I know these are the queries I normally answer myself, but here`s one I don`t know the answer to.
If a non-UK citizen is in the UK they are able to drive on their "foreign" driving licence for a length of time. This length of time depends on the circumstances, but that isn`t my point.
I am a UK citizen.
Can I use my Brazilian, Chilean, Mexican or US driving licences in the same way ?
Bearing in mind that I do have a valid UK licence, albeit that I have no idea where it is and lost it years ago, I do realise I could get another.
If I have to produce, can I produce a non-UK licence in circumstances where a non-UK Citizen can ?
I am not resident in the UK. I doubt its relevant, but I am resident in the Virgin Isles.
It isn`t for dodging tickets, its the question of Rental Cars and Notice to Produce. Rental companies have always accepted on of my foreign licences, but what do they know beyond the rental co. rules.
I suspect that this is a hole because of the [comparative] rarity of the situation.
Pity pugugly hasn`t been around lately, because I suspect that he would know.
DVD ? or perhaps Andrew ?
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Mark this is a lowballer!
As I see it it is a question of residency. You are a UK citizen and you have held a UK licence. You therefore have an allocated Driver Number at DVLA.
If you were to return to the UK (believe me you are best out of it!), you would be entitled to use one of your many licences for 12 months only. However if you decided to become resident within that time you would have to apply for a UK licence - but in your case you have already got one. You would also have to take a test although I believe some countries have a recognised standard and you would simply swop your licence.
If however you were to stay for 9 months, go elsewhere for a couple of weeks and come back your 12 months would start again.
There are some glaring loopholes here which could easily be exploited e.g. who knows at which point you decide to become a resident? Home Office applications????
What would happen if you were stopped for example speeding. You could not be issued a FPT because you cannot produce a UK licence. You would be reported for summons. Have you a suitable address for service of summons? If that cannot be ascertained you would be liable to arrest to enable inquiries to be made or detained/bailed to next available court.
Anyway I've had to scratch th grey matter on this one. I'll come back to you.
Andrew
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Mark
When I say YOU I mean 'anyone from abroad wishing to drive in this country'. I would not for one minute think that YOU would speed in this country!!!!
Andrew
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Unless you still live at the address your UK licence is issued at your UK licence is invalid.Swansea will issue you with a document you can present to the country you are in to recieve a local licence.I had to change from a Uk to a German licence for this reason.As long as the address that goes with licence is real you can drive anywhere in the EU regardless ie.American service personnel is a good example.If the licence is in another language other than English you must have a official translation. Am I correct in saying that a Brasilian licence lasts only as long as your visa my brasilian licence was issued for only 4 months then I had to re-apply.This was also the case in Saudi and other emirate lands.
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>>Mark this is a lowballer!
That`s why we need you about here !
>As I see it it is a question of residency. You are a UK citizen
First glaring hitch - under UK Law citizenship and residency are not linked and apply quite differently. i,e. even though I am a UK Citizen I do nto pay UK taxes (or anybody else`s for that matter) since I am not resident in the UK.
This is different in the US, for a US National, where tax is by Citizenship not Residency
>and you have held a UK licence. You therefore have an allocated Driver Number at DVLA.
And the licence is valid and current. It is the piece of paper which is long lost.
>You would also have to take a test
No. I wouldn`t since I hold a licence I could get a duplicate of.
>who knows at which point you decide to become a resident? Home Office applications????
My status is such that I can simply decide to live there I only need inform the tax and vat authorities.
>You could not be issued a FPT because you cannot produce a UK licence.
This is exactly the point I need help on.
You would be reported for summons. Have you a suitable address for service of summons?
Yes, and I can prove it. But it isn`t UK.
>I'll come back to you.
I`d appreciate it.
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And if you include your badge number with your authoratative reply.................
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Mark
From the top of my head, Andrew has covered it but will get the Books out and see what the Driving Licence Regs define resident as etc. I well remember an annual exodus from here to Eire for the weekend to come back for year and thereby renew their Licence.
