I have looked at many 4x4s. i find the discovery 3 to be really capable with the wading depth being 700mm however the reliability issues kind of mess the whole idea of getting one. what do you think??? i have then come to the Japanese rivals shogun and land cruiser which also have a 700mmm wading depth. the land cruiser technically provides better economy at 31 mpg. according to my research i could be wrong what would you say is a good 4x4 which offers more than 650mm wading depth and has decent or excellent reliability.
thank you
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/12/2007 at 09:48
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have you considered a canoe for these off road into river moments?
i believe halfords are doing a good roof rack deal at the moment
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We went through this three years ago. Finally ended up with a Shogun Sport 2-5 TD.
Excellent off road and good enough on road. We often have to ford a river thats up to a coupla feet deep and the Shogun makes mincemeat of the crossing.I know that its old compared to all the new stuff but in three years and 62,000 miles all it has needed is routine servicing.
Also a friend of ours has a Toyota Land Cruiser thats 5 years old done 110,000 miles and apart from routine servicing all its needed is a new headlamp bulb. Our experiance is look Japanese if you want bullet proof motoring.
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I think the Land cruiser will take some beating - it is one Toyota that really does have fantastic reliability and durability.
If my life depended on getting through a very difficult off road course over many miles I would choose a Land Cruiser over a Disco anyday.
We have 2 Disco 3's in the family and both have been plagued by problems - mainly around the 4 wheel drive system and iffy elctrics. On one the car kept lowering itself without warning or command.
If you think what the UN choose - it's usually Land Cruisers (and some Nissans).
I read in a book about company brands once & in the section about Toyota it stated that there is a very long and dangerous road in the Aussie outback with a sign placed by the local authority reading "Only Land Cruisers allowed"
Say's it all really.
Edited by Pendlebury on 18/12/2007 at 20:58
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Found this great little story about the Land Cruiser - I'm not Toyota's biggest fan but this is how they conduct their business and you can't fault em for it.
I doubt Land rover would go to such lengths.
"It's a story Toyota loves to retell: a dozen of the first FJ25 models were imported to the Snowy Mountains hydro-electric project. Like all the other 4WDs, they broke down. "But it was Toyota's response to these problems that set the company apart from its rivals," sales and marketing executive vice-president Dave Buttner related this week. "Toyota flew out engineers from Japan who lived on-site to study and rectify the problems. They also flew out parts and sent the broken bits back to Japan -- to analyse them and fix the problems at the source."
Suitably impressed, construction magnate Sir Leslie Theiss began importing Toyotas in Queensland and NSW, and LandCruisers were increasingly used by resource companies and farmers opening up the bush. Half a million -- 10 per cent of all the LandCruisers ever made -- have been bought by Australians. Australia buys more LandCruisers than any market outside the Middle East."
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Maybe give up the fixation with advertised wading depths - would it ever make a difference in the real world? Re-formulate your buying criteria to something more relevant - would you ever get out to measure water depth before 'wading' ?
Free consultation. Merry Christmas!
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I've just bought a Shogun using similar criteria to yours - the wading depth was important as of the 3 roads that can be used to get into our village, one of them requires crossing a ford (and of the others - one is now down to a single lane controlled by temporary traffic lights due to the heavy rain 8 months ago). So having a car that could be used in the bad weather was important.
I wanted a fairly inexpensive second car - so that ruled the Landcruiser out for me!
With regards to woodbines - It does make a difference in the real world. I know I have got our of vehicles in the past before going through water to check the depth of it. With a 700mm quoted depth, the electrics should be far enough out of the way to be able to traverse through the 700mm with out any problems!
If wading is important, perhaps the OP could fit a snorkel? They are only about £200-£250 + fitting.
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LWB Defender.
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I knew someone who was a member of the UK`Road Tractor Club` he fitted a landrover with one of those snorkels that exit on the roof, so it could wade.
Edited by oilrag on 19/12/2007 at 09:12
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LWB Defender prob on the short list but the Land Cruiser Amazon must take the title because OVERALL the Defender fails. You cannot tell me that motorway driving in a Defender is much fun and the thing that annoys me about them is that there is no elbow room between steering wheel and window.
I think that the new LandCruiser Amazon coming out next year might be even better. I know that the 4.5 V8 Diesel replacing the 4.2TD V6 uses less fuel and is significantly better performance wise.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/12/2007 at 12:51
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Re the Shogun SB ...... This was the plunge you took
Is it still with the mechanic?
Anything you want to tell us about whether it was a Super Buy or not ??
I think we ought to know....
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helicopter - I'm loving it I (as the advert for the golden arches says!!)
See update at www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?f=2&t=58...7 for more information, suffice to say that the first 100miles in it have been good. Ask me in just over a week when the first 1000miles are up in it!
Looking to get an alarm/immobiliser fitted next.
