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Watchdog over did this one, the problem is with the secondary catch, as long as the bonnet is closed properly it will stay closed however if it is not closed properly the secondary catch can fail to engage if not lubricated, Renault did not deny responsibility, rather they advised dealers / owners to check the secondary catch and lubricte it as required.
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I've often wondered why bonnets don't open forward. I am sure Mk 2 Fiestas did, and Triumph Heralds. Fail safe and you seem to get a lot more room to work too, although that doesn't seem to be a priority with manufacturers anymore.
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Bonnets don't open forwards these days because of crash regulations - the hinge area has to be very stiff and hence damaging to pedestians legs etc on impact.
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The problem, as usual, has been exaggerated out of all proportion by a headline hungry media. If the catch is kept lubricated and the bonnet shut properly then there is no problem.
If VOSA considered there to be a problem then they would come down hard on Renault.
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Does the catch have to be kept lubricated and bonnet shut properley together? What I'm getting at is if the catch was not lubricated and the bonnet shut properly would this still happen?
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What I'm getting at is if the catch was not lubricated and the bonnet shut properly would this still happen?
No. As per my post above it is only the secondary catch that is at all problematic.
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Cheddar and Xileno.
I sure the two of use have a few years driving between yourselves. I myself have 20 years of driving and in that time with 14 cars/vans (ranging in ages from new to 16yesrs old) have never had to check or lubricate any catch the keeps the bonnet closed. Like most people I just drop the bonnet and get on with life. The bonnet catches should be fool proof as it is a critical part of the car as it is not checked when cars go in for there service. I feel that this is a design fault on the car and if the car company feels that it is not a design fault then why have they redesigned the bonnet catch on the new model.
Once again it will take someone to be killed before somebody does anything.
Good on Watchdog.
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Manufacturers change things during a production run for all sorts of reasons. The fact is that VOSA have not forced a recall which can only mean that the 'problem' is not deemed sufficient to justify one.
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I am sure if this was America the car would have been recalled.
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I bet every single one of the hundreds of people that this has happened to were told by their Renault dealer "we've never heard of that happening before".
Clio's are very popular on the continent, and presumeably there's nothing different about the LHD cars bonnet catch, so this problem must be reaching epidemic proportions now.
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The fact is that VOSA have not forced a recall which can only mean that the 'problem' is not deemed sufficient to justify one.
Let me think a Clio doing 70mph on the motorway bonnets flies up smashes windscreen driver panics, which most of us will do, causes a multiple pile up x amount of people dead and you think that VOSA deem the problem as not to sufficient to justify a recall. Says it all about VOSA. These catches are going to cause somebody their life to either the user and others round about them. The cars should be recalled.
I hope and pray the above never comes true.
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When did they change the bonnet catches on the Clio ? The one we have are at the front so there is no way the bonnet could fly open
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The bonnet catches should be fool proof as it is a critical part of the car as it is not checked when cars go in for there service.
My car gets its bonnet catch greased every time it is serviced, along with the bonnet, door and boot hinges. That is at an independant specialist, not main dealer. Perhaps some dealers should be more thorough when they are servicing cars.
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It would not be in Renault's interests to try and 'brush the problem under the carpet'. They would be sued for squillions and their reputation damaged for many years, similar to the Ford Pinto episode.
I have no knowledge of VOSA but surely if there was a problem they would force a recall.
I will leave it at that.
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To reiterate, Watchdog over did it, the problem is with the secondary catch, as long as the bonnet is closed properly it will stay closed however if it is not closed properly the secondary catch can fail to engage if not lubricated, Renault did not deny responsibility, rather they advised dealers / owners to check the secondary catch and lubricte it as required.
I should also say that it should be bleadin obvious 1/ if the bonnet is not closed properly and 2/ in the event that it is not closed properly, that the catch has not engaged.
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If hundreds of them have opened then it's a poor design - the method of closing it shouldn't be so critical.
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If hundreds of them have opened then it's a poor design the method of closing it shouldn't be so critical.
>>
I agree.
Over the years I have seen many cars being driven with the bonnet just on the safety catch.
