Thats not reference to the cop van pictured stuck in the floods at the time?
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I'm pretty sure that the woman officer of the two that got lumbered with the irate romanian is the one who looked after me when I crashed Polo (for the first time!) on the M6 all those years ago. They were fab, and stayed with me the whole time til the recovery truck came.
Could be wrong but she's very familiar.
And yes, I can see how the Lone Ranger might regret making that comment!
Edited by PoloGirl on 14/01/2008 at 21:34
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The little 18 year old is going to cry in a minute... and I'm going laugh.
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Time for BobbyG to jump to conclusions - the 18 year old driving a Civic Type R.
Presumably insured. Daddys little spoilt brat who has no respect for anyone or anything other than money.
Feel better now!
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MLC, did you feature tonight?
If so, don't want to know which one, just curious!
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Time for BobbyG to jump to conclusions - the 18 year old driving a Civic Type R. Presumably insured. Daddys little spoilt brat who has no respect for anyone or anything other than money.
I cant have been the only one willing that lad to swear a third time and get arrested - if ever there was a case for creating an offense for being an ass, he is the case.
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No, I'm too ugly to appear on camera. :)
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My gratitude to police cops in this area...
Without any real details but step son was not well two years ago. Mid 2006 wats driving south with passport from Manchester (unknown to us until late... actually every early morning) and after a "few drinks".... we got hold of him in the end on M6 Toll and said stop and call police on mobile. He did.
We then got a call where we could collect him! We met on M6 J19 but they had come from M6 Toll!!! And the car parked on the toll services to collect. He was lucky. But there's more to this than I am saying.
He's more than fine now though :-)
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That Civic driver really needs a good kicking.
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That languid cop from Birmingham....did you see his driving style ? Cool or what ?
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The one with the moustache? Yes.
Very annoying boy that, Kevin the teenager with brains. It might almost have been staged.
He will either come to grief or go far, perhaps both.
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I share Lud's admiration for 'Kevin'.
From Kevin's perspective, he has done nothing worthy of an agressive arrest. He is guilty of 'apathy' rather than 'criminality'. As it turned out, he was only fined £30.
The Traffic Cop was frustrated because he couldn't get help. Not Kevin's fault. The Traffic Cop was frightened because he thought the situation might escalate to become 'life-threatening'. This was in the Traffic Cop's mind, but not Kevin's.
This was a difficult situation, but I'd liked to have seen the Traffic Cop giving that (mostly) law-abiding citizen Kevin a bit more respect and the benefit of the doubt.
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How come the DVLA and the Insurers computer ( the one now used in conjunction with police forces to check if a vehicle is insured ) didn't pick up on the fact that the wrong plates had been fitted to the car in question. If he had the wrong plates from day of purchase, so must some one else .
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Yes, thought the arrest was a little 'brusque' However, two young guys in a Civic R type having just left a petrol station without paying with dodgy plates, would i suspect in 99% of cases mean serious trouble and a car chase. This was the 1% of cases that there was not a 'serious' reason. (of course driving round on false plates is serious and stupid but I mean not serious in a car jacking threaten the owners with a gun type of way)
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As said above Kevin the teenager. I would have done the same as the police. Drove away without paying for fuel and wrong number plates. His attitude was also terrible. One day he will take that attitude with the wrong person and end up with a sore face. But people like that always learn the hard way.
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Slight technical question here - why did the police stop him and park in front of him rather than behind? Thought they always had to park behind with lights on etc for H&S reasons if nothing else? If they had chucked something out of their window would the police have noticed?
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Slight technical question here - why did the police stop him and park in front of him rather than behind? Thought they always had to park behind with lights on etc for H&S reasons if nothing else?
They assumed he was going to be a hard nut and do a runner in his car. As TU says below - they were pumped up for a fight or flight.
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I have to say that although kevin was sullen and difficult, it was a situation that was caused by the way the police handled it.
He hadnt bilked, the car wasnt stolen. Kevin was however *immediatley* treated with over the top aggresion and hostility by the younger copper. To be honest the attitide of that cop was all wrong, and I bet he always gets a shedload of agro at every stop and arrest.
It went from bad to worse as the police tried to justify their response by goading Kevin.
Frankly if I was the coppers superior I would have him transferred to a walking beat in some slum area for the next 4 years to learn some humility and people handling skills.
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I have to say that although kevin was sullen and difficult it was a situation that was caused by the way the police handled it.
I totally agree with that - and you can only imagine how that would have gone without the camera being there.
That's lad's encounter will colour his opinion of the Police for a long time, and there may be situations where they need his co-operation and support in the future.
