Same problem guys and gals, Camshaft has snaped in 2. Car was bought last January 12000 on clock , it now has 26500 .Been VX serviced since new and everyone I have spoken to about this says the same thing a camshft should not break. I have a friend who is a senior racing instructor at Knockhill in fife he also races himself and knows alot about engines and the way they work and he can't belive this has happened . There is no sign on the camshaft which I have of any damage from other parts of the engine
so it has just snaped for no apparent reason other than design or manufacturing faults
which says to me that VX are 100% liable for this problem.
Contacted dealship where car was bought and they said to phone GM and they should offer you a goodwill gesture. I called them today but I have not heard back from them.
The repair bill is £1220 a goodwill gesture will not cut the mustard at that price and considering a lot of people seem to be having the same issue I belive this should be taken as far as possible. If any one wants to contact me or if anyone has started anything with TS or watchdog please get in touch as I will add to the fight also !!
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Same Ole....My 2005 camshaft has snapped,
Vauxhall recommended a new engine..£5000 plus.. or offered me £200 - £300, part exchange if I bought ANOTHER Vauxhall from them.
I took it to an independant garage who couldn't understand why the camshaft would snap.
I am wondering if anyone has taken this any further..ie. watchdog or trading standards.
I have already paid for a nearly new engine to be put in my car...yes you've guessed...
I've had it replaced with a 2005 engine!
What can we do?
Susie.
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They offered you £300 for a 4 year old car!! Which ever guy told you that is very lucky he didn't spend the night in A&E. Well done for keeping your cool.
I assume BBC watchdog has been informed about all this? I can't understand why the media are not in open arms about it.
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Iknow Raffle, and just for the record its only just over three years old! Its a late 2005 which i've had from new, and they were only offering that if a bought another one from them!!
I'm a driving instructor and have been unable to work for 2 weeks, im gutted at the way Vauxhall have treated me.
I hope someone can let me know if they have had any luck with Vauxhall.
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Please will anyone who has had the same problem get in touch,
Email address....
susieque123@tiscali.co.uk
Many thanks
Susie,
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On 28th January I too had an engine seizure on my 55 Corsa Breeze. When I took my independent garage he informed me I had no pressure in my second cylinder. Vauxhall were contacted but as we were 4 months out of warranty they would only look at the problem for a price. They quoted us over £1000, if it was just a rebuild and about £3000 for a new engine. (this was after a %40 off parts and %10 off labour). We investigated further and found exactly the problem you have all described of a cam shaft snapping in two. The car was bought used in 2006, registerd 2005, had 11,000 miles on the clock and currently only has 22,000 miles. I have been back to my dealer who although is contacting Vauxhall was not hopeful that we would get any more off the repair price. We claimed that the car was not fit for purpose as a cam shaft should not snap at this low mileage with full service histroy and good maintenance. Legal advice has suggested I search the internet for simialr problems. Thankfully there appear to be many so I am now getting in touch with Watchdog, Trading Standards and anyone else who will listen.
Please let me know if you have had the smae issues wioth your corsa.
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Hi, I?ve just picked up my car today (18th Feb) after being in the garage since 5th January. The camshafts have both been replaced along with the cylinder head, gaskets and timing chain and other bits and pieces.
Vx would only offer 60% towards the cost of the repair so my contribution was £791.92. As I?ve said in my original post my car was only 15 weeks out of warranty andhad only done 15,000 miles, to say that I?m disappointed in Vx?s offer would be an understatement.
I would be very interested in joining anyone who is taking this to Watchdog as, judging by the growing number of cases that are appearing on these forums, there is very obviously a problem with the camshafts on these particular aged vehicles.
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SOGA somebody?
Sounds like support action needed imo.
"Hollow is good design - the material near the centre of the shaft contributes little to the torsional strength, the torsional stiffness, the bendiung strength or the bending stiffness. Making them hollow must be costing money, over a solid one."
Still stand with that comment NC after all these failures? Sounds like a design problem to me !
Edited by yorkiebar on 18/02/2009 at 22:19
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Yes!
Just like prop shafts were hollow, it's good design for a shaft - the material on the central axis if the shaft is purely dead weight, it provides *no* strength.
Any design problem with these engines is most probably not caused by the shaft being hollow.
