Hi Folks!
Can anybody tell me at which point does a BT telephone line become your responsibility? I always thought that providing you don't rent your handset from them, then thier responsibility ended at the master socket in your property.
The reason i ask is: a friends phone line suddenly went dead the other night, so he reported the fault, Bt tested the line and said it was o.k so the problem must be in his handset. I lent him ours to try, but line still dead, so engineer was called out, who found fault was a burnt out printed circuit board in a small junction box just inside the front door where the line enters the house, this box is not connected to anything else except the wire to the master socket four feet away under the hall table.
What does this box thing do? why has he got one when nobody else i know has? and finally!! as its before the master socket, is it his responsibility, or BT's? They are wanting to charge him £100 +vat for the repair to it!
cheers
Billy
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Has your friend (or perhaps a previous occupant) ever used one of the phone calls cost cutting boxes that used to be popular some years ago?
The boxes in such cases were a means of by-passing BT's call charges by diverting calls through the third party operator.
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Was "the box" of the type where the phone was intended to be hard-wired to the box? If a modern master socket had been DIY wired to "the box" (which you're not allowed to do) then perhaps this is why a charge was made. Which one of these boxes was it? tinyurl.com/2fenjw
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>>Has your friend (or perhaps a previous occupant) ever used one of the phone calls cost cutting boxes that used to be popular some years ago?<<
Don't know! he's been there 6yrs and always been BT.
>>Was "the box" of the type where the phone was intended to be hard-wired to the box? <<
again I dont know! - but as the master socket is only 4ft away, and exactly beneath the wall-mounted hall table (which was already there when he moved in) then a diy fitted master socket COULD be the reason. In which case i would have expected the engineer to have removed it rather than repair it, it would have been cheaper! Obviously more detective work to do then! if he doesn't want to pay!
cheers folks
billy
p,s box looks externally like test unit 14a - not had a look inside it though! - yet!
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Sounds like someone wired in their own modern master socket to me then. BT probably have the right to charge as replacing the original socket for the modern version had a cost. Surprised they did not just do that.
My mum used to have a trimphone and had problems. Managed to get a new socket and phone for free and for years had had a modern socket which phones plug in to. I remember (I think) when we got the phone and nearly had to have a "party" (aka shared) line when the neighbour wanted a phone.
I also remember inventing the PVR aged 10... new video recorder installed and the engineer recorded the landing of the first Shuttle. And rewound the picture so astronauts went backwards up the steps. On live TV I wanted him to rewind that. He looked at me with a look of "are you stupid". My idea was probably patentable in 1980 ;-)
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For what it's worth, plug-in type master sockets were first introduced by BT in 1981.
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p,s box looks externally like test unit 14a - not had a look inside it though! - yet!
Billy, there was a type of block terminal which was like the BT52 internally but which had a 'snap' lid similar to the 14A, I would suggest it was one of those.
Just to clarify the situation, the line is the responsibility of BT, more correctly now, Openreach, from the exchange to, and including, the NTE5, the master socket.
The box that you are describing was always fitted to facilitate the change from external cable to internal cable; in jargonese to change from the dropwire and lead-in to internal.
In days gone by this dropwire was a grey 2 wire cable similar to a heavy duty bell-wire which was later replaced by a black cable containing 4 wires plus several steel strenthening support wires. The dropwire was much stiffer, and less aesthetic to run internally, hence the need to have a point to change from one sort of cable to another. it also provided the engineer with a handy point at which to test whether a fault was internal or external.
Latterly, post deregulation, the NTE5 has become a handier testing point and provides a demarcation point between Openreach's cabling and the internal extension wiring for which the customer is responsible, however it is still practice for Openreach to change from one type of cable to another when entering the property; in fact I believe that external cable can only be run for a maximum of 1 metre internally due to its poorer fire resistance and toxic fume properties.
As the NTE5 is now the service demarcation point, any cabling after is now your responsibilty to service/repair then I would suggest that in your friends case the fault was NOT his responsibility and he should not therefore be billed. The line rental you pay includes the maintainance of the line to the NTE5 UNLESS it can be shown that the householder or something for which he is responsible, eg a poorly maintained tree, causes damage beyond fair wear and tear.
Sadly in the modern world in which everyone is after every pound of flesh Openreach actually have people analysising every fault clearance to try and find a reason for charging for every repair if they can so it is important that if your friend is charged he should challenge it and make them justify the charge. I'm pretty confident that they won't be able to, unless he had done something to the BT to cause the problem, such as spill water all over it or somesuch.
Good luck, but he shouldn't need it, just needs to be forceful and not take any ********.
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I think it's at the master socket, too. BT's website has good instructions on how to check the line from there - I assume if the contact at BT didn't mention this (they are a nightmare to contact, IME), and there was no other way that your friend could have known of their charge (call out £100-ish + £90+/hr), although it is difficult to see how he could not have known, they might waive the charge - however, I'd bet he'll have to cough up!