Up to now I would guess there have not been many examples of bonnets hitting the windscreen.
With so many reported problems in such a short time, sadly, I think Renault may be on borrowed time until someone gets hurt. I hope I am wrong.
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To reiterate, Watchdog over did it, the problem is with the secondary catch, as long as the bonnet is closed properly it will stay closed however if it is not closed properly the secondary catch can fail to engage if not lubricated, Renault did not deny responsibility, rather they advised dealers / owners to check the secondary catch and lubricte it as required. I should also say that it should be bleadin obvious 1/ if the bonnet is not closed properly and 2/ in the event that it is not closed properly, that the catch has not engaged.
Sorry, but since this is a problem that seems to affect one particular model, it has not been 'over done', especially since the results of this problem are very serious. If nothing else, Watchdog has highlighted the problem to many owners and saved many of them from accidents.
The idea of a second catch is as a fail-safe for the main one and as such, something as important as this should not fail on account of a lack of grease. Ask yourself how you would feel if your airbag went off and all you were told was ' should have cleaned the connectors more often' for example.
A safety item should be near on fullproof and a bonnet catch is hardly a cutting edge piece of technology.
As for a bonnet being open being obvious - some bonnets sit very low even when the main catch has been released ( as a valeter who cleans under many bonnets I can vouch for this on cars that have heavy bonnets its quite common for it to not be immediatly obvious visually.).
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>> Sorry, >>
Apology accepted ;-)
>>If nothing else,Watchdog has highlighted the problem to many owners and saved many of them from accidents.
>>
That is a fair point.
However this is not a matter of a properly closed bonnet popping open, we all have to take responsibility for our actions, just as we are responsible for making sure the door is shut, the seatbelt is on, the lights are on a night and the bulbs are not blown, not driving on the wrong side of the road etc etc, if we are to be responsible for a vehicle on the road we should surely be able to ensure that a bonnet is closed.
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There was quite a range of people on the programme, including a racing driver. I can't imagine someone like that would actually fail to be able to close a bonnet properly. I thought watchdog said the secondary fail safe catch can be moved out of the way or seize. People are closing their bonnets but seized secondary catches won't work and moving ones can end up being pushed out of the way so they won't work. None of those are the can't close bonnet properly or lack of service issues.
teabelly
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It's amazing that these mass failings don't get more publicity - this weeks WatchDog featurered the Potterton Suprima boiler which is just a joke in the industry due to its intermittant lockout problem caused by faulty control PCB's. A £300 repair if you have to get someone in to do it. Yet Potterton told everyone who asked that there was no problem!
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The strange thing is, clios are littering our roadsides with smashed windscreens, and ripped off bonnets, major accidents have been caused by lack of vision, and thousands of people have died due to this issue, and no one knew till watchdog chirped up
Thank god we can rely on such proven, accurate and balanced reporting like watchdog. we would never have known otherwise, another government cover up if you ask me,
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Thank god we can rely on such proven, accurate and balanced reporting like watchdog. we would never have known otherwise, another government cover up if you ask me, ------------------------------
Oh no, a black op surely, with SAS snipers along the A4 to Bristol aiming at Clio bonnet catches.
As my original post, it was one of those things i'd heard about and actually saw. I was just glad that the driver got off lightly, as it's a 50-60mph stretch. I don't know the extent of the problem, but that car was the first ever i'd seen with a bonnet lifted in such a way.
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Renault are being incredibly stupid really over something that cost wise, in the big scheme of things, is not that great.........yet if it goes wrong could end up easily killing someone.
and up until now, particularly after the Watchdog programme, they are getting bad publicity for it, which makes them look like they don't care for their customers
for the sake of a measly bit of grease or WD40 on a catch...why on earth not send a bulletin out to the dealers for contact of all owners? A nice letter from Renault on headed notepaper? Why the head in the sand?
If my current car meant i had a letter for the manufacturer stating " we've had reports of a potential fault in the...... whilst we're not convinced there is a manufacturing fault, as a precaution we recommend that you have the part checked and your local dealer will facilitate this free of charge..."
then i'd think fair enough, they're making an effort. If i knew what i was doing i'd check myself, if not i'd nip down the dealer for one of them to squirt some grease on it.........how long would that take?