I've heard 2 reasons for this failure, but I don't know the truth of either;
1) The chain wears, and the camshafts whip as the slack gets taken up abruptly
2) The bearings become loose, and the shafts bend and snap
Mechanism 1) is a torsional failure - in torsion, there is zero shear stress on the axis of a shaft
Mechanism 2) is a bending failure - in bending, there is no bending stress on the neutral axis of the shaft, i.e., on the centreline.
So, for both of these mechanisms, the shafts being hollow is a distraction, an irrelevance.
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But a solid camshaft would not break (as easily)!
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I know this may not be intuitively obvious , but there would be very little difference YB - the material inside the bar contributes little to the shaft's strength, but plenty to its weight, and it's the material near the outer surface which is vital.
The shafts being hollow is almost certainly not at the root of this problem.
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Im not even half prepared to take you on at such a subject as this one.
But,
simply put in my theory, I do not think a solid cam would be breaking. Something else might, I agree, but the force needed to snap a solid cam is a lot more than is needed for a hollow cam.
My explanation of that, I can bend and therefore, bend back and forth and break, a pipe of a fair size. A solid bar of the same size = no chance. There must be more strenght in a solid cam.
How many solid cams have you ever known break? Not more than a handful?
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>>Im not even half prepared to take you on at such a subject as this one.
>>But,
OK, here's a question for you YB.
If you have a hollow shaft that's 35mm outside diameter, 25mm internal (so, 5mm wall thickness), what size of solid shaft is that equivalent to in terms of bending or torsional stiffness?
>>There must be more strenght in a solid cam.
Yes, but not a huge difference - most of the metal near the centre is utterly wasted.
>>How many solid cams have you ever known break? Not more than a handful?
I've only known cams fail when there's been another problem - usually, a loose cam belt allowing them to whip, and for torsional fatigue to begin near changes in section.
Edited by Number_Cruncher on 18/02/2009 at 23:09
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Im not taking you on Nc,
I just cant see a hollow cam having anywhere near the strength of a solid one!
I have had 1 solid cam break recently (sept 08) that I can remember (Daewoo), no other fault found on the engine. Due to its age and value it was repaired with a scrap yard cam (and nothing else) and is still running ok now!
Now these hollow cams seem to be failing a plenty? I would love to see a solid cam in its place to see what happened.
Whilst I will disagree often with you (whats life if everybody agrees?) I am in no way qualified to discuss strength of x versus y.
But in practical terms I still dont agree with you!
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>>But in practical terms I still dont agree with you!
There's no difference between what I'm talking about and "practical terms".
There are some areas of science where what is thought and theorised about might not exist or happen - gravitational waves for an example, despite having been written about by Einstein in 1918 have never been measured directly.
However, the bending and torsion of shafts have been very well understood for a very long time, and all of the shafts in cars, trucks, aircraft, and all machines are designed using these principles. There's no gap between theory and practice.
In terms of stiffness, a hollow shaft of OD 35, and ID 35 is equivalent to a solid shaft of diameter.....
32.46mm
Not exactly a huge difference is there?
Edited by Honestjohn on 11/04/2009 at 17:45
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Sorry if you took it as a personal attack, it wasnt meant like that, but
generally
solid cams dont break; hollow ones obviously do !
Still doesnt explain why I can break a hollow tube and not a solid one of the same diameter!
Lets leave it there, we are not going anywhere ?
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>>Sorry if you took it as a personal attack, it wasnt meant like that
No, not at all - no offence taken, and hopefully, none given.
>>solid cams dont break
Not true - I've seen a number of Vauxhalls (Astras, Cavaliers, Carltons, Mantas) with snapped cams, and a number of MBs too.
>>hollow ones obviously do !
In this engine, yes, but, we don't know why, and we don't hear anything of other hollow cams which work well.
>>Still doesnt explain why I can break a hollow tube and not a solid one of the same diameter!
That's almost certainly untrue - the only way I might believe it is if you're talking about thin walled hollow tubes, where the thin wall can locally buckle and significantly weaken the shaft. These cams aren't thin walled tubes.
>>Lets leave it there, we are not going anywhere ?
What do you think about the numbers?
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The numbers mean zilch to me !
But in my opinion its not a bearing caps issue, maybe a tensioner isssue; but far more likely an oil quality issue !
But if it was oil quality, I would have expected more wear on the cams (a la old astras and cavs etc). Not that the oil was the problem with those, but the wear if you understand!
And as an aside? why arent the SOGA proclaimers shouting from the rooftops over these failures?
