We have timers (mechanical type) on lamps with low energy bulbs fitted - never had a problem.
I suggest you read what the ban acutally bans (I don't know, but I've used low energy bulbs almost everywhere for years) - daily press reports about what the ban means generally can't be relied upon, just like reports that they contain mercury etc etc are no more than scaremongering.
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We've used low energy bulbs in areas where a light is on for long periods, such as the porch, for many years (keep buying in stocks at 39p each for Philips bulbs at Morrisons) and had no problems with them.
However, we've never used them with dimming switches or living areas as the light output is not as good as traditional bulbs; we have to use two 150w bulbs in the main living room otherwise it would not be quite bright enough for reading etc.
So a stock of tungsten bulbs is also being built up...:-)
One problem that does arise is that when these low energy bulbs are nearing the end of their life, they cause considerable intermittent interference on both mains and portable radios on both FM and AM channels.
Replacing the offending bulb stops this nuisance, but I'm sure it probably affects our neighbours just as much; the reverse would clearly also apply.
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I suggest you read what the ban acutally bans
>>.. daily press reports about what the ban means generally can't be relied upon ....
>>
Then where would the information be?
My information, in the form of little images with a big X through them, is from the box the bulb comes in hence my questions.
There is no further information leaflet inside the box so I am refering to the experts in the back room.
So absolutely nothing to do with any press reports.
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"The knee jerk response by our government to ban normal bulbs seems to ignore many situations."
This comment lead me to believe you had read something about the ban, but probably not what was actually proposed.
As you have highlighted there are many situations where incandescent blubs are not used so a move to all bulbs becoming low energy would prove difficult.
See: www.banthebulb.org/
and the 27 September press release for detailed information.
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I bought a Wilko bulb The packaging states ?Restrictions on use.? 1. With dimmers. I assume this is the same reasons as fluorescents. 2. Photo electric circuits. Why? 3. Timers. Does this apply to clockwork versions.
1) Probably.
2) No idea, it doesn't seem likely that there'd be a problem.
3) I don't see why it would apply to any timer - the timer is just a switch, after all.
I wouldn't bother with timers, IIWY - these things are so cheap to run (and they take ages to "warm up") that they can simply be left on all the time (24x7x365 in non-sleeping accommodation).
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Low energy bulbs won't work with any electronic device that controls its output by varying the size of the pulses it sends to the bulb, so common or garden dimmers and electronic timers won't work. Purely mechanical timers will work because they are just a few bent bits of metal and a clock, no electronic control.
We use the 39p Philips one from Morrissons extensively around the house, some are 2 years old now, and the 'warm up' period seems to be increasing.
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Photocells aren't recommended for CFL bulbs because the frequent switching on and off shortens their life. Likewise, putting them in fittings where the heat can't dissipate can damage some types (more so the ones where the flourescent tube is already encased in a glass outer).
Dimmer switches cause problems because the lower power supplied on the dim setting doesn't allow the capacitor to fire up the bulb.
Simple plug-in mechanical timers work fine; I have several lamps with CFLs dotted around the house so there's always a light on when I get home in the dark, and they've worked fine for the past three years.
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Thanks for replies.
The answers seem to confirm my thinking
>>daveyjp. See: www.banthebulb.org/
Thanks for the link.
Is a lot to digest but seems to be a lot of back slapping and not answers to some of my questions.
One stated aim 3. Help the poor - Help the poor to replace their incandescents.
The bill for that could be very very large.
www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/faqs/cfl.h...1
is an interesting site and starts to answer some aspects..
"...you must buy a bulb that's specifically made to work with dimmers"
"GE makes a dimming compact fluorescent light bulb (called the GE Longlife Plus Soft White Energy Saving Bulb) that is specially designed for use with dimming switches.
I have not seen these or any sign of them.