Customer goodwill intact, no one dies, doesn't cost a fortune, customer keeps an eye on the part now, because they know about it
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"why on earth not send a bulletin out to the dealers for contact of all owners? A nice letter from Renault on headed notepaper? Why the head in the sand?"
In Autoexpress today, it reports that (in brief)
"Bosses at Renault have responded to complaints about Clio bonnet catch. Our UK dealer network has been instructed to check the condition of the bonnet lock mechanism and safety catch on all Renault vehicles during routine service and MOTs. Owners can contact Renault on 0800 0723372 if they are worried about their car. Renault has carried out a total of 34 inspections of vehicles where owners have reported the issue, in no case has manufacturing defect been discovered."
Seems odd that Renault has only 34 instances where owners have complained, but Watchdog has over 250.
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Phil
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Seems odd that Renault has only 34 instances where owners have complained, but Watchdog has over 250.
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Latest info. ( undated but appears, from the link, to be 06 Mar )
www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and_radio/watchdog/repor...l
"Since April 2006, we've featured the problem with the Clio three times, and have now had over 1,000 complaints"
I was half watching last nights prog. The bonnet catch did look pretty small and it also showed a garage " lets weld on a bigger hook" approach which certainly looked fit for purpose.
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if not i'd nip down the dealer for one of them to squirt some grease on it.........
forgot to say, if you got them in the dealership and they're relatively happy with the service.......you never know you might even be able to steer them via the showroom
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As someone who has been repalceing windscreens in cars for the best part of 15 years I can count on one finger how many screens I've replaced on Clio's where the bonnet has blown up.
I can count on three fingers the number of Escort screens I've replaced where the bonnet has blow up.
Hmmmmmm.
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more Escorts built than Clios?.........average age of Escort older than Clio, so more likely to have faults?
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Very true, but my piont is, that it's not a problem only associated with the Renault Clio. All cars have a second latch, and if it's left un-lubricated then it may seize up.
Vauxhall Cavalier's were quite prone to it aswell.
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Dad had a Ford Scorpio N reg which bonnet came up on him on M18. Suprisingly the bonnet just bounced up and back down when he broke. Slightly twisted bonnect but no windscreen damage quite lucky really.
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>>...my piont is, that it's not a problem only associated with the Renault Clio. All cars have a secondlatch, and if it's left un-lubricated then it may seize up.
There was lots more coverage on Watchdog tonight.
Reported that the Clio is STILL on sale in the UK with the same catch problem.
This is the Campus model , which it is suggested will have the same problem later in its life.
It was suggested that the main bonnet catch is prone to corrode and then the safety catch is not good enought to do its job.
A Renault PR man has resigned in disgust and told the program the Renault inside story.
Renault & VOSA still say it is a maintenance problem. So why is it not in the manual and why not in the service schedule?
A report from South Africa says a passenger was killed after a " bonnet " incident with no other vehicles involved.
A current Renault PR man at last appeared on the program and says they are writing to 400+ K " customers".
Another report on a serious UK accident plus interview and photos.
It was suggested that it would cost £25M for a recall.
IMO It is a sorry tale and no wonder that it is escalating to The House of Commons.
I suggest Renault stop digging!!!
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I suggest Renault stop digging!!!
IMO it is Watchdog that should stop digging, as I said before the problem is with the secondary catch, as long as the bonnet is closed properly it will stay closed however if it is not closed properly the secondary catch can fail to engage if not lubricated, Renault have not deny responsibility, rather they advised dealers / owners to check the secondary catch and lubricte it as required.
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I agree cheddar
Its about time that watchdog programme came of its high tower
The problem is simply lack of proper routine maintainance
and its not confined to renaults
Ive bought plenty of cars over the years with a seized secondary catch
Any half wit technician will normally oil this with his can its elementary
If these cars arent being given basic serviceing then they wont get oiled
We have all met people that dont even know how to lift a bonnet never mind kick tyres once a week whether they need it or not
Its these type of people that watchdog and vosa should be targeting
One final thought how many times do you see cars riding round on the secondary catch,i see lots,
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>>... as I said before the problem is with the secondary catch,as long as the bonnet is closed properly it will stay closed.