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>>The numbers mean zilch to me !
I'll try to provide some interpretation.
All I'm talking about is comparing the bending or twisting of a hollow shaft with a solid shaft which would behave in the same way if loaded equivalently.
So, a hollow shaft 35mm OD, and 25mm ID is equivalent to a solid shaft of about 32.5mm diameter.
We have 2 shafts, the hollow one is 7% larger in diameter than the solid one, but, less than HALF the weight, and the 2 shafts *are* completely equivalent in terms of how far they deflect under a given load.
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>>but the wear if you understand!
That was finally solved by Vauxhall beginning to use a TIG hardening process in about 1989/1990. Prior to that, replacing Vauxhall OHC camshafts was a really common job - for wear on the cam lobes, exactly as you say.
>>but far more likely an oil quality issue !
For that to be the case, there has to be a chain of events between a breakdown in lubrication, and the cams snapping - one might expect to see pick up or damage in the wearing surfaces of the bearings. Has anyone seen such damage? (I don't "know" the answer here - I would really like to find out some more to obtain some pointers what the root cause of this failure actually is)
My friend and ex-colleague says he's found loose cam bearing caps on Corsas with snapped cams - whether that is cause or effect, (or irrelevant even!), I don't know.
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I agree with NC. I have known solid shafts to break, particularly on chain cam engines.
The Merc 190 4 pot petrol is a case in point. If the cam tensioner is fitted incorrectly, the chain is far too tight and the shaft breaks at the first oil drilling like a bread stick.
Ted
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". If the cam tensioner is fitted incorrectly, the chain is far too tight and the shaft breaks at the first oil drilling "
Failing at an oil drilling would point to poor oil supply; with or without too much tension! Or a weak point in the cam? (ie not a solid point)
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>>Failing at an oil drilling would point to poor oil supply; with or without too much tension! Or a weak point in the cam?
No!
In Ted's example, the cam failing points only to a mis-fitted tensioner, which overloads the cam - exactly where the cam fails in that case is irrelevant.
In the same way, if the bearing caps are coming loose on these Corsas, the cam is suddenly exposed to a bending stress that it was never designed for - the fault being in the bearing caps - not the cam.
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A shaft of OD = 35 and ID = 35 would represent a degree of material saving even GM would be proud of...
Still missing my (proper) SAAB - may they RIP after a decade or so of being owned by gangsters.
659.
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Ha!, sorry, I meant to write 25!, as I hope I did when I originally posed the question.
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I know - I reversed your calculation and came to that result - couldn't resist it though!
659.
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>>Just like prop shafts were hollow, it's good design for a shaft - the material on the central axis if the shaft is purely dead weight, it provides *no* strength.
Purely pedant mode here, should that be 'dead mass'?
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Thank you NC. I'll keeep quiet from now (or try to ;>) )
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In reply to the above posts, the garage which removed my engine have told me they could see no reason whatsoever for my camshaft to have snapped. They say it is a clean break. I have had the car serviced whenever due, there was clean oil & filters on it?
I'm not a mechanic, but camshafts snapping on so many of these engines, surely it has got to be a manufacturing fault?
Susie.
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If anyone has their broken camshafts, and the fracture faces aren't further damaged by running against each other, it might be worth taking some good quality pictures of the fracture faces and posting them up on a hosting site - *sometimes* it's possible to obtain hints from the appearance of the fracture surface about the cause of the failure (although to do it properly needs much more magnification than an ordinary camera can provide)
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My daughter's car broke down this week with exactly the same problem. It's only done 30k and just out of warranty. Reading all these messages is very depressing! I'm up for reporting them to Watchdog, Trading Standards & the safety group etc.
It seems to me that this model should have been recalled and all repairs for out of warranty should be paid by Vauxhall in full.
The car is still with a Vauxhall garage at the moment; I've asked them for a detailed report of what is wrong, what tests they've carried out, breakdown of estmated costs (inc. testing we are told!) & why head office are not willing to make a contribution.
I'm then going to write to Head Office detailing when it was bought etc, quoting sections of the Sale of Goods Act (not for for purpose), list of any other complaints I can get my hands on & get them to put in writing why they won't accept responsibility even though they have mounting evidence that there is a design fault in this model.
I expect they will refuse to make any contribution so, I will look for alternative estimates of cost & then pay to get the car back on the road.
I'll then use all of this evidence to go to the Small Claims Court.