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I am another who thinks that the "Kevin" had a point. The cops were expecting a chase, had themselves pumped up for far more then actually happened, as a result an 18yr old who had done nothing wrong was talked down to and man handled by aggressive cops.
Clearly not all the info about the drive off had been passed through, he stated he had left his name and address, and why was the fact the car had been stopped only a week ago not flagged up far earlier by the Police!!
A comedy of errors on the Police part that left probably a life long imprint on the teenager - not very good relationship building!!!
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I thought the guy who lost his ladders was treated harshly. You can bet that in future he'll have his ladders fixed securely and will check them every time he stops. He'd learned his lesson, nobody was hurt, so why fine him? Another victimless 'crime' and another driver with a lower opinion of the police.
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Shouldn't the nature of the offence take precedence, rather than the outcome? Accident pyramid and all that. Idiot put others in danger and to retrieve the ladders before someone crashed created appalling risks. Has to take responsibility, as Cheddar would say....
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I disagree. Nothing happened, nobody was hurt. The guy made an honest mistake which he is highly unlikely to make again. There was no criminal intent. What does fining him achieve? Nothing, only resentment towards the police. A ticking-off would have sent him on his way with a positive view of them.
Edited by nick on 15/01/2008 at 10:50
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Losing the load is a criminal offence and is liable to to be punished, and this should not just depend on whether or not someone was hurt. Had someone been killed or injured, then it would be something much more serious than a slap on the wrist, I would hope. Should he also be let off after a death, if he is unlikely to commit (your assumption) the offence again? Or resent being punished, or even, God forbid, dislike the police and the courts forever? On that basis no-one would be given a ticket for parking:) Crocodile tears for the incompetent.
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If someone was hurt - a very different case. He's learnt his lesson in this case. No, he is very unlikely to do it again, IMHO. He was shaken by what had happened. We all make mistakes when driving and mostly get away with it. Occasionally we don't and get punished in one way or another. Nothing was gained here except a waste of admin time, £60 for HMG and satisfaction for a jobsworth. I'll just agree to differ with other opinions.
My last words on the topic.
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Would the man who lost the ladder have been traced and fined if he had not done the right thing by stopping? It's unlikely.
He made a genuine error and decided to stop and face up to the consequences. No doubt he raised the alarm about the ladder in the road as well. He had learnt his lesson before the ticket was handed out.
By giving him the ticket the moral of the story was: don't stop and take responsibility next time.
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I thought the guy who lost his ladders was treated harshly.
As long as "HE TAKES STEPS" to avoid this again in the future then the £60 fine was well spent!
PS Where's my coat
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I expect he'll " tread carefully" in future FB -- I'll do some work now................;-)
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I assume it was him who RUNG the police?
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What I can't understand about the "Kevin" incident was whay the petrol station had called the police to report a bilker (btw what is that an abreviation of?) when he had tried to pay, had presumably some sort of card issue, left his name and address etc.
And the other police driver who was involved in stopping the stolen Suzuki Swift, just staring into the middle distance whilst driving along, not once did I see his eyes move away from straight forward, no checking of mirrors, nothing, very strange.
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I think in the "Kevin incident" that there was 50 - 50 blame. Kevin was sullen and unhelpful but I was very annoyed at the police officers patronising demeanour when he started calling Kevin a little boy and that he needed to grow up. I would have had to restrain myself if I was treated in that manner.
Carse
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Regarding Kevin and the policeman's aggression - I didn't see the show but the comments reminded me of an incident involving police aggression...
Having worked very late I was slightly lost, driving through central London at 3am in an Astra hire car - it was raining and the wipers were awful, smearing everything... Stopped at a red light, I was aware of a police van next to me. Light went green and I pulled away, next thing I know my rear view is filled with blue lights and my ears filled with siren. Wanting to let him get past to whoever he was after, I pulled over and came to a stop directly in front of a left turn. The police van pulled up right behind me still with lights and siren blaring. I thought he wanted to go left and I was blocking his path so pulled forwards to get beyond the junction.
Cue chaos... police van pulls across in front of me, officer leaps out of his van pulls open the car door grabs the keys and then grabs me and pulls me out of the car and starts basically screaming in my face - demanding to know why I blatantly ran a red light under his nose and tried to get away...
I'm a 5 foot 5, middle aged, grey haired, slightly posh bloke from Manchester... I didn't have a clue what was going on? We eventually established that whatever had gone green and caused me to pull away wasn't the light I'd been waiting at.
