I have an 04 plate TDCI (100) Focus with 44k on the clock. It has recently started to cut out when started for the first time in the day.
The cutting out manifests itself within a few minutes of starting the car and usually happens when you depress the clutch i.e when stopping at a junction soon after starting the car.
The engine idle revs seem to fluctuate slightly just before it cuts out.
It only ever does it the once after the first start of the day. Subsequent use of the car later in the day does not result in it cutting out.
Does anyone have any ideas what might be causing this?
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If triggered by the clutch pedal - I believe that like the Mondeo TDCi it has a clutch pedal position sensor, could be worth checking this, it can be adjusted, cheap to replace though need setting by a dealer, probably only half hour labour.
Otherwise does the temp gauge read normally, it could be the coolant temp sensor (CTS) giving duff info to the ECU when cold.
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If Clutch pedal - would it be ok if you drop the gear into neutral and coast the last few yards into a junction with clutch pedal up? Does it happen on the flat or uphill more -Ford told me of a sensor on the flywheel which can get an erratic reading when too much play in the DMF (flywheel) - this has happenend on Transit diesels and caused cutting out. Just a possibility hopefully a more knowledgable ford expert could confirm if a DMF fault could do this.
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Cheers for the responses so far.
I hope it's not the DMF again. It was replaced about 14 months ago.
It's not fussy where it stalls, flat, uphill or downhill, doesn't seem to make any difference.
The coolant guage seems to read normally.
I'm off out in it soon for the first start of the day. I will let it idle for a bit before setting off to see if it will stall without having depressed the clutch pedal.
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Steve
I have changed a lot of cam position sensors on these. They cause cutting-out; but not quite like your problem; but with sensors, anything......
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The clutch pedal appears to be a red herring.
I have started the car for the first time today and have just let it idle for a few minutes before setting off.
It ran fine at idle for about 20-30 seconds then changed to a "lumpy" rough idle and cut out.
It repeated this a further 2 times after restarting.
After the third cutting out I restarted and applied some revs and then let it settle back to idle. It again went lumpy and cut out.
I then restarted it and swiftly set out on a trip of 5-6 miles without further problems.
It now idles fine on starting and settles back down to idle after blipping the throttle without going lumpy or cutting out.
I'm sure that tomorrow morning will present the same symptoms. Any further ideas on what may be the cause of the problem?
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Take it to a Ford dealer and leave it with them overnight. Request they carry out tests the next morning according to your instructions, with their diagnostics equipment monitoring the situation. As the problem is easily repeatable they should be able to see where the problem is fairly quickly. Then let us know what they find.
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Do these common-rails have a low pressure fuel pump at the tank?
Maybe it's a bit faulty, in that it takes a few bumps in the road to jolt it into action properly. Or would a faulty feed pump just cause the car to stop and not restart?
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There is not much point in speculating. The complexity of these systems is such that it needs to go to someone with the right experience and diagnostic equipment. Either a Ford dealer who (hopefully!) has a technician who knows what he's doing, or an experienced independent with CR Diesel expertise.
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The car is booked in for diagnostic investigation at my local Ford dealer. Will keep you posted on the outcome.
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The car went on the diagnostic machine from cold and cut out as before.
It has been diagnosed as a faulty metering unit on the back of the pump.
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The saga continues.
I had the metering unit replaced as "diagnosed" by the Ford dealer. Total cost for diagnostic checks and metering unit £233.80.
The invoice stated "ok on test". However, when I collected the car I sat in the car park with the engine at idle and it cut out exactly as before. Obviously all was not "ok".
The car was booked back in for more diagnostic checks.
The 2nd diagnostic discovered the fuel filter was full of water. This was duly replaced at a cost of £77.97. Invoice again stated "ok on test". I was assured that it had been fully resolved this time.
From my experience of picking the car up last time I again sat in the car park with it at idle.
Imagine my surprise when the engine ran rough and cut out again, all exactly as before.
It is now booked back in again. 3rd time lucky?
Surely this shouldn't be happening. I am over £300 out of pocket and my car is not fixed.
I appreciate there may be multiple faults, but would you not expect it to be resolved by now?
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"Water in fuel/fuel filter" is fast becoming a Ford standard getout for the inadequacies of their fuel systems and the diagnostic support thereof.
I see lots of diesels running on fuel that we all buy from a variety of high street or supermarket outlets. I can't remember when I last saw any water in the fuel which they supply, even after a neglected fuel filter drain. The oil companies are obviously doing a good job in this respect.
How strange that only Ford vehicles seem to find "the water".
659.
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The service desk are pointing the finger at my local fuel station, which seems odd as I only use a major brand. My regular filling station is on a busy roundabout of two major A roads, so it's not like it doesn't have a good throughput of fuel through its storage tanks.
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This sounds like a typical fob-off to me. Trouble is, it is hard for the driver to prove a case against the garage. But, that's not the way round this should be. They are the ones with the problem and they are far to quick to blame the problem (whether or not they can diagnose it) on drivers. How are we supposed to know if our local major brand garage has water in the diesel pumps...!!!?
