Thank you for the update.
This highlights how far the human impact of collisions extends.
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Fullchat
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graham woods:
as requested, here are links your two earlier threads on this subject-
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=47230&...f
Causing death by dangerous driving - graham woods Tue 5 Dec 06 14:23
{Comment added to this thread informing of where to find the update - DD}
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=52659&...f
Death by dangerous driving update. - graham woods Mon 4 Jun 07 18:52
{Merged - obviously - DD}
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Were not both participants in the race being charged?
This sentence was presumably for the man who hit the 60 year old, what about the other?
Or have I missed something?
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tinyurl.com/3bm6u2 {Link to an article on www.thisislancashire.co.uk shortened to restore page width to correct proportions - DD}
This link (which I hope will work) looks to show the details what Cardew was referring to. This is another terribly sad case involving young drivers, who now account for approx 25% of all convictions for Death by Dangerous Driving. This case, as always, has destroyed the family of an innocent victim. The law on this offence has very sharp teeth now with life changing consequences for the driver (some might still say not sharp enough). How on earth do we teach young drivers what's at stake when they get behind the wheel and in some way protect them from the stupidity of their own actions and ideas of invincibility?
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This is a difficult one, the jail sentences could ruin lives that otherwise may be rehabilitated.
I reckon the min age should rise from 17 to 18* however this indicates to me that driving is more about attitude, aptitude and perception than age, the driving test should approach candidates mindset as much as their ability to physically drive, i.e use psychometrics etc so some young people may get on the road at 18 though others may take much longer.
(*which would have the added benefit of helping congestion)
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Cheddar, I couldn't agree more with your comments, especially the first paragraph. I know that my views are in the minority but I fear for the way we lock up young people. No other European Countries treat their kids like we do.
Many of these young drivers are thoroughly decent people who have made a terrible mistake through not having their brain switched on. A conviction over 2.5 years, I believe, already means their record will never be erased affecting lifelong employment, credit worthiness, entry to several professions etc, as well as having to wake up each day with the knowledge that you have taken someones life.
There must be a more selective and socially acceptable way to punish them than throwing them into a prison full of miscreants only to learn new crimes and match the already bad re-offending statistics.
There have been some fine examples of victim's families asking judges for compassion in not jailing the young driver but to use an alternative punishment. Unfortunately society demands a different kind of approach to rehabilitation. Sorry to go on but I feel very strongly about this whole subject.
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Sorry to go on but I feel very strongly about this whole subject.
Don't worry, and don't apologise. You are not the only one.
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How on earth do we teach young drivers what's at stake when they get behind the wheel and in some way protect them from the stupidity of their own actions and ideas of invincibility?
A good question. Around us, a couple of youngsters just out of school have had accidents recently. Both had a reputation for moving pretty fast on the road. These were not idiots or yobs - they were sensible youngsters from good homes.
My guess is that there are two factors:
1) it is a psychological thing - i.e. there is a certain confidence associated with youth, which we tend to lose as we grow older, and
2) It is just being unfamiliar with cars and driving. Looking back at my own experience, I reckon that I had very little feel for cars and how they handled when I passed my test. A year or two later, I had a considerably better feel. No substitute for experience and practice.
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One thing that might help is the use of "R Plates" as in Northern Ireland. The NI Highway code states:
"Restricted drivers
After passing the driving test for a motor car or motorcycle, you must display amber R plates for a period of one year from the date of passing the test. The plates MUST conform to legal specifications and MUST be clearly visible to others from in front of the vehicle and from behind. Plates should be removed or covered when not being driven by a restricted driver. The maximum permitted speed for any vehicle displaying R plates is 45mph, irrespective of whether or not the vehicle is being driven by a restricted driver."
One could even make it a requirement that all drivers must display R plates until their 20th birthday.
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I agree that there should be a probation period. I am not sure of the ins and outs of the various ones around the world, but think that the Oz one is good. There I think that they restrict passengers especially at night time. Also when you get caught for speeding you get an automatic ban (I think).
I would also go a little further and link engine capacity (or rather output) to the number of years that a licence has been held for.