"Compact fluorescent light bulbs may generally be used in enclosed fixtures as long as the enclosed fixture is not recessed. Totally enclosed recessed fixtures (for example, a ceiling can light with a cover over the bulb) create temperatures that are too high to allow the use of a compact fluorescent bulb.
also
20 watts incandescent = 5 watts compact fluorescent
28 watts incandescent = 7 watts compact fluorescent
36 watts incandescent = 9 watts compact fluorescent
40 watts incandescent = 10 watts compact fluorescent
52 watts incandescent = 13 watts compact fluorescent
60 watts incandescent = 15 watts compact fluorescent
75 watts incandescent = 20 watts compact fluorescent
100 watts incandescent = 26-29 watts compact fluorescent
150 watts incandescent = 38-42 watts compact fluorescent
250-300 watts incandescent = 55 watts compact fluorescent
Yet all of their boxes I have say 100watts = 20. So who is telling porkies ?
I have not seen any bulbs above 20W ( i.e. 75W) :-(
"Compact fluorescent light bulbs work best if they are left on for over 15 minutes each time they are turned on. These types of lamps can take up to 3 minutes to warm-up. Warm-up will probably not be noticeable from a user stand point, but the lamp needs to warm-up in order to reach the point of most efficient operation. Frequently switching them on and off will shorten the life of the product. If the life of the lamp is shortened significantly, you will not reap the financial benefits (includes energy & life of lamp), that are common to CFL lamps."
I guess this applies to movement type applications but most surely activate flood lights. The common "The sun has gone down so switch on the porch light" is not in this category.
Several years ago some "bright spark" in the corporation I worked for instigated movement sensors for the lighting in all the toilets. Then the maintenance bill came in for regular replacements of tubes and then the bill for disabling the sensors.
I think there is a lot of detailed education is needed on the topic and they poor will take a disproportionate hit.
Meanwhile unless I can find some small round bulbs I need to buy a new chandalier.
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What do you do with these bulbs when you want to dispose of them ?
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You can't just throw them in the bin - they have to be taken to the local council recycling centre.
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You can, you're just not meant to, but how many will bother recycling them?
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Maybe this is "hi-jacking the thread" but I wonder if the use of these bulbs is because of concerns for the environment or to save money. Personally I don't like them - they are dim and take ages to warm up and also don't last half as long as they say they do. At the moment, every time we see ordinary bulbs in the supermarket (or "on sale") we buy a few to stock up on. I also saw in a paper (Sunday Times ? Torygraph?) that UK is banning the manufacture of "ordinary bulbs" but no other country is doing so - so will buy a few when abroad on a booze cruise in future. If you think it will save you a few bob to buy the new things, fair enough , but if doing it for environmental reasons there must be better and more effective ways (how about a few government offices/ local gov offices switching off lights at night for instance).
How much money does use of these new things actually save?
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>>that UK is banning the manufacture of "ordinary bulbs">>
The vast majority of bulbs I see for sale are not produced in the UK. Perhaps the intention is to stop them being imported, although I would have thought this was difficult.
As for using them when their use is prohibited or at least frowned upon, how would anyone know and what, for instance, would any proposed level of "punishment" be?
By the way, the current trend of selling low energy bulbs at prices as low as 39p is due to the underwriting of the cost by energy companies - a year or two back a certain GB, when Chancellor, threatened windfall taxes if energy saving measures were not encouraged by the companies.
These measures also included providing qualifying customers with free home loft and wall insulation.
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"would any proposed level of "punishment" be?"
They could probably ban their sale. Trading Standards would prosecute - Dare I say it would be a "light" sentence ? !
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You can you're just not meant to but how many will bother recycling them?
It is an offence not to, they contain mercury.
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What do you do with these bulbs when you want to dispose of them ?
It is best to take them (!) to a place of recycling. The whole lot are "recycled", which seems to me to be a waste. One would've thought that just the "tube" would need "recycling", not the whole works. I think I've seen industrial units where the "glass" just plugs in, and is replaceable. This seems to make more sense. With an ordinary fluorescent tube, the whole lot, including case, choke, odds and ends of electrical gubbins, isn't chucked out, is it!
I am sure that most people just bung 'em in the bin after a year or so of normal use, when the "warm up" period has increased to some minutes.
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CFLs will work with some electronic photocells and timers. I have two outdoor lights, one each side of the garage door and wired in parallel, controlled by one dusk/dawn photocell mounted above the door. It's made by Star and works perfectly except when a spider decided to make a home in the sensor shroud.
Some CFLs and fluorescents are also dimmable. The fluorescent lights in my office at work are. One push of the switch and they come on at their last setting. Hold the switch down and they cycle dimmer then brighter until you release the switch.