The sole mechanic on the program said the main catch was not very good .
He had previously suggested that the secondary catch did not have a big enough hook on it.
>>however if it is not closed properly the secondary catch can fail to engage if not lubricated,
IMO the bonnet is being closed correctly.
Renault have not deny responsibility,
Of course not ,they are trying to save a possible up to £25M recall.
rather they advised dealers / owners to check the secondary catch and lubricte it as required.
Eventually.
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in all my motoring life...now approaching 27 years...i have never lubrictated a bonnet catch....i'd be willing to do so if it's a problem, but have never known it to be.... so haven't done so
i have a 39 year old car in my garage....that i've owned for the last 17 years......and i've never lubricated that one...
(and believe me i can be pedantic).........now fair enough that particular car has a bonnet that hinges at the front, but it's never stayed open unnecessarily.......(except the time i'd left my sunglasses on the side, but that's another story)
the Renault problem is the primary catch becomes defective due to corrosion..and the secondary catch doesn't work due to seizure......
hmmm..... their problem methinks........even on older cars
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The sole mechanic on the program said the main catch was not very good .
Actually the mechanic only looked at the secondary catch. He did not look at the priamry catch until he was told that it might corrode. Then he said "if they had plated it properly in the first place then it wouldn't corrode" - which is a ridiculous comment since I assume that he looked at a sample quantity of 1.
>>IMO the bonnet is being closed correctly.
Oh well, that's that issue sorted then. Do you understand that the risk is that the secondary catch may not catch the bonnet if the primary catch were to fail or the bonnet were not closed properly ? Seemingly no fault exists with the primary catch unless it is corroded sufficiently that the hole has enlarged and it will no longer grip the bonnet pin - and that was unsubstantiated. *All* bonnet catches will wear and eventually corrode and I would have no idea what or how often a garage lubricated any bonnet catch on any car.
From what I could see the area of disagreement seemed to be whether or not the secondary catch was big enough to catch the bonnet if it flew open or whether it was not maintained and this failed to spring into place. The idea that there was a fault which coudl cause the bonnet to fly open seemd to be only mentioned once and then as an unsubstabtiated side comment.
>> Renault have not deny responsibility, Of course not ,they are trying to save a possible up to £25M recall.
No they're not. That would get passed to their product liability insurers. Of far greater risk would be a class action if it could be shown that they knew of a significant issue and failed to act - ask the tobacco companies.
On the one hand Watchdog emphasise that Renault are desperately trying to avoid paying out £25m and then in their next breath they emphasise how such an amount of money is as nothing to such a huge company. They need to make their minds up.
It seems to be that the fault is wihin the service details for the vehicle rather than the vehicle itself, not that I know much about the subject.
I do know a bit about Watchdog though - they are about as relevant to true journalism and consumer protection as Top Gear is to normal man's motoring. Its entertainment and not to be taken too seriously.
Their interviewing techniques are laughable and manipulative, their reporting of "facts" is inconsistent, subjective and incomplete and their filming/staging is a laugh - like the reporter really sits in a coffee shop with a pencil in his mouth pouring over papers,
Now I don;t know what the true situation is, I've only seen the one program tonight. But first I wouldn't take Watchdog's word for what day of the week it was, the story was confused, conflicting and dodgy, and the space they gave Renault was laughable - which is why so many companies refuse to appear. They know that WD is out to make them look bad/foolish for good television, not to get to tthe truth.
And as for Mr. promising-one-of-the-most-senior-UK-executives, publicity, I-only-resigned-out-of-disgust-and-care-for-british-drivers-man - my backside was he altruistic. I'd guess that there is rather more to that particularly parting of the ways than Watchdog reported.
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Who was it signed by HJ, UK MD Roland Bouchara perhaps? Or maybe he was too busy consulting their lawyers reckon I would if I were in Renault's position.