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I agree that we need some kind of probationary period or graduated system of earning a full and unrestricted licence. The point about passengers is also important. There are examples of this offence involving young drivers which have resulted in them killing a car full of their friends or even family. I think some of the road safety organisations advocate a graduated approach to licensing.
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Hi there Cardew, yes you a correct. The other driver got 4 years 2 months, thanks. Graham.
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Question: when does that 5 year ban kick in? Immediately, or after he is released?
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Ian, I believe it starts on conviction. Usually a young driver 18-21 will be released from a young offenders institution after seving half the sentence. After the end of the driving ban period a provisional licence must be applied for and a new theory test and an extended practical test must be taken before a full licence is issued.
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You're right Michael, not sure about the detail of the case, if he hasn't passed a test the ban kicks in when he does so.
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Sorry Ian, I did not find that out, Cheers, Graham.
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"jail sentences could ruin lives that otherwise may be rehabilitated"
Agreed. For death or injury caused without intent I'd be much happier making the miscreants pay restitution to the partner / family of the victim.
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Thanks one and all for your thoughts and comments on this tragic case. Cheers, Graham.
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4 years 4 months means he'll be out in 2 years 2 months, less any time spent on remand. (If he has a clean record it's likely that he's been out on bail since the incident).
That sentence is quite a bit more than I'd have expected personally and whilst the devil is in the detail, I think an appeal would seriously be considered, albeit some custody is (and always was) inevitable in this case.
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A relative of mine was convicted of Death by Dangerous Driving several years ago. At the time, I thought that prison was something of a waste - he just sat in an open prison for two years then came out a broken man.
I thought, and still think, despite my innate desire to bay for blood, that these people and the nation would be better served by their being allowed to live as normal a life as possible commensurate with working five days a week as porters in a spinal injuries unit or suchlike, curfewed and with weekends inside prison.
I'm sure there are a thousand objections, but in the event (God forbid) that I ever became one of the surviving victims (relatives) in such a case, I hope I could find it in myself ask for such sentence. The person would come away a damned sight wiser than after spending two years looking at a blank wall.
What an utter waste of two (and more) lives for a few seconds of stupidity. Tragic in all its aspects.
Thanks again for letting us know, Graham.
V
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I agree with your ideas Vin about a useful approach to punishment for this offence.
In the case of a young driver going to Young Offenders Institution, just read today's news on the BBC News website about the inspection of the Portland YOI in Dorset. Consider that the other inmates will be there for violence, drug related, robbery or worse offences.
We then expect a decent young person who has made a tragic mistake in their driving (with tragic consequences) to be punished and rehabilitated in that environment; and that's supposed to be character building? Some hope of that being successful.
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i disagree look at that woman in america banned but carried on driving then took a hiffi cos she was going to be locked up
ive met all types of people in my life
those that think jail is a thing thats going to happen and they dont care anyway
and those that even the thought of jail and the stigma means they keep the normal path
i think its so wrong our jails are overflowing and wrong ones are let out (anyone who pays taxes and saw the news tonight will know what i am talking about)
you cause carnage you go to jail.......i accept that as a member of a just society,no iffs no butts
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Yes, bb, jail's a deterrent for many crimes. However, I'd suspect most people about to drive dangerously aren't considering any consequences at all, as if they were, they'd realise that most times they are risking their own lives. Death by dangerous driving is not a thought out and planned crime.
In the case I've mentioned, a 60 odd year old bloke overtook on a very short straight on a country road he'd driven down many thousands of times. He misjudged it and hit someone head-on in what I believe was a blind bend at the end of the straight. He was in a big car, they were in a small one, so they died. If he'd been thinking in any way, he'd not have gone for it. Not for fear of jail, but for fear that he would die if he got it wrong.
So, once it had happened, what would have been better for him, the country as a whole and perhaps even the victim's family (though I don't claim to speak for them)?
a. Sitting looking at the wall in a prison for a couple of years, fearful of spending any time in the communal areas? (And incidentally filling up the space that could be filled by one of the "wrong ones" you mention)
b. Working in a spinal injuries unit (or whatever), freedom severely curtailed, seeing the consequences of actions like his and giving something back to society for no reward?
