I'd also allow for a drop in fuel economy when running on LPG, of a few%, not going to make a huge difference to the payback though I suppose.
From posts I've read on various web forums things can get very tricky if the car develops a fault - LPG mechanic blames 'normal' fuel system & vice versa. Bit like trying to get a dual fuel cooker fixed ;-).
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You just have to remember a simple rule of Government taxation.
The predominant forms of fuel, regardless of how environmentally friendly they are, will always be taxed at very significant levels. The government simply can not afford to throw away its third largest source of income. As soon as the income stream starts to dip on Diesel and Petrol tax will rise on whatever is being used in its place.
So IF LPG takes off (and I doubt it will in the UK) it *will* get hammered tax wise.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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(and I doubt it will in the UK) it *will* get hammered tax wise.
Which is exactly why people should adopt it.... not too many though :)
My 1970 Alfa Romeo Berlina was fitted with a LPG system by it's supplying dealer in Milan (an official AR accessory no less). I run it on the LPG system quite often I find it very good. There is little difference in real world performance and the milage is ok as well because the car is not particularly frugal to begin with... something to do with twin Dellortos :D
JaB
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Certainly ask about official conversions-or at least manufacturer approved.From what I have seen,many tank installations and the plumbing are not very well done and,in some cases,downright dangerous.Ask to see some examples of their work and,if you see worm-type hose clips and Scotchloks,walk away.
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I'm not sure I would spend that money to save £600pa. If I was doing 20,000 miles a year and likely to save almost 100% of the cost within 18 months, then I would think about it, but not for a smaller saving than that.
Mind you, I run a Forester and the boot space is not huge, so the though of missing the spare wheel also puts me off. The Legacy has a larger boot, so is less worrying.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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As it´s a 4x4 could he not mount the spare on the tailgate, Freelander-style? Or is that not an option?
Just a thought.
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Oops. Thought it was a Forester too - it´s an Outback.
::reminds self to read the post properly::
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If you are worried about co2 emissions, then ask how much co2 is pumped into the atmosphere making the LPG conversion equipment before you even get it.
Going "green" isn't a valid argument for these things imho.
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The figure for percentage saving quoted above is very iffy - don't forget you have to write off the cost of the conversion first. They don't seem to have factored in what you will have paid them for the job!
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'If you are worried about co2 emissions, then ask how much co2 is pumped into the atmosphere making the LPG conversion equipment before you even get it.
Going "green" isn't a valid argument for these things imho.'
Not particulary worried or particulary 'green' for that matter.
Just looking at all the options available and if that option is more eco-friendly than another then that is good.
I've no 'green' axe to grind here - I am pretty much anti anything PC.
I'm not trying to validate any argument for going green at all.
jdc
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Even if it was a Forester there is no way to mount a spare on the tailgate.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Using figures in the first post it would take 3 years just to break even after conversion. And that is if you are going to use LPG all the time. Let's say toroidal tank instead of spare will take 45 litres, means you would have to visit LPG station every 230-250 miles? I think the cost is simply unreasonable.
I wonder how come fully licensed LPG installers in Poland or Czech do full 4th generation conversions for around £850 all included and UK garages can barely fit below 2 grand.
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[Nissan dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Interesting comments, and, I must say, echoing the intial thoughts I had.
Another major worry is the actual physical hacking about of my car, potentially dodgy installation, leakages and so on. Then the problems of selling a non-standard car on at some stage
Although the idea is fundamentally sound, the practicalites and costs do look distinctly suspect.
Anyhow, it's interesting to investigate these things ....
jdc
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"I wonder how come fully licensed LPG installers in Poland or Czech do full 4th generation conversions for around £850 all included and UK garages can barely fit below 2 grand."
There are different levels of kit and installation that you can get and rarely is the best level ever used. I?ve been speaking to the "expert" from the pages of our magazine about this but I?m really short on time now and I have to shoot. I?ll repeat what he said tomorrow, suffice to say I see many LPG cars here backfiring, stuttering and kangarooing down the road and some people find that the economy suffers so badly there?s hardly any point to change.
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This chap in Suffolk will do a landrover LPG conversion for £1,000 - complete with certificate of conformity etc. www.glencoyne.co.uk Don't know if he'll do it for other cars. (He's got a seriously nice looking 1982 Range Rover Vogue too.)
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> There are different levels of kit and installation that you can get and rarely is the best level ever used
Yeah, I know there are awful cheapo conversions for cars like 15 year old FSO Polonez' or mkII Astras (Kadett over there), basically cars noone would ever consider keeping, never mind converting to LPG, in UK. Mind you, with a cost of 1400PLN (£250) I bet many owners in UK would think twice before disposing of their old Nissan Sunnys. :)
But end of last year I saw newest sequential systems like BRC Sequent paired with japanese Keihin injectors (this is the same kit used by Vauxhall and G.M factory dual-fuel conversions) with toroidal tank advertised for 4700-5000PLN (roughly £850)installation and initial service included. Same systems are installed for £1950-2250 in UK. That's a whopping difference.
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[Nissan dCi are NOT Renault engines. Grrr...]
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Is there still a restriction on LPG vehicles using the Channel Tunnel?
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indeedy
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Interesting, just had a call from one of the LPG conversion companies I contacted just making sure I had enough info - not pushy, just interested in what I thought.
They stated that duty on LPG is frozen until 2010.
Installation prices fluctuate wildly, they stated, with a fair number of cowboy and backstreet outfits doing cheap and nasty jobs. From my investigations so far I can clearly see this.
Anyway, nice to see a company being so pro-active without pestering....
jdc
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"They stated that duty on LPG is frozen until 2010."
And you believed them, and the Chancellor! Ha!
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"And you believed them...."
Did I say that ?
jdc
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It's been mentioned here before that Subaru offer a dealer-fit LPG conversion for the German market: www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=39265&...e
Maybe they do the same in the UK? Certainly, if you order one here in Ireland, aircon and leather are options fitted by the importer or dealer, which suggests Subaru may be more helpful than most makers in retro-fitting LPG.
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Have a look at this site,recommended by 'Car Mechanics'magazine.
tinyurl.com/epchm
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The Subaru conversion in Germany is marketed as a ´hybrid system´, bizarrely enough.
I ran a Daewoo Nubira estate for a year (don´t laugh) which had a dealer-fitted LPG system. A couple of observations:
1) The expected 10% increase in fuel consumption running on LPG was more like 15-20% IME. Worth factoring in to fuel saving calculations.
2) The doughnut LPG tank in the tailgate spare wheel recess had a pretty small capacity. 300KM was about the maximum I could run it on LPG alone for. Apparently it´s possible to fill the tank 100%, rather than the standard 80-85%, by fiddling with the cut off valve or something, but this removes the expansion allowance.
3) Having the spare tyre filling up boot space was a bit annoying.
4) It used to backfire through the air filter which would blow its cover off - amusing, but a bit scary for cyclists.
5) Long journies across Germany needed a bit of forward planning to find LPG stations on or near the Autobahn network, but the info is on the ´net.
In short it was a joy to fill the thing so cheaply, but other aspects of LPG ownership were a bit of a pain.
The engine eventually let go in a big way - whether this had something to do with its LPG fuel diet I don´t know. My suspicion is that the loony Italian who had it before me hadn´t had it serviced enough, but there you go.
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