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I ran one diesel for 130,000 miles, filling up all over the UK and on the continent.
Doing my own filter work, in all that time only a few drops of water in total.
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What I don't understand is that if the water in the fuel filter was causing the problem to start with then:
1. Why didn't they spot it the first time round, which would of saved me £200 ish?
2. If they have replaced the fuel filter, why is it still cutting out?
3. Why does it only do it when cold i.e when it's been stood overnight?
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Sounds like nonsense to me, but all the same ask the dealership to put it in writing and then fill up elsewhere for a week or two and see if the problem dispappears - I suspect it won't.
My friend who repairs Diesels gets a lot of Ford TDCi's coming through (yes, I know there's a lot about!) - part of the problem is that the local Ford dealership seems to have a high turnover of techs and they're lacking anyone with expertise on the CR Diesels. Maybe try another Ford garage who might have a clued-up tech?
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Steve, Why not drain the fuel filter yourself, because in the VERY unlikely chance water has been in the tank, it may still be settling in the filter.
I do think the water in the filter is a complete red herring, but until you completely disprove it........
If you check the new filter now and it has even a small amount of water in, its an indication that there was a lot more in the filter just replaced.
Regards
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Re water in filter, you can always ask to keep the old one and check it yourself.
If there is that much water in the filter then they should also drain the tank.
Re cutting out at idle, doesnt sound water in filter related though, also not injector / pump related, perhaps a sensor, if when cold only perhaps the CTS.
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I would want my money back for the metering unit if it proves to be something else.
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Cutting out at idle could easily be pump related. If, when turning slowly, wear in the pump prevents the pump from producing sufficient pressure, the pressure sensor on the common rail will signal this, and the system will shut down.
Number_Cruncher
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I shall be going after them for my money when they finally work out what it is.
Should the diagnostic machine in the hands of a "competent" tech' be able to say if it is the pump or a sensor or something else. I don't want to really continue with this hit and miss approach they seem to be taking?
At this rate I'll have half a new car before they find it!
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Steve
It's distinctly possible that their only "competent diag tech" left months/years ago and the bosses found that there's no-one left to poach. Why would anyone with the IQ now needed to understand these systems [say Ravens/Wechsler 120+ level] want to stay in the motor trade?
That only leaves the monkeys trying to remember what he used to do, or desperately trying "phone fixes" with no knowledge or diagnostic system to assess their relevance or efficacy.
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The garage have now had my car for over a week.
Further diagnosis of the problem has been:
The new metering unit is faulty.
You have a broken wire.
One of the injectors is faulty.
I have just rung them to be told that they have "cured the cutting out problem" by overhauling the suspect injector, although it is now "suffering from increased diesel knock" at tickover.
Should I be concerned about "diesel knock" or should I just get a new injector?
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Steve
So the monkeys are still playing in the dark then - still haven't got a clue; have they?
The "metering" is done by the injectors and the ECU - so what exactly are they changing?
If there's a broken wire - why didn't they just fix it!
If an injector's faulty; replace/refurb it - and [as they clearly don't know] it then needs recoding to the ECU, or it will knock at idle....
GET IT AWAY FROM THESE MORONS. Follow Aprilia's excellent advice above and take it to a diesel specialists.
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Apparently the faulty injector had been recoded to the ECU but is still causing the knocking.
Having spoken to the Workshop Manager it sounds like the garage have been lead by Ford Technical Support.
I guess this why we have been down this long and expensive road to finally get to the bottom of the problem.
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Steve
Just as I said earlier; there's clearly no-one there who understands [or could even be trained to understand] these systems. Almost normal for many dealers now; the crunch has finally come.
They've been relying on the "phone fixes" that I mentioned above; "try this: try that" - all at your expense!
If it's still knocking, did they even get the injector coding order right? [It's not the 1-2-3-4 that you'd think.]
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The "suspect" injector was replaced with a new one. Engine now runs as smooth as you like with no cutting out or roughness.
I'm still annoyed at how long this took to get to the bottom of. The garage is sticking by their story that the metering unit was faulty and as a result caused damage to the one injector. Not forgetting the water in the fuel filter and broken wiring.
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I'm sure that's exactly what happened....
It's very common for the [non-existent?] metering unit to sneak out of it's hole, cut the wires, trash an injector and pour water into the tank......
So; cracked injector causing excessive leak-back and a low rail pressure code.
Don't diagnose fault; just take wild guess and fit new pressure control solenoid.
Same code comes back - "must have been a faulty solenoid..." Fit another.
Same fault persists - "must be the wiring...." [Working down the list of possible causes for that code.]
Same fault persists - finally consider other options.. Phone Technical....
Faff around recoding faulty injector - still the same.
Finally replace the faulty part... Success!!
Invent ludicrous excuse and charge customer for all the time and unnecessary parts....
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I can't remember when I last saw any water in the fuel which they supply even after a neglected fuel filter drain.
I was only thinking the same at the weekend. The Mondeo had done 12k since I last touched the filter. Opened the drain screw and pure diesel poured straight out right from the off. Was the same on our old 306TD and Polo 1.9D
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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