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The suitable vehicles have already been highlighted -- Land Cruiser, Shogun and Defender, to which I would add the G-wagen. However, we don't know how much fording the OP is planning so it is worth bearing a couple of points in mind. Electrics are a potential liability but I would be more worried in many 4x4s by the axle breathers and recommend talking to a specialist about breather extensions if going through water at depth regularly. In terms of reliability I would favour the Toyota for durability of parts, given experience with both small and large Land Cruisers, together with Hiluxes, in hot and dusty conditions with rainy season floods for only a month or so each year. The Nissan Patrol also does well, and the Terrano to some extent. The Shogun is mostly a secondhand import in my bit of Africa so I can't comment but it has always looked capable. The L200 does, however, fall apart long before a Hilux. Note that UN spec vehicles are usually to a more robust engine spec than anything bought in Europe, i.e. naturally-aspirated and until recently the Land Cruiser Amazon had a 'proper' front axle. Toyota will not warrant its 3.0 turbo under West African conditions and fuels.
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Pinzgauer or Unimog. Accept no substitute, other than a DUKW / Schimmwagen for that retro feel.
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if you must buy a 4x4 and you actually use it off road be sure to take some lessons first:
tinyurl.com/2ntu9g
very short youtube clip - spectacular but no-one hurt
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Based on what I've driven:
LandCruiser 3 litre diesel - comfy, quick (steady 70 in 5th with 3/4 ton load and 6th gear still to go), solid build.
Patrol - 3 litre diesel - comfy, slow, tempremental 2wd to 4wd shift.
Disco 2 2.5 diesel - very airy thanks to larger windows, very slow.
Defender 2.5 diesel - noisy, slow. Leg-ache after an hour in traffic.
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In the early '90s I drove 30,000 kms all over Tanzania in my bog standard, plastic seats 1990 2.5 diesel Defender 110. Several times when fording rivers and flooded roads the water was so deep it flowed over the top of my bonnet onto the windscreen. Way, way over the recommended fording depth. The car never once broke down but I do recall having 7 punctures in 10 days. I did get stuck in it a few times off-roading (cheap worn tyres and no axle diff locks). Extensive off-road training at Land Rover factory in Solihull.
In West Africa in the late '90s I had a Mercedes G-wagen top of the range. As a whole it was less reliable (but it never broke down or failed to start) but had all toys (including air con! which did break down - cracked condensor). No fording but plenty of unsupported back-country camping adventures. Never got stuck (BF Goodrich mud terrains and push button lockable front and rear diffs). I trained all the American embassy drivers on their new, winch equipped Land Cruisers (which got stuck in the mud whereas my G-wagen made it through - really only due to better tyres).
Permanent four-wheel drive, coil springs and the best tyres is my advice.
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i may be wrong to say this but technically speaking the toyota land cruiser not the amazon but the normal version technically is the best 4x4 if you look at fuel economy,reliability,insurance,wading depth,ground clearance you end up looking at a toyota land cruiser, i may be wrong but it does beat the disco 3 by far.
any opinions on the land cruiser ,shogun or disco 3.
please comment i want to hear everyones opinion
all the models are new so when i say land cruiser i mean the current model not any other. same goes for shogun (new shogun released march). etc
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Is there any possibility of re-writing this using capital letters with punctuated and constructed sentences?
659.
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Different from this question - snipurl.com/1vjgf - in what way?.....
School out?
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Is there any possibility of re-writing this using capital letters with punctuated and constructed sentences?
Everyone knows that's old hat. You're showing your age, 659FBE. ;-)
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Remember the very early Japanese motorbikes, how we laughed. Then they got better and better and wiped our own brands virtually out. Our car companies have been decimated by the competitiion and now one of the last icons, the Land Rover is getting a bad reputation for reliability while the Japanese 4x4s go from strength to strength. Why don't our lot learn the lesson that reliability sells cars before Land Rover too goes under. At the local multi dealership there is still a forlorn Rover badge on the wall but the sales area which once teamed with Rover cars is awash with citroens and Hondas.
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Having spent the last half century denying that engineering design has any relevance to the fitness for purpose of the final product and assuming that a name change and a bit of marketing hype will fool everybody was the first mistake. The Marina did not become a good car by sticking "Ital" on its rump.
We have nailed the coffin by ensuring that our education system can now no longer produce engineers at all. Maths and Physics have no relevance to today's youth.
Result: We are now no longer capable of designing or producing automotive products. The politicians think that a screwdriver operation in Sunderland (no disrespect to the hard-working people involved) constitutes vehicle production.
659.
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659 - my younger daughter at High school would take exception to your comments - currently doing prelims (mocks to you) and scored 100% for both Physics and Maths at credit level; she's only been awarded 99% 'cos the school reckons no-one is perfect.
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We have nailed the coffin by ensuring that our education system can now no longer produce engineers at all. Maths and Physics have no relevance to today's youth. Result: We are now no longer capable of designing or producing automotive products.
Yes, youngsters know that the real route to riches is by becoming a 'celebrity' or through property development....