Why not get an International Licence and really complicate things.
DVD
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The issue here is surely not whether you can legally drive with a legally-held overseas driving licence in the UK. That is clearly OK for those licences issued by countries with which the UK has an agreement, or if you have an international driving licence. There can sometimes be a slight problem in the later instance in that, in my case, Syria issues national driving licences for foreigners but not international licences which means my international licence was issued in Beirut where I do not have a national driving licence as required under the terms of the international licences agreement. I digress.
The issue is surely how you answer the questions put to you by an officer booking you for an offence in the UK. He asks for your licence and you give him a valid overseas or international licence. If on listening to your accent, he asks if you have a British driving licence, how do you answer? The reply might in some circumstances create a further offence.
If the case comes to court and it could, as in the US, be taken straight to court that day in some regions if it is thought you might skip the country in the case of something relatively serious, the court will have the power to endorse any UK licence you hold irrespective of whether you are legally driving in the UK with a foreign licence. Again, any answers given in court in reply to questions about your UK licence could be important in deciding whether further offences are being committed.
In practice, I suspect if someone from overseas with a valid overseas licence is reasonable and responsible (i.e. suitably penitent) in dealing with the traffic officers, there is no issue to worry about.
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I once asked an english traffic policeman about this. He said the criteria used was "do you have a UK bank account?"
I don't know why this is, but it opens a whole new can of worms ...
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What does that mean if a foreign national has a UK bank account?
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Mark
As you say you hold a substantive UK Licence then you commit no offence of driving with out a Licence in UK. As you say it is lost, nevertheless its details can be quickly ascertained by Police from your unique Driver Number (first 5 letters of your surname, 6 numbers - year of birth start and finish surrounding month then date followed by Christian name initial).
Under The Motor Vehicles (International Circulation) Order 1975 you can drive on your 'Foreign' Licence as it is a Domestic Licence issued outside UK to a RESIDENT outside UK and can only be relied upon by a person who is temporarily in GB and covers 12 months since date of last entry. (Trip across to France and back to start of 1 year as date of last entry.)
Cannot find definition in the Order for resident so one has to go back to Dictionary - 'one who resides in a particular place, a long term or permanent inhabitant as opposed to a visitor.' As to which would need in depth questioning.
Visitors coming in and taking up residency have a year to convert to a UK Licence. Used to be three months but this was extended.
S25 Police & Criminal Evidence Act 1984 gives Police power to arrest an offender who cannot give a satisfactory address for service of summons. So a visitor can get away with a camera detected speed offence but one subject to a check/stop may be subject to arrest and appearance at Special Court.
Courts do not endorse Licences ofg offenders but notify Sec of State (DVLA) and they endorse the Licence and in cases of visitors Licences are supposed to notify the issuing authority. So if you attracted an endorsement having relied on you foreign licence, then DVLA through your Driver Number could pick up your English Licence and endorse that as a driver number would be allocated for recording purposes.
Your case is unique and bound to perplex someone asking for your Licence and offered a choice of half a dozen, all apparently valid. You seem to have dual nationality and have catered for this in the various Licences you hold.
If anyone is faced with a complex Driving Licence problem may I suggest a letter to DVLA, the ultimate authority and get their ruling which can be produced should the need arise.
Finally, the account on car-jacking is horrific. Is there no Regional Crime Squad targetting these villians?
DVD
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Wow
Does that mean that my girlfriend has an identical driving licence number to her sister?
They are twins and share the same first name initial.
Jonathan
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J.
Almost but not necessarily so as after the Christian name initials various modifiers azre used by DVLA to separate the two of them ie
JOHNA/411024/MA97FR
JOHNA/411024/MA96FT
Bet you cause some confusion when they apply/applied for a Driving Licence all the same.
DVD
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Mark
Just thought you are more than fireproof you crafty old D.
As the result of the birth of your little girl, a Brazilian, then you cannot be extradited to U.K.
The Ronnie Biggs saga?
