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My daughter breeds cats and has a sheltie puppy. They seem to ignore each other but they do have a huge house. Nipping is part of being a collie - it is how they control sheep SFAIK!
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Hugo
What have you done, as you said. It is something I want to do again, but until I finish rebuilding my home, I have been banned from having another dog. Personally I prefer Labradors and have had 3 so far.
I cannot advise with the cats, but relating to biting I would take a tip from the dog's mother in corrective training. If the puppy does something you do not like, then bite it's ear. You will hear a squeal, but they learn pretty quickly what makes you do it. It might seem an unusual thing for you to do, so if you cannot face biting the ear then pinch the ear hard between your fingers using your finger nails.
Do not believe you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. Many years ago I used to exercise my lab with a friend with a collie. Well she managed to injure her back, so for 6 weeks I took her collie (aged about 9) out for exercise using a ball. The collie always used to start running as soon as the ball was thrown. Well I managed to teach him to sit and stay whilst I threw the ball. His owner could not believe I had trained him at such a late age and in a relatively short period.
Do have fun with your puppy, just remember collies grow up so quickly and mature into a dog that never seems to tire of exercise.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Any family with a cat which introduces a dog to the household will advise you that the cat will/should almost certainly make it clear who is boss.
A cat will initially use its claws to warn the newcomer who will eventually get the message.
Given a little time, a week or so, and the pair should prove the best of pals.
It's always happened in my household and those of family and friends.
Re the Sheltie. We've just lost ours at the age of nearly 16 and, as pointed out, they are sheep/guard dogs and nipping sheeps' ankles is part of Mother Nature's programming for their original role in life.
The only time our Shelite (a breed, as you may be aware, developed for the cold and windy barren wastes of the Shetlands) nipped anyone was when he occasionally came unexpectedly across a stranger in the home (such as an electricity meter reader).
His immediate reaction was to nip the stranger's ankle if not stopped in time - just a natural reaction to someone being on his territory.
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According to the young lady on "It's me or the dog", when a dog does something you don't want it to you just take it into another room and shut it in there on it's own until it's calmed down. I think the theory is that it learns that doing what it shouldn't results in it being isolated from the rest of the family and getting no attention whatsoever. Once you've let it back into the room you're in reward it with a titbit. If it's naughty again just repeat the process and keep repeating it until it gets the message. If you give it attention when it's naughty it associates that naughtiness with getting attention ~ which it likes.
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L\'escargot.
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Its a pup. It playbites - its part of growing up.
DO NOT THROW A TOY WHEN THE DOG NIPS YOU.
Think about it. I am playful dog, I nip someone and someone throws me a toy? WOW that's fabulous fun, i shall keeping doing this......
Be very careful you do not reinforce or reward unwanted behaviour.
The dog needs to know two words WRONG and GOOD. They are called clicker words. You associate not good or no rewards with WRONG and nice rewards with GOOD.
You need to know what motivates your dog, with Labs its food, with collies it tends to be fun and games (like a tuggy toy) Try both tho. Cut up cheese into tiny cubes. Get down witht he dog and say GOOD, then feed a cube, GOOD then feed a cube, GOOD then feed a cube ETC ETC,,,,,(or GOOD then tuggy game, GOOD then tuggy game) Get the picture? GOOD = reward.
Then once you have GOOD = Reward in the dogs brain you can then just use the word. AT THE VERY INSTANT (fast timing is crucial) a dog offers you a behavior you want to encourage you say GOOD, and then follow up with a reward (can now be a tickle behind the ear, a pat, a tuggy game or food)
Teaching BAD is much harder. The old school would get a dog and say BAD (then slap dog) BAD (then slap dog) etc. About ten of these is enough to enforce bad. You can always tell a SLAP BAD dog as they cower a bit and cringe when you talk to them harshly. Some dogs can take it some cant - Its fine for a BIG rough Tough dog like a Malinois or German Sheppard but other dogs will be cringy.
So Try BAD (then turn your back on the dog) BAD (turn your back) or BAD then lift dog by scruff of neck and place it two feet away from you. Anything the dog does not find fun can be used as a BAD reward.
Its all about behaviour and consequences. Using Positive click words (rewards) is the way to teach your dog all the things you want. Sit, stay, come here, down, etc etc. Once you and your dog have this raport and communication its JUST FABULOUS fun for both of you.