I really don't think it's simple, which is why I said there may be many faults with my idea, but it might be worth our having an open mind as to suitable punishments.
V
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Lock them up I say-old enough to play, old enough to pay. No one can sensibly claim they didn't know what they were doing. At what age do you all suggest you become liable to be locked up for committing a serious crime? 18-too young, 20? Too young? Really.
What other crimes should you not get locked up for? Criminal damage when you're drunk? That's a pretty dumb thing to do, a real brain out crime. What about if I punch someone and they are killed (unprovoked)? Didn't mean it, didn't think the worst would happen.
If these guys are basically decent people, then going to prison won't change that-the reason why people say prison is a training ground is because most of the inmates are scum, who will willfully learn new 'skills' whilst inside. Maybe they will come out worse than when they went in-to me that would simply prove they deserved to be in there anyway.
I'm not saying I never did anything dumb on the road (although racing through a built up area is one thing I have never done). But if it all went pear shaped I would accept the consequences.
Dangerous driving was proven, the sentence was jail time; don't see a problem with it or any way around it. It's not like they'll do the full sentence anyway.
Look at it another way-the article mentions how bad one of the guys feels, how he hasn't been out etc. Probably feels bad about what happened. But he also knew he was going to jail-if these guys walked away from this one they'd be down the pub clinking glasses with their mates right now-instead they are in a jail contemplating what they have done.
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I'm not asking to let them walk free. At what point was that suggested? I'm just wondering if two and a half years looking at a prison wall is the best we can manage. Wouldn't he be better with his freedom curtailed contemplating what he did somewhere more productive than inside a prison?
I'm all for prison for people likely to reoffend, if only for the reason that a repeat burglar or assaulter is unable to commit crimes while inside. I just wonder when it comes to crimes that tend to be one-offs.
I also acknowledge there's a problem when you have to deal with a scumbag who is quite clearly going to carry on dangerous driving whatever you do. I just wonder if there should be other options.
In the event you're interested, I'm typically a hang-em and flog-em type of person, but I've wrestled with this question for some time. As you can hopefully tell, I'm not even particularly certain on this - just interested in opinions to help me come to a more informed conclusion.
V
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CP, Your contribution raises very valid points in this debate which of course is supported by society as a whole; hence the ever increasing periods of imprisonment. I just feel strongly about the way we choose to treat our young offending drivers in this country.
Firstly, I am not so sure about your comment, old enough to play. I think it is clear from the ever increasing number of convictions that something is wrong. One in four of all convictions in this country for Death by Dangerous Driving are against drivers under the age of 21. Young people need protecting from themselves by a better system of graduated licensing, because they do not know what they are doing all the time.
846 young people were killed on the roads last year. If that happened in a single accident action would soon be taken. We are way behind many countries in this action. By better education and restrictions according to age we may save them from getting into dangerous situations more successfully.
How you punish those that still have to be punished is another debate. There is genuine evidence that many of these guys are decent young people. At 18 they may still be at school or college and they have never been in trouble; they just made a tragic driving error. How, in this society, we can subject them to a regime that takes them in handcuffs from a crown court to prison, strips them naked to see if they are smuggling anything into prison, locks them in an almost furniture-less room on their first day and then expects them to co-exist with a population of which 95% are violent or drug offenders or robbers or sex offenders is beyond me. If the decent kids don?t change I would be surprised. We can?t even look after those that we lock up properly. Just read some of the Prison Inspectors reports, especially regarding bullying. They are frightening.
Maybe we need a contribution from someone who has experienced this to throw some more light on the discussion.
I don't say they should get away with it, I just think that other forms of punishment, other than incarceration must have a place in all of this. Other European countries and beyond have alternatives that are worthy of consideration.
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This guy has not been out since!!! Total pink fluffy dice, he was seen driving within 48 hours of this death. And has been out as normal for the last 18 months.... Do not believe every-thing that his girlfriend has told the local paper.... That comment by her is utter and total rubbish, Cheers, Graham.