I think that if I can evidence to the Court that Vauxhall know there is something wrong with this vehicle but are refusing to rectify that, I'll win...... that will then set a precident for all you other Guys to get your money back!
So, will you be willing to write me a letter (I'll draft out some ideas for you to follow) and allow me to use as evidence in Court?
We can't let them get away with this .... if we stick together, they'll have to pay up!
Look forward to hearing from you
Liz
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Same problem yesterday with 1.2 Corsa 09/05 with 26k on the clock. Last service at 20K miles. Vauxhall customer service are not interested and have tried to suggest that they have no obligation to a vehicle that has been serviced outside of franchise which I confess the last one had been, although it was a Bosch listed service station that uses genuine parts.
My cousin happens to be quite high up in the BBC and I will speak to him later to try and get a good contact within the Watchdog office to take the case too. It would be helpful if anyone knows of any more links or forums where this problem is being discussed to get a justifiable number of people with the same issue for them to take an interest.
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If anyone would like to write me a letter (I will supply draft showing what information to include) please contact me at ecarter674 at aol dot com
I hope to hear from as many people as possible!
Thanks Liz
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I've mentioned previously, regarding the possibilty of taking legal action against a company/individual, something many will forget, that they probably already have 'Legal Cover' on their home insurance.
This is usually included, or added on for £20ish/year, offers free advice & covers a significant amount of the costs, towards action - assuming there is anticipated success - without it affecting premiums.
Might be worth a try!
VB
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I am reading all your messages and it feels a bit like dejavu. i to have a corsa breeze o5 plate it has a 1 ltr engine with 18000 miles on the clock, i was driving to school to pick up my son when it started to loose power the engine management light started flashing and it was making a back fireing noise. panicking i called a mechanic friend who got me to a garage, they put it on a machine to see where the problem lay.
I have been told that the camshaft has snapped and could cost in exsess of £400 pounds to fix. this is of course they do not find any more problems when the new camshaft has been connected up which is also common and could leave me hundreds of pounds out of pocket.
my queiry is that my car is only 3yr old and has full servise history so surely this problem should not have occured and also where do i stand with claiming compo.
WOULD GLADLY ACCEPT ANY HELP ON THIS ISSUE ASAP.
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My sons Corsa 1.2 sxi 2005 33k miles has experianced the same Cam Shaft failure,
It happened on the M5 in rush hour at 75mph.
I have investigated at the Vauxhall garage and talked to the mechanic, I was told that the screws holding down the Cam Shaft bearing Caps were loose, and could be unscrewed by hand. So it seems these bolts are not fitted correctly at the Vauxhall Assembly Plant.
I intend to fight for 100% compensation thru, the Small Claims court.
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>>So it seems these bolts are not fitted correctly at the Vauxhall Assembly Plant.
You can't make this conclusion.
You might be right, but, there are other possibilities, and although you have an interesting piece of evidence, finding the bolts to be loose does not identify the root cause of the problem.
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I am a mechanical design engineer and I do make that conclusion.
1) The car has full Vauxhall Service History, although this problem would never be checked or found during a service.
2) The Vauxhall mechanic has stated on his work sheet, that 3 Cam Shaft Bearing Caps were Loose.
3) These bolts have no lock washers under the heads, and it seems they are only tightened to 8Nm of torque on initial assembly at the Vauxhall Assembly Plant.
4) Following are statements taken from a Corsa Workshop Manual:-
A)"Working in a spiral pattern from the outside to the inside,slacken the each bolts half a turn at a time. Ensure that the camshaft rises uniformly and does not jam in its bearings".
B)"Progressively loosen the bearing cap bolts, a half or one turn at a time,in the inward spiral sequence shown. this is necessary to progressively relieve the tension in the valve springs, and prevent undue stress on the Camshaft".
Just consider if any of these bolts (there are 10 per Camshaft) are not tightened to the correct torque, over the passage of time and miles, they will slowly vibrate loose, in a uncontrolled sequence and cause undue pressure on the Camshaft.
There are Corsa's being driven at the moment with a ticking time bomb under the bonnet.
I have sent a letter of intent to seek 100% compensation thru' the Small Claim Court.
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You are nowhere near finding the root cause for this failure. The questions you should be asking now are;
Why were the bearing cap bolts found to be loose? What had caused the loss of preload in the bolts?
Is there evidence of them having been loose for a period of time?
