes, which meant that the drivers often had to reverse back into a station they had overshot due to wet rails..:-)
Partly because the disc brakes on 507s 508s didn't leave debris which effectively keyed the wheel / rail interface, and partly because the so-called dynamic braking, where the motors turn into generators, was rather clunky and npredictable in its operation.
Enter the cab of many of this era and type of train (class 313, etc) and you'll find the dynamic brake switch in the OFF position!
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The north London line varies from third rail to overhead line along parts of its journey.
At one station there is a sign at the end of the platform that says PANTS DOWN
Telling the driver to lower the pantograph as it switches from pantograph and catenary, to third rail and shoe.
The use of third rail caused horrific issues for network rail and south west trains, as the new rolling stock with aircon consumed far more amps than was available at certain parts of the network.
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>>The north London line varies from third rail to overhead line along parts of its journey.
>>At one station there is a sign at the end of the platform that says PANTS DOWN
These are the class 313 dual voltage trains. Thameslink are the other notable dual voltage trains, although I forget which class they are.
In the depot, you are not allowed to work below the sole bar of a dual voltage vehicle's body while the pantograph is still in contact with the overhead line, as even though there is no 3rd rail in the area, it's possible for faults in the switchover control within the train to make the shoe gear live.
The other nasty thing with 3rd rail trains in the depot is that it only takes one shoe to be touching the 3rd rail anywhere along the rake of carriages for all the vehicle's shoes which may not be anywhere near a 3rd rail to be live.
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>>1. Why use overhead lines instead of a 3rd rail? Presumably the former is a lot more expensive, especially where tunnels are involved (someone told me they have to lower the track?). Is it just a safety issue?
Although there's a lot more metalwork for overhead lines, there are fewer expensive lineside electrical installations required. As there is a need / desire to detect short circuits across the supply, and the voltage drop per mile of third rail is significant, you get a very firm limit on the spacing between lineside supply stations - and IIRC, it's not that far apart!
>>2. I believe they will be purchasing new power units to replace the 25+ year old Intercity125s. But why not just take the diesel engines out of the 125s, add pickups (overhead or 3rd rail) and drive the 125s' existing electric motors directly? Simples :-)
While 125s are almost my favourite mode of travel, they are now reaching the end of their design life, and an expensive retro-fit of the control gear in the space which was orinally designed for a diesel engine will not be a cheap undertaking for so few years of remaining life.
What I don't understand is why we can't simply build to print to print a few more class 91 and mkIV sets, rather than designing new trains which almost certainly will be built abroad. Since its inception, class 91s have had lots of time and money spent on upgrading them and making them more reliable and cheaper to maintain - we could take advantage of this work.
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Of course, given the projections for electricity generation, with all the decommissioned nuclear stations and environmentally unsound coal stations closed by the EU, you're going to have to wait for a very windy day to ride in one.
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The news release also referrred to demolishing bridges and tunnels. I can't for the life of me see what this has to do with electrification, nor how the trains will arrive without! Does anyone know what this is about?
Poor reporting again, giving us half of the story. Don't journalists ask questions these days?
JH
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The O/H electrical gear requires extra headroom under bridges - which is not always available. The bridges over the track will need to be re-built.
It is often not possible to lower the track to provide adequate headroom.
Edited by RobertyBob on 24/07/2009 at 19:51
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If you try and squeeze overhead power lines under bridges you have a nsty habit of electrocuting those on the bridge. It all (bridges) needs to go up a tads. (or drop the railway)
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Didn't they spend a lot of money electrifying one of the lines running north/south some years ago, but most of the trains using it now are diesel?
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The East Coast mail line - Kings X to Edinburgh is electrified. I've used it dozens of time and had a diesel once - a 125 last year, I do think National Express were using quite a few 125s as I've seen them in Leeds.
Depite this most services use 225s - great locos, but they are due to be replaced.
I'd like the German style ICE trains where you can sit behind the driver and see ahead!
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