With hindsight it's easy to see he was full of adrenaline and could have thought I was playing silly beggars with the stop/start thing having run a light under his nose - but I was shocked and deeply shaken by the whole thing because at the time I had no idea that I had been in the wrong.
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I think in the "Kevin incident" that there was 50 - 50 blame. Kevin was sullen and unhelpful but I was very annoyed at the police officers patronising demeanour when he started calling Kevin a little boy and that he needed to grow up. I would have had to restrain myself if I was treated in that manner.
The Policeman had a poor time but that might have been 30-45 minutes in total - just think of the poor teachers (who cannot retire at 50 on half pay!) who had to deal with this unpleasnt boy for maybe 13 years (start to finish).
I think there might be case for charging the parents for not bringing up a child properly.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 15/01/2008 at 18:48
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I think there might be case for charging the parents for not bringing up a child properly.
Try teaching manners to your own kid and the "social workers" will try their best to put you in jail accusing of cruelty to kids.
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I was quite surprised to see this programme as I didn't think there were any Motorway Cops today. Do you think it was just staged by Nu Labour for the public's benefit?
I haven't seen a police car on a motorway for years. Indeed, you can see some of my posts where I have commented about this. I've seen plenty of Highway Agency cars.
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>> I think there might be case for charging the parents for not bringing up a child properly. Try teaching manners to your own kid and the "social workers" will try their best to put you in jail accusing of cruelty to kids.
I had 3 x boys (or rather the wife did) and they were all taught manners - sometimes they bruised other times they were just red!
Result - 3 well adjusted kids, now in their 30's, in good jobs (paid a lot more than I earned!!) with their own families and responsibilities that entails.
They are beyond reprimands of the sort they had whilst young but they are still reminded "when their standards are out of line".
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Be careful what you admit to, Falkirk! Someone will come and fine you.
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I think 'Lone Ranger' is a very appropriate moniker for the two uniformed cowboys.
To accuse 'Kevin' of childish behaviour was very much a pot/kettle situation.
If I were their senior officer I would ensure they never teamed up together again but were placed with a more mature and experienced colleague.
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>> I think there might be case for charging the parents for not bringing up a child properly. Try teaching manners to your own kid and the "social workers" will try their best to put you in jail accusing of cruelty to kids.
My kids new right from wrong - sometimes they were red other times black & blue (only joking). Seriously a cuff over the head at the right time counted for more good than "reasoning" after they had had 2/3 warnings.
I "suffered" sorry "benefited" the same "education" when I was young. My kids received a good deal less but enough so that they turned out to be 3 x good sons - now if I had had a daughter life might have been more difficult for me.
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Just a quick question MLC, in a thread a couple of weeks ago you stated that you prefer drivers to stay in their cars when stopped - yet the first thing the officer did to the "Kevin" was to take him out of the car by the side of a busy motorway - is this not far more dangerous then just reaching in and taking the keys whilst keeping the occupants seated?
Then finding out all the facts of the situation?
It struck me as not so much an arrest but far more of an ego trip.
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I cant have been the only one willing that lad to swear a third time and get arrested - if ever there was a case for creating an offense for being an ass he is the case.
Personally I would'nt have minded if the cops had dragged him into the undergrowth and beaten him senseless!!!
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The Kevin episode badley handled by the Police,they need some military softly softly training,same goes for the WPC with a log on each shoulder.
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gotta be said the cops showed themselves up as proper pink fluffy dice
the guy with the ladder had stopped! 99.9% of toerags would have driven off, very harsh treatment of him
the teenager being given the "grow up" treatment, guess what i was on the kids side, the cops in a rational world would i) go and talk to the car dealer about why they have put the wrong plates on ii) not issue tickets which give many days to get the fault fixed if they know it needs fixing straight away - and in general the cops approach was poor
the guy in argument with translator i think there is a fairly high chance the translator was poor, i would get frustrated in that situation too, and the woman copper getting cheesed off with her percieved sex discrimination should really grow up big time
very unimpressive lot
caught remarkably few real tough nut thugs if it was a balanced account of what they come across
definitely the message is drive off after accident and take your chances, all the wrong messages to the public
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guess what i was on the kids side the cops in a rational world would i) go and talk to the car dealer about why they have put the wrong plates on ii) not issue tickets which give many days to get the fault fixed if they know it needs fixing straight>>
the guy in argument with translator i think there is a fairly high chance the translator was poor i would get frustrated in that situation too and the woman copper getting cheesed off with her percieved sex discrimination should really grow up big time
talking to the car dealer is not a viable option, it could be hundreds of miles away and in any case would be too time consuming. You deal with what you've got in front of you. A VDRS (Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme) form gives you 14 days to put a fault right and once you've done so you get an MOT station to state the work has been done. Been in for years and was introduced to prevent minor offences going to court. Standard practice.... If Kevin had any sense he'd have changed the plate immediately, however it would be advantageous to him not to change it wouldn't it, no bus lanes, no speed cameras..if you get my drift.