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This guy has not been out since!!! Total pink fluffy dice, he was seen driving within 48 hours of this death. And has been out as normal for the last 18 months.... Do not believe every-thing that his girlfriend has told the local paper.... That comment by her is utter and total rubbish Cheers Graham.
I rest my case.
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component part,
unless I misunderstand, you seem to be saying that the fact that he went out in the 18 months means that he should be locked up. Or am I missing something?
V
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Ok you got me..whilst I wasn't thinking exactly that the comment I made is not a particularly logical leap to make.
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just reread all this again. 1stly im still a young driver and cannot agree that we should go and introduce massive changes and restrictions on new drivers, if most of you think back to when you 1st passed your test without the rose tinted glasses how would you have felt to be told your not allowed out with your mates in the car, or over a certain limit even though it is actually less than the roads limit? also have the amount of young driver related incidents actually gone up massively from say 30 years ago? or are records now better taken and more frequent so the data we have now compared to the data we don't from the past show they have? also how many of you were given an earful by a local traffic cop instead of action been taken, that just doesn't happen now more often than not if you can be prosecuted you are that didn't happen as often years ago, in fact do we actually have traffic police on the road nowadays or have they all been replaced with cameras?
im not saying what happened should go unpunished but why is it fair to penalise the new drivers who do behave? and i honestly think if those of you who passed your test say 20 years ago were actually faced with the penalties your suggesting should be introduced when you passed your test you wouldn't be so keen for them, but it's ok you've passed your test so sod the rest ho hum.
chris
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Thomp1983, I would probably have felt the same way as you do. The main points I have tried to raise, courtesy of this forum, are twofold. a) the increasing number of young drivers killing themselves, their mates and others and b) the increasing number of young drivers being prosecuted for Death by Dangerous Driving and their subsequent punishment.
There is no comparison to the problem of learning to drive when I did and now. The roads now are significantly more congested and complex, cars are eminently more powerful and more young people learn to drive much earlier ( as soon as they legally can).
By spending time on the Internet you can see for yourself the statistics available on many, many websites, as well as being able to read about the results of research. All of the Road Safety organisations show this information.
Greater skills are required to drive safely in today?s environment and it is now being proven that younger drivers are having greater difficulty in using their limited skills in an ever demanding driving environment. The sheer increase in the number of accidents and deaths of young drivers alone support these facts. Add to this the problem of increases in Drink Driving among the young.
Consider this quotation from a young driver:-
?As a convicted drink driver, not only do I have to live with the fact that I took a friend's life, but the plans I had for myself have changed. I now have a police record and I cannot have the career I hoped for. Being in prison isn't an experience I want to repeat.?
Death by Dangerous Driving alone will imprison something like 50+ young drivers in the past couple of months. You can be sure that at my age it is really upsetting to read about the deaths caused and the imprisonment of a young driver. Be sure, too, that it is life changing to the individual as well as the effect on the driver?s family and that of the victim?s family.
Generally the solution is considered to be better education and a more gradual application of the skills learned in a more controlled way on the road. Again, look at the Internet to see the significant reductions this has achieved in countries that have implemented it. I believe it will have to be implemented in this country.
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thomp1983,
The first vehicle I owned was a Mini 850 - 34bhp.
Nowadays, you might look at a Corsa 1.0 12v 59bhp.
IMHO, you are much more likely to get into life-threatening trouble in one rather than the other.
V
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The sentences seemed fair to me. We have to take into account punishment, deterance and other issues. The only problem is that it costs about £50K per annum to keep someone in prison, and while there they are not earning and contributing to the economy. So it is expensive for everyone, including the victims family.
>> How on earth do we teach young drivers what's at stake when they getbehind the wheel and in some way protect them from the stupidity of their own actions and ideas of invincibility?
Unfortunately some young people are very stupid and either do not give a damn (I've met some) or have a macho self confidence that prevents them seeing beyond the end of their noses. I suspect that the only way to reach these people would be to meet people who did kill someone due to dangerous driving, and learn from them. I'm not sure lecturing them helps.
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