DVD
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>Just thought you are more than fireproof you crafty old D.
>As the result of the birth of your little girl, a Brazilian, then you cannot be >extradited to U.K.
I am British, I have the right to live in the UK
I am married to a Chilean, I have the right to live in Chile
I have a Brazilian child, I have the right to live in Brazil
You should see my tax issues !
However, Andy raises a really good point about the address on the licence. I still own the house, but I haven't lived there in 15 years.
Also Andy, my visa will be different to yours because of the Sprogette. It was already different since Chileans don't even need a passport to come here, never mind a visa.
In the end, its all too complex for me to worry about. As long as all these countries keep letting me in and out, I'm happy.
However, I suspect that one day it is my own country which will give me hassle - and probably about this driving licence.
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Mark
Well there you have it from our learned friend DVD and associates!
Its all based around Citizenship and Residence. The regs are based around Residence. You are a UK citizen but not a resident. You hold Driving Licences for other countries which are valid here for 12 months or from when and if you decide to become a resident again.
You have a UK property but presumably are not on the Electoral Register which, for all its shortcomings, is the definitive method of validating an address.
Any car you were driving would presumably be a hire car or a borrowed car which would not be registered to you.
As far as your UK licence goes I am not aware that it is invalidated by an incorrect address although it is an offence to not have the correct address on it.
If the brush with the local Constabulary resulted in arrest then they would wish to satisfy themselves that any address given was suitable for service of summons ie a UK address and that the summons could be served. If there were any doubts it would be bed and breakfast and a meeting with some respectable pillars of society in the morning.
Hope we have answered your query.
Andrew.
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I am in exactly this situation, UK passport holder, non-resident in UK, legal permanent resident of the Philippines, have property in UK, UK license holder (dummy address - a maildrop) and numerous "foreign" licenses. When I visit UK (as rarely as possible since when the end of the world comes in my opinion it will probably look like the M25) always use my foreign license plus foreign credit card to rent a car. On the two occasions when I have committed some offence or other the fine has simply been billed to my card by Hertz or who ever. If the UK system wants to do me do me for anything else, let them come the hell looking for me. The other option I have used is to rent the car using the growlette's foreign passport and license and me as extra driver.
Were I to return to live in UK, apart from seeking psychiatric help, I would maintain a I am a tourist simply by maintenance of my foreign residence permit and taking regular trips out. I would rent my property to myself using the offshore company it is owned by as my landlord.
By the way, the Iranian International license is large and very impressive. One plod who stopped me once examined it with great care, scratched his head and told me it wouldn't be any point booking me (pre-Gatso speeding, 'cos they couldn't read the Farsi address to mail the notice to!)
Like every good Filipino citizen I believe motoring and taxation laws and regulations exist primarily for the purpose of challenging the ingenuity to invent new ways around them!
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Thank you.
Last question then;
In practice, if you were faced with a Brit, with a Brazilian Licence and a Brazilian Address (one producable and the other proveable) would you issue a licence ticket or a notice to produce, or would you ignore this and simply deal with the offence (speeding/parking/nothing at all).
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Mark
I would accept your Licence as valid.
As to dealing with your offence I would say, being one of the old school, it would very much depend on circumstances eg. nature of offence and severity, Joe Public involved or not, date of returning to Brazil, availabilty of your collar, time of day and week, court available or standby Magistrate. Probably use my discretion and give an Official Warning duly recorded in the old OPB and send you on you way. You would have promised to behave in the future, been suitably impressed as to how dealt with and told all you friends that british Plods are wonderful. (Bit of PR) . However these sentiments are from an era when perfomance indicators etc were unheard and holy horrors Plod had an odd pint on duty in the back room of pubs as he talked to Landlord to find what was going on, so it may well be different today.
Please keep away from Growlers territory with your problem DL as you would be up against wall with something lethal in your ribs whilst your wallet was unloaded and no paperwork to boot.
Over to you Andrew. 10/10
DVD.
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