Nevertheless if we get a letter i reckon we will take out Clio II in to be inspected, the dealers are polite and helpful despite selling me the wrong, or rather theold type of, oil filter last week and wanting an extortionate amount for a door rubber, over £100 where as Ford want under £20 for the equivalent part, otherwise Renault consumable parts are very competitive, filters etc less than Halfords.
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Question is what proportion of other similar aged vehicles have bonnets that fly up like the clios? If it is similar then you can say renault aren' t at fault. If there are a much greater proportion then renault have a faulty design as bonnet catch maintenance isn't mentioned in either the owner's manual or the service schedules. If it were in either then you can put more blame on the customer for not attending to their car properly.
A bonnet should not be tricky to close properly and safely. If it is, it isn't designed properly in the first place. You don't have safety belts that are tricky to put on and require maintenance to work, you don't have door catch mechanisms which make the door hard to shut properly and risk them flying open.
Rusting around the primary catch would be picked up on an mot surely?
Didn't the megane have problems with the bonnet catch so that if it wasn't greased the bonnet would seize shut?
teabelly
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>>Rusting around the primary catch would be picked up on an mot surely?
Not specifically - have a look at the MOT manual. I don't know the current form, but this would have been one of those items that would allow a tester to enter "In my opinion this vehicle is dangerous because ....." - I suspect this catch all has been lost in the drive to computerisation.
Suggesting that their dodgy bonnet catches should be picked up during MOT testing is one of the many instances of weasel words in the Renault "official" response.
I do tend to agree with teabelly's view that bonnets shouldn't be difficult to shut properly. Bonnet catches shouldn't be difficult to maintain either!
Number_Cruncher
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I do tend to agree with teabelly's view that bonnets shouldn't be difficult to shut properly. Bonnet catches shouldn't be difficult to maintain either!
I agree. For what ever reason the primary bonnet catch is not engauged then the safety catch should do as its name suggests. From the TV shots I have seen the safety catch appears to have a very small hook on it.
IMO it looks vulnerable to not hanging on to the bonnet. It looks as if a small nudge would disengage it.
ALL the vehicles I have experienced need a significant movement when opening the bonnet to unlatch the safety catch.
It seems that a large number of drivers only open the bonnet when forced to top up the washer bottle which surely means even less chances of the bonnet being incorrectly closed.
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I was selling a Mondeo when Watchdog did their ridiculous "Mondeos are unsafe because they swerve to the left" campaign. It caught the public's imagination for a handful of weeks then died away. In the meantime, it made my Mondeo pretty tough to sell. Not that I'd ever noticed it being a death trap, of course.
Watchdog is a bunch of journalists (i.e. professional story-tellers) looking to fill half an hour a week, whatever the cost to truth.
V
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And everytime they showed supposedly the same Mondeo,it had different wheeltrims!!
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There is a short article in today's Telegraph publicising the Renault recall of Clio II's.
All I can say is it is about time a modification was made after so many complaints of faulty design.
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Roger
A fine is a tax for doing wrong. A tax is a fine for doing well.
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Bleeding obvious init. If you do not have this problem on other makes/models why is it a major problem on this car only. I never grease my bonnet locks on my Hyundai or Mazda. Never had such a problem on all the cars I have had over the last 29 years. Bleeeding obvious init. What other things should I make sure I have done before I drive my car. Gearbox bolted down? Engine block tied down Wheels on every corner. Where do you start checking and where do you finish . Get real!
snipquote. Please don't quote the entire message to which you're replying to, and DON'T quote it after typing your reply - which in cyberland is called top posting, and is one of my many pet hates
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 18/04/2008 at 14:21
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Said bhoy wonder The bonnet catches should be fool proof as it is a critical part of the car
Wheels and tyres are fairly crucial too but don't tighten the nuts enough and your wheel falls off. I saw a black cab come in once with two nuts in the hub cap. Few things are proof against fools.
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Few things are proof against fools.
Indeed. On the very few occasions when a car's bonnet hasn't been properly shut, I have noticed it being out of position or moving and shut it. If the main catch isn't working you would have to be half-witted not to notice.
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