Reading your post, did you say you've got:
----Incoming------BoxX-------Master------Phone
or:
----Incoming------Master-------BoxX------Phone
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he's got: >>----Incoming------BoxX-------Master------Phone<<
and
>>(call out £100-ish + £90+/hr), Ahh! maybe he's been charged a call-out fee! - must interogate further maybe there is more! ;-)
Edited by billy25 on 05/01/2009 at 17:30
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It sounds like a call out charge. We had repeated problems with our line/internet connexion which engineers kept insisting were down to our equipment. We replaced cables and so on and still had problems. Eventually a chap came to the house and set up some sort of test equipment in our house and went off to a sub-station to check the line. It transpired a junction box two fields away from us was flooded and they cancelled the charge.
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>>was a burnt out printed circuit board
Not sure what the box that cooked was. Most odd as voltage is not that high.
It looks like the "OLD" line termination box that a single phone flex connected with.
If so it looks like a DIY mod and I would have thought the job was to replace a faulty box ( hopefully with a new style NTE5 one.
Certainly worth asking what the charge was.
The modern NTE5 master box
some images.
www.thinkbroadband.com/images/faq/faceplates/IMG_1...g
www.pjls16812.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/talktalk/nte5.J...G
www.solwise.co.uk/images/nte5-idc-terminals-group-...g
img366.imageshack.us/img366/3627/cimg0517mm4.jpg
The concept is good. All DIY cabling is to the front plate. this has a normal socket on the front and a plug on its back.
Removing the front plate ( un plugging it) exposes a normal socket attached just to the incoming line. This permits testing just the line with all kit disconnected.
During sorting out my line I was informed that the cable from the outside termination ( a hook on the eaves in my house) to the master box must be routed so that it can be quickly replaced without disturbing decorations.
My original cable from the seond floor eaves went:
Down the front, through a window frame, down the hall wall, under the mat, along skirting and over three doors and through a door frame. UGH!
I had rerouted it to be hidden so back to work!.
Re my line, They terminated a bunch of us without warning while the cut and reconnected our lines in a capsule in a hole in the pavement, They replaced the cable from pole to house, cable to master socket and then found the fault was half a mile away - a poor joint of dry joint. No charges at any stage.
So good luck.
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I've only had one encounter with BT with regard to a phone line problem (noisy line caused dial-up problems); a former BT manager friend had had a go but with little joy, although his involvement was somewhat restricted for obvious reasons.
The line was then initially checked on-line from the BT exchange, which is some 580 yards from where I live (in a straight line); I had to disconnect/reconnect various equipment such as the dial-up modem whilst the check was carried out.
BT decided it would investigate further and sent an engineer round the next day. He spent two hours checking out my phone(s) set up and replacing the wiring from the house box to the Master Socket, did the standard follow up check and declared it was a BT problem (an earthing problem in a section of BT's phone lines close by).
That saved me £50 plus VAT but, more importantly, I've had no problems since the work was done.
So it's worth remembering that, so long as the work involved is only as far as the Master Socket, then any BT charge is unlikely; it's also very worthwhile getting on the right side of the BT engineer whether the problem is down to your side of the setup or BT...:-)
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My only ever complaint to BT was only just over a year ago... I emailed the CEO and he replied and appointed a senior customer manager. Problem sorted (he's not there now) and financial compensation. The problem was their fault. This current post looks like they are in their right to charge "something".
Argue the archaic box should already have been replaced etc.
Edited by rtj70 on 06/01/2009 at 00:09
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>>My original cable from the seond floor eaves went>>
I've already written about my experience with BT above. The original wiring was crudely tucked under the skirting broad, but the engineer made a much neater job by taking the wiring under the hallway from the front door to the Master socket at the other end.
To achieve this he brought out a chimney sweep's broom handle from his van, which enabled him to carry the wiring via a ventilation hole under the front door to a trapdoor close to the Master socket.
Definitely prepared for anything..:-)
Edited by Stuartli on 06/01/2009 at 11:07
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Afternoon folks,
Thanks for all your replies/suggestions (especially the in-depth explanation from Cockle - thanks) regardings friends Bt problem.
Armed with this knowledge he challenged BT yesterday, whereby it was discovered that due to his indignant attitude (was actually southern humour - which up north here can easily be confused with sarcasm!) some confusion had arisen!
When he 'phoned Customer Service for the second time (to inform them it wasn't his handset, and that the problem was thiers) the lass at BT said she would send an Engineer to find and rectify the fault,When told it would be between 3-5 working days,friend had replied words to the effect of "5 days without a phone, i've had one heart-attack, what if i have another with no phone"
Concerned, the lass had then flagged it as an emergency and despatched the engineer the next day! - hence the emergency call-out fee (£115).(there was no-charge for the repair, (which was as Cockle suggested a external/internal line converter,what the circuit board does we still dont know).
As a sign of goodwill, BT have agreed to wipe half of the fee, and he has agreed to pay the other.
Obviously, this was down to friends attitude and not BT.
Moral, - Initially, take all stories of woe with a pinch of salt!
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