Is there any associated damage to the cam bearing / housing?
Is there any evidence of fretting at either the joint face, or the interface under the head of the bolts?
Is there any evidence of pull through of the female thread in the cylinder head?
On the cam bearings which were not loose, is there any evidence of damage under the bolt heads? any evidence of bolt bearing stresses being too high?
What is the length of these bolts which were found to be loose? How does that compare with the length of a new bolt?
Did the bolts come loose before the camshaft broke?, or as the camshaft broke were the bearings overloaded?
I would hope very much not to see lock washers under bolts like this, lock washers have absolutely no place in a high performance non-relative-rotating joint.
>>it seems they are only tightened to 8Nm of torque
Depending upon the design of the bolt and joint, that may be correct - are they M6 bolts? (If I remember correctly, the cam bearing caps on my MB diesel are 10Nm)
A well designed and assembled bolted joint will not vibrate loose.
>>I am a mechanical design engineer and I do make that conclusion.
!!!
You can conclude that the joint has failed. At the moment, you can't ascribe a reason, cause, or mechanism for the joint failure.
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Why should I need to to find a reason for the bolt failure. The fact is, the bolts should not have come loose by them selves, these bolts should be to the correct spec,and fitted to the correct torque, which is the responsibilty of Vauxhall UK.
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which is the responsibilty of Vauxhall UK.
It is the responsibilty of the designers/assemblers of the engine. Was yours a Vauxhall or Suzuki engine? You can't very well point the finger of blame at Vauxhall if it wasn't their engine.
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It was in the car that they supplied.
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Vauxhall UK problem,refer to posting above - Mon 16 Mar.
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Vauxhall UK problem refer to posting above - Mon 16 Mar.
In which you said "I have investigated at the Vauxhall garage and talked to the mechanic, I was told that the screws holding down the Cam Shaft bearing Caps were loose, and could be unscrewed by hand. So it seems these bolts are not fitted correctly at the Vauxhall Assembly Plant."
Now who's to say that Vauxhall don't just buy these engines in ready assembled from Suzuki and bolt them into the Corsa engine bay. I can't see why Vauxhall would be assembling these engines at the plant when it's not their own.
Like you, I am surmising as I don't know the facts of where these engines are built either.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/03/2009 at 18:44
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I agree that it is Vauxhall's problem - they supplied this engine.
What I didn't agree with was the wording of your conclusion, which went beyond your evidence.
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Why dont you agree, the car has a full service history by Vauxhall, nobody has taken the Cam shaft cover of or done any work in this area, the last person to work on these bolts prior to the current mechanic would have been at the Vauxhall engine assembly plant.
ps Do you work at Vauxhall !!!
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Here's what you said.
>>So it seems these bolts are not fitted correctly at the Vauxhall Assembly Plant.
There are a number of possible mechanisms where joints within which the bolts have been correctly fitted may fail. I presented a few possibilities in my earlier email - there are more.
You can say that the joint has failed, and no-one can argue with you, but, you cannot say that the joint has failed because the bolts were fitted incorrectly - you don't and cannot KNOW that.
By my objection to the wording of your conclusion, I'm not saying that Vauxhall are or are not to blame, only that the wording of your conclusion was not reasonable, and could not be reached by the evidence presented.
ps Do you work at Vauxhall !!!
No, I don't.
I am interested to find out what the root cause of the problem is from the point of view of my own technical curiosity, and I don't have an axe to grind either way with respect to your quest for some help from Vauxhall.
Of course, your arguments against Vauxhall will be strengthened by using sound engineering logic, and weakened by making statements which aren't supported by the facts.
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from the point of view of my own technical curiosity,
Likewise NC. But surely the finding of several loose camshaft bearing cap bolts in a car that has suffered this catastrophic failure must count as evidence in logic (if not engineering logic in its purest form)?
You yourself suggested, when I said the camshaft wasn't strong enough for the job, that a possible cause of the breakages might be faulty assembly, specifically the bolts coming loose. You gave a long list of possible causes for the breakages, including loose bolts and, if I remember correctly, two general reasons at the end: faulty design, and faulty assembly. Or, of course, 'a combination of two or more of the above' or words to that effect.
No doubt whoever makes these engines for General Motors has now tightened up, tee hee, its assembly checks; no doubt too that the company doesn't want to pay for any more replacement engines than it has to. But to a rational person, it begins to look as if assembly may be at fault in (obviously) a small proportion of these engines. If I had one of these cars I would have the cambox off immediately and torque those bolts down a whisker tighter than specification...
and I might check them again after 3,000 miles or so to see if they had come loose again.