when i was brand new, many moons ago, i was posted with a female officer to learn my trade...i was immediately struck by how many people would address me and not her... despite the fact i was obviously brand new, being 18.5 yrs old, and she was most experienced... i thought it to be rude and unnecessary and still do...it does not tend to happen from people brought up in this country... and for me it doesn't matter what job you are in, i see no reason why anyone should have to put up with it...after all at one point this country had a female prime minister and a female head of state...
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"He hadnt bilked, the car wasnt stolen. Kevin was however *immediately* treated with over the top aggresion and hostility by the younger copper. "
How ere the police supposed to know that - as far as they were concerned he was a "bilker"(??) and had false plates. Kevin was immediately aggressive himself and the cop felt that he was in danger of being pushed into the carriageway. Perhaps if Kevin, instead of being full of self-righteous indignation, had said "Sorry officer, I know what this is about and can explain" he would have been treated a bit more sympathetically in the police car. As it was, he knew the plate was "false" and was still driving it- did he expect police to ignore this? Why hadn't he changed the plate?
As for "I thought the guy who lost his ladders was treated harshly. He'd learned his lesson, nobody was hurt, so why fine him? " I must remember that getout when I get a parking fine. Maybe it could be called "The Hain" - slight administrative error, didn't realise, sorry, please let me off. Did he stop because of the danger caused or because he had lost £100 worth of his employer's ladders - who knows??
My reaction to Kevin was same as someone above - I would have been very tempted to give him "a good kicking" but then my wife said "Calm down, calm down, I have to deal with at least a dozen jkids with that attitude every day" - yes, she is a teacher!
All IMVHO of course
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The difference between parking infringements and the guy who lost his ladder is the intent. You knowingly (usually) park on a double yellow line but he didn't intend to lose his ladders. It looked like he was a roofer, presumably he's driven many miles without his ladders falling off. Perhaps a fastening failed, a rope broke, a bungee failed, who knows? It's called an accident, stuff happens. He stopped, did the responsible thing and got fined for it. Why didn't the police check the fastening on the other set of ladders on his vehicle? If they were ok it seems unlikely that he'd fasten the lost set any differently. What a great advert for doing the right thing (not). The lesson for anyone watching is - drive on and hope nobody reports you.
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"The difference between parking infringements and the guy who lost his ladder is the intent. You knowingly (usually) park on a double yellow line but he didn't intend to lose his ladders."
Maybe, but I didn't intend to be 5 minutes over the time limit in that carpark in Bath which eventually cost me £60.
"It's called an accident, stuff happens"
Bit like that trucker who drove into the back of a family car killing them and was jailed yesterday?
"He stopped, did the responsible thing "
Oh blooming heck, ladders fell off - better go back and get them or the boss will play hell.
"Why didn't the police check the fastening on the other set of ladders on his vehicle. If they were ok it seems unlikely that he'd fasten the lost set any differently."
He didn't fasten them on - someone else did - someone who didn't care? Someone who had never done it before? Maybe Kevin, who was fed up with his rubbish job and need a fag so didn't bother to do the job properly - driver is responsible for his load.
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Enough already.
That's your fourth post since 15.09 when you said 'that's my last word on the subject'
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And this is my fifth - tell someone who cares :-)
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re "when i was brand new, many moons ago, i was posted with a female officer to learn my trade...i was immediately struck by how many people would address me and not her... despite the fact i was obviously brand new, being 18.5 yrs old, and she was most experienced... i thought it to be rude and unnecessary and still do...it does not tend to happen from people brought up in this country... and for me it doesn't matter what job you are in, i see no reason why anyone should have to put up with it...after all at one point this country had a female prime minister and a female head of state... "
ffs
many times ive had a young public school trainee with me in my trade, and despite me i) being much more qualified ii) being much more senior iii) having a clue what im talking about - you still get pink fluffy dice types talking to the public school accent rather than the one with the working class accent who happens to be in charge - this is much the same scenario - but guess what im grown up and patient about it
peoples cultural perceptions are not always there for an evil nasty reason they are just absorbed in
still think that woman copper was out of line loosing her rag for no reason, she had no clue what the guy was saying
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One thing that makes me smile is that these kinds of programmes never fail to bring out all the armchair experts. All I'll say about the 'Kevin' incident is that it was (by necessity) heavily edited. A good deal of 'Kevins' attitude was cut out because it couldn't be shown, including a obnoxious and vicious verbal attack on the cameraman.