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Result: We are now no longer capable of designing or producing automotive products.
Not sure I agree with that, however we are short of astute accountants who can see how a business case can be made, and recognise a profit & loss sheet that goes on for more than 6 months.
Drifting badly off topic here, like a 4x4 on greasy tarmac....
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Not sure I agree with that however we are short of astute accountants who can see how a business case can be made and recognise a profit & loss sheet that goes on for more than 6 months.
One thing we are NOT short of in the UK is accountants, astute or otherwise. We have about 10-fold the number of accountants that Germany does and Lord knows how many more than Japan. When BMW took over Rover they were staggered at how many accountants, bookkeepers and sundry financial administrators the company employed and how relatively few design engineers. According to the Instute of Physics if you stand in a crowd you are about 4000 times more likely to be standing next to an accountant than a physicist!
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One thing we are NOT short of in the UK is accountants astute or otherwise.
But if UK Engineering is good (which I believe it is - there are a fair few talented guys around), why don't we have a UK version of VW, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Porsche..... Are we incapable of designing the product? But the UK seems to be the home of F1 teams.
That's why I said we're short of astute accountants, there's a phrase about some accountants knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing, that's why we don't have the design & manufacturing businesses I'd say.
But I'm an Engineer, what do I know ;-)
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Theres been loads of talk about 4x4s in the past year or so,i went and checked out a few 4x4s my self. i came up with a shortlist of the best large 4x4s. Toyota land cruiser (not amazon), land rover discovery and the Mitsubishi shogun. when i looked in more detail i found that the Toyota land cruiser actually beats its rivals for fuel economy,reliability etc. so correct me if i am wrong this therefore proves it is the best 4x4.
please comment on any 4x4s listed below
land rover discovery 3
Mitsubishi shogun (new edition)
Toyota land cruiser (not amazon)
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strewth - do you really need to start 3 threads on the same thing. {Now merged}
you obviously want the Land Cruiser so go and get it.
Land Rover breaks down and Mitsubishi's customer service does not exist.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 19/12/2007 at 18:33
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Land Cruiser ...
You see little else in the deserts where I work in the Middle East.
Millions of Arabs cannot be wrong
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The OP appears to be interested only in the Prado - I can think of eight different Land Cruiser models currently available new. The Prado is a very good choice for Europe but not the best Land Cruiser. If he/she gets one there will be a fourth thread shortly wondering why it doesn't return 31 mpg. We have three Prados and four or five recent Amazons and the transport manager will still be laughing in the New Year if I suggest he should be getting that sort of mpg. The 4.2 Amazons are actually more consistent and can be more economic than the 3.0 litre Prado -- all are manual. Think 22 mpg and on one fast all-road journey when I was paying for fuel it dropped to 18 mpg in the turbo 3.0 Prado.
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The company i work for here in Sudan opperated 6 Amazons 4 Prado's & 8 Hi Lux 4x4 PU's
The Amazon are straight 6 non turbo diesels they take some beating the prado's are tending to become a bit ragged now after 4 years hard use but the amazons just keep going on and on.Hi luxes too, as someone has mentioned they are far more robust than the Mitsubishi L200
I have regularly taken a trip in a Amazon of 600Kms All off road without missing a beat.
They are however IMO far to big for UK roads
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Try a real 4x4 - a Unimog!
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so what are you trying to say that the land cruiser amazon is more economical than the Prado, if it is you cant be right as the official mpg figures show the amazon lacking compared to the Prado in mpg.
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what is the best looking 4x4
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Dont think any 4x4 is going to win any beauty contests, however some of the Far Eastern efforts have been quite awful looking.
If you forget looks for a minute, if you want image its going to have to be Land/Range rover or BMW or Merc. Nothing wrong with these but don't expect them to be still pounding away at 10 years old, without huge bills.
Servicing costs on these need investigating first, so do Mitsubishi.
Ignore completely at your peril the recommendation of some of these makers that their auto boxes never need to have fluid change.
If image is less important, then the 2 manufacturer's are Toyota and Nissan, and if money is no object Merc gelanderwagen (bet that speelings wrong).
Nissan Patrol is one of the toughest and most capable vehicles you can buy, and very good value.
Toyo's Landcruiser is top rate as well, but will be more expensive as has more kudos on the school run.
More reasonable size than amazon and patrol, and just as capable.
Toyo 3 litre engine very torquey and reliable (max torque from 1400 rpm), and very cheap easy cam belt change (get a cambelt change quote on any vehicle you are considering)
Amazon is probably the best 4x4 made, but in Europe we get the 100 model with air suspension, and it can be expensive to put right when the sphere's start to go (when they get bad they bounce around like worn out xantia's) think thousands for 4 sphere's. The susp sensors dont like salt either 3 x £250.
The best Amazons are the 105 model which goes to the more demanding and less image conscious parts of the world, this is basically the 100 model we get here but with the old coils spring suspension and live fron axle from the old 80 series.
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