Edited by Lud on 19/03/2009 at 17:29
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>>You yourself suggested
Yes, absolutely, it's one possible cause, not necessarily THE cause.
Yes, it is evidence, again, there's no argument from me on that score, but, it's a starting point for enquiry, not a conclusion. We don't even know if it's a cause or an effect of the failure.
>>now tightened up, tee hee, its assembly checks;
Possibly - if the assembly process has been found to be at the root cause of the fault. If the assembly process isn't at the root of the problem, then any improvements in assembly procedure are tilting at windmills.
>>But to a rational person..
I can see the temptation, and assembly problems are a possibility. In problems with fasteners, it's very easy to blame the operators, and sometimes, that's valid, but, not always.
Yes, I too would be taking the cam cover off, but probably replacing each bolt in turn with new ones, torquing down to the exact specification given by Vauxhall.
>>down a whisker tighter than specification...
If these are M6 bolts, I don't yet know why they aren't torqued to 10Nm, which is a more usual spec - perhaps the female thread in the cylinder head yields in shear before 10Nm can be applied. I would be wary of going beyond spec - it's as likely to cause problems as to fix them, although I have in one case fixed a bolt fatigue failure problem on a rail vehicle suspension by identifying that the preload torque could be usefully increased.
As I'm sure you'll know, bolts don't necessarily need to rotate to become loose in the joint - there are other possible mechanisms.
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>> probably replacing each bolt in turn with new ones, torquing down to the exact specification given by Vauxhall.
Yes. That did occur to me as the correct solution after I had posted, these throwaway stretch bolts, or as you demurely point out, skimping on thread depth or metal quality in the cylinder head casting... I preferred it when things were too strong and made of iron and steel.
Don't you sometimes feel NC that production engineers and upstairs beancounters (perhaps with engineering backgrounds) sometimes yield to the temptation to cut things a little too fine? To put it another way, wouldn't you rather have a Subaru than a Corsa?
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>>yield to the temptation to cut things a little too fine?
In your point, you raise a number of issues.
We don't always know where the cliff edge is. Although we are in a much better position than Victorian engineers who didn't have consistent material to work with, they didn't have the analysis tools, and they didn't have a good understanding of failure mechanisms which are routinely taken into account at desing time today. For example, the use of fracture mechanics methods to model and predict crack growth has really only become widespread and commonly used and accepted in the engineering community since the 1960s.
We never understand how close to the cliff edge our customer is going to go. If all cars were designed with the loads and stresses imposed by Grandma's weekly drive to church, cars would be falling aprt when used with more gusto and panache, but if cars were designed to withstand the rigours of the boy racer, they would be over-designed for everyone else. Somewhere in this broad mixture of usage, between pedantic fussing and abuse, the manufacturer must choose to set a design standard. It's not surprising that they sometimes get it wrong.
It easy not to realise there's a cliff edge there. Most engineering is standards based. If you want to design a welded structure, look at BS7608 to assess its fatigue resistance, look at BS5750 to assess its structural strength, if you want to design a bolted joint, look at VDI 2230, etc, etc. This is fine until you unwittingly go beyond the remit and scope of the standard - for example, the Millenium bridge as originally designed was compliant with the relevant standards of the time, but the phenomenon of lateral excitation by pedestrians beginning walking in step with the vibration was unknown at the time.
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Yes, I was most disappointed not to get to the millennium bridge in time to experience its Tacoma act...'Company.... break step!'
As for car design, I'll take the one designed to withstand the boy racer every time, and so will anyone else with any sense.
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>>As for car design, I'll take the one designed to withstand the boy racer every time, and so will anyone else with any sense.
That's the one that's so heavy it can barely move, and don't even begin to think of the cost!
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Good heavens. I didn't mean survive for ever.
You wouldn't catch a boy racer in a thing like that either. I repeat: wouldn't you rather have a Subaru than a Corsa?
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>>I repeat: wouldn't you rather have a Subaru than a Corsa?
Can I say neither?
However, as the car I drive every day is a W124, perhaps that answers the question obliquely.
Edited by Number_Cruncher on 20/03/2009 at 00:12
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a W124... perhaps that answers the question obliquely.
It'll do, NC, it'll do...
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