Guess what, when dealing with these incidents we don't have the benefit of the edit button, hindsight or make the decisions in our warm, comfy armchairs.
As far as CMPG go, there are on average 9-10 cars out per shift, that have to cover 450 miles of motorway, so just because you don't see them, doesn't mean we're not there.
"The Policeman had a poor time but that might have been 30-45 minutes in total - just think of the poor teachers (who cannot retire at 50 on half pay!) who had to deal with this unpleasnt boy for maybe 13 years (start to finish)."
Teachers, at times, have an unpleasant job. But in the last few weeks how many have been shot and stabbed. Three Police shot and half a dozen stabbed this year. Not to mention the hundreds assaulted everyday. You don't hear about it, because it's just not newsworthy anymore.
If it makes you feel any better, I can reassure you that those involved will take a long time to live their appearances down. :)
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Good post mlc. And very restrained!
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As far as CMPG go there are on average 9-10 cars out per shift that have to cover 450 miles of motorway so just because you don't see them doesn't mean we're not there.
I wasn't knocking the motorway police, I was complaining because, clearly, such patrols have been cut to the bone.
I actually saw a motorcycle cop riding through the village last week. That's the first I've seen in quite a few years.
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I was also of the opinion that the roofer had done the just thing. And paid the price. He could have just driven away, and still put a call in saying he passed the ladders on the carriageway.
Yet the other coppers let the Romanian man go on his way in the same situation with his kids unsecured.
If the Kevins of this world just paid some respect they might get fairly treated. Start off on the wrong foot, then you should suffer the outcome.
As a lad I would never have spoken to a copper in that manner. It seems common place these days. He deserved to be arrested for his behaviour. Or the car impounded until he got the correct plates in the first place.
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I thought you had given your last word on this nick? Anyone driving goods vehicles (as i have) knows that your job involves tying the load securely. If you don't, its not a matter of mistake or forgetting: its a straight dereliction of duty. Just how hard is it to tie a ladder? I used to deliver RSJ's and fabrications: I was well aware of the mayhem it would cause if I lost the load! Now if the police had been intolerant, they could well have prosecuted, not given a fixed penalty. He HAS had a letting off. Additionally, if he was an employee, they could have started inquiries with his employer to determine what their joint record was. He got off lightly, for an offence that could have caused deaths of innocent parties. Its not an honest mistake, whatever that is: its a crime of omission, on a tradesman who should know what is expected. That the police were there to prevent a tragedy is outside his gift. I suspect he could have been traced in the event of a crash, had the police needed to do this. Of course people drive off after an offence: this chap coughed, to a point, and received a lesser penalty. Stop the drivel now.
Edited by nortones2 on 15/01/2008 at 20:52
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Yes, and how many times have you been parked up and had someone tamper with your load. It happens all the time. You see trucks with broken seals on rear doors,straps loosened and side curtains flapping in the wind. Drivers are unaware sometimes.
Hypothetically, what if the roofer had tied his load down securely, stopped for service station, and while inside someone attempted unsuccessfully to nick his stuff. And was disturbed. But in the process made the load unsecured. The roofer would have been oblivious.
He had another ladder on the van that did not come off. I feel he was a genuine bloke. And he kept protesting he had secured it.
It does not alter the fact that this could have caused a serious collision. But he would of had to suffer the consequences.
Maybe this theory is not that hypothetical.
Many things are pinched along our motorways and the service areas are an Aladdins cave to the opportunist thief.
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"Hypothetically, what if the roofer had tied his load down securely, stopped for service station, and while inside someone attempted unsuccessfully to nick his stuff. And was disturbed. But in the process made the load unsecured."
Excuses, excuses - and not a defence - someone might have spiked my drink gov, I swear I only had half a pint - it's not my fault honest
"The roofer would have been oblivious."
But still responsible
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>>Stop the drivel now
Thank you for your measured and considered opinion, I think what you think is wonderful too :-)
BTW that's my sixth post since my 'last' before someone who can count points it out!
But this really is my last now, we'll have to agree to differ, or not, as the case may be. I'm off to discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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My concern about the WPC was the hyperbole she used in describing the risks of not having rear child seats.
She said something like "...You're imposing a death sentence on your children by not having rear child seats..."
Funny how many children have survived literally 100s of billions of car journeys all over the world throughout motoring histroy WITHOUT rear child seats...
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