I can see an advantage to using CFLs in unheated areas or outdoor applications but can't see any real point in using them in living areas. Unless you need the aircon on the extra heat isn't exactly being wasted.
I think the push to ban incandescents is another case of dumb politicians grabbing headlines and bowing to the eco and industry lobbyists.
Kevin...
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>>Some CFLs and fluorescents are also dimmable>>
My wife has spent some time in two local hospitals - one opened only two years ago had the facility to continuously vary the intensity of the lighting contained within the large overhead multi-purpose panel (clearly flourescent type bulb or bulbs).
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I've got two low energy bulbs on my hall/stairs/landing, with two-way switching.
The landing light flashes when switched off. This is only visible at night as a very brief on every five to ten seconds. It appears to happen regardless of when the lights were last switched off, so I presume it's not some sort of capacitive discharge (we notice it during our nocturnal perambulations, our bladders being as old as us).
I've tried swapping bulbs around, but it only happens in this fitting, so I've ruled out the bulb.
Can anyone explain this phenomenon?
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>>The landing light flashes when switched off. This is only visible at night as a very brief on every five to ten seconds.
I have found this too BT. had me worried as I thought there may have been a fault in the lighting circuit causing this effect. Changing the bulb solved the problem but using the old bulb in another fitting could not replicate the momentary flash.
Such is life - how sad is lying in bed watching this glow worm come to life at irregular intervals.
Happy Motoring Phil I
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Dimmers for fluorescents bulbs, I believe, work in a different way to normal dimmers.
Flourescents need a minimum voltage once activated by the initial high voltage, therefore
the output of the dimmer unit must work above this minimum voltage., probably vary the voltage across a narrower range. Whether they work for all Fluorescents, i am not sure.
Normal dimmers just vary the voltage from 0 to max (is it a thyristor or zener diode, can't remember).
(Got this info from a instruments electrician, so it is not first hand).
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Normal dimmers just vary the voltage from 0 to max (is it a thyristor or zener diode can't remember). (Got this info from a instruments electrician so it is not first hand).
Common or garden dimmers, as I described them above, apply full voltage to the bulb all the time, but vary the width of the pulses of voltage ( google 'pulse width modulation' for more detail) to vary the brightness. This works fine and dandy with a simple filament bulb, but not with flourescents. Usually a thyristor is the device used to change the width of the pulses.
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A Zener diode will keep a voltage "capped", when it's reverse biased as opposed to allowing one to vary a voltage.
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The base of the LE bulb contains the electronics that make the lamp work.
I broke one open a few days ago and had another look. It had 24 components, including a small transformer, two chokes, some diodes and control semi-conductors, and a capacitor rated at 105 degrees C max. A bargain for one pound fifty or so.
The thermal conditions under which those parts work depends not only on the enclosure, or otherwise, that the lamp is in, but also on whether the bulb is inverted or not. Heat rises and may affect bulb life.
I have yet to see any 'which?' type tests as to whether most failures are in the tubes or the components. Even those tests could vary from one manufacture to another, as lamp circuits and parts will differ somewhat.
If the light tube is modeled on the larger fluorescent tube, as it most likely is, the glass tubing will contain mercury vapor. So, the newspaper reporting (above) was not scaremongering.
Timers: The modern lamp timer often now uses a semi-conductor switch ( cheaper) rather than a relay. And they are more fussy about what they switch. If you can hear a click when the timer comes on, then almost certainly, it is using a relay. Similarly with movement detectors for security lights.
As has been said, if you are using a relay you can mostly do what you like as long as you do not exceed the power rating. There is a question mark over relay switching and inductive loads because of sparking the contacts but I can't see an LE lamp being enough to bother about. I have been using relays with both outside and inside LE's for years. Indeed two 60w (100w ?) lamps have been outside for well over ten years using the same lamps and are still going strong.
Two inside (relay) lamps come on at dusk and go off about midnight and have been doing that for what must be nearly 20 years (with about two bulb changes). No other problems.
I try and remember to write the date on the lamp base with a pencil when I install them.
In summary, relay on-off control, no problems, semi-conductor control may be. It depends. But my hall and bedroom dimmers work a treat.
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