And yes when the cats have had enough they will swipe some claws hard at the dog and it will leave them alone!
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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What TVM is rightly trying to get across is that a dog is a pack animal and you have to make it clear that you are the pack leader.
Puppies learn this from their mother when growing up and it's also the reason why their "play" is so instructional amongst each other.
Another way (one of many) to get across the fact that you are pack leader is to ensure that, if you go out with the dog, you go out of the door(s) first and the dog (on a lead) follows just behind. It's also one of the reasons for teaching a dog to walk at heel on command.
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In truth pack management is handled very very easily and you dont have to do anything special. The dog is second behind anyone that feeds it. It has to be. No dog can be above anyone its dependent on its food for.
SO Just make sure all the family take turns in feeding the dog. Ok not practical for babies but applicable from toddler upwards. The dog automatically slips down the pecking order behind anyone that controls its food.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Thanks for some very good advice.
I especially like the idea of putting him in a separate room until he calms down.
The idea of everyone feeding it makes sense as well.
SWMBO and I have just read what has been said and we'll definitely be trying some of these ideas.
Thanks again
Hugo
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I take it your not going to try a Tyson on poor thing then?
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Some of these protection type dog trainers are so full of the macho carp. They have to be PAck Leader! Its more about their own standing with fellow man than anything to do with dogs.
On the other hand I know of one trainer who can train real tough in your face scare the living pants out of you rip your arm off protection dogs (west midlands, Northants police and RAF)- Purely by positive reward based training. NOt a hint of pack mentality or bullying or winding up the dog anywhere.
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Again you are correct. It's why I always carry small dog or cat biscuits in a trouser pocket. Both cats and dogs over the years have quickly realised exactly which pocket the biscuits are housed.
I even once trained my best mate's elderly cat to come to the words "Come here" within a few minutes merely through giving it a couple of these biscuits each time he did so. My mate was astonished at how quickly it learned.
By the way all my cats have also come when whistled as well as knowing their name. The same principle has applied i.e. a food reward, but originally arose when a kitten new to the home began joining the dog and I on walks when it was old enough to go outdoors (three months).
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Oh and a collie? when its growed a bit you are going to have to run the legs off monster on a daily basis. Find a thing called a chuck-it ball launcher. It will save your arm....
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TourVanMan TM < Ex RF >
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Oh and a collie? when its growed a bit you are going to have to run the legs off monster on a daily basis. Find a thing called a chuck-it ball launcher. It will save your arm....
I can vouch for all of that, mine was called a Wango. Reminds me of a funny story of my friend who had the collie mentioned earlier. We both lived in the centre of the city of Rochester and had to cross the A2 to get to the main playing field. One day she was on her own and a car suddenly stopped and the driver dashed back to her. He then helped her cross the road - he thought the Wango was a white stick and she was blind. She did not have the heart to let on, as good samaritans are rarely around when you need one.
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Roger
I read frequently, but only post when I have something useful to say.
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Do we just leave them to sort it out amongst themselves or can we do anything to discourage him?
No they'll sort it in time.
Pronblem is that collies are, like Springers, very task driven and it's difficult to eradicate patterns of behaviour once entrenched, you need to sort the nipping business very quickly or you'll end up like us with a crazed hound that dominates everything and fears nothing. Your dog is now establishing his place in the pack and even though he's so young will try to dominate the "bitches", he needs to be put firmly in his place now. We failed to do this with our Springer who will only respond to me and is hostile to everyone but more so to females. His male offspring (he has sired a few pedigree and some mixtures) turned out sound, thanks to early intervention and are superb working dogs in some casesand good pets in others. He is a problem partly because we let him get away with it when he was a pup. Get a book or web input get it soon.
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Our collie sorted out the pecking order between him and the rabbit, rabbit came into family first and let collie pup know it. The cats will do the same.
Nothing to add to the training aspect but, in our experience collies get bored easily and if there is nothing constructive to do, fetch balls, tug of war, eat, walk etc then they will find their own "amusement", damage soft furnishings, chew chair legs etc. By 3 months old ours had learned to open doors(lever type handles) by jumping up and leaning on the door with one paw and operating the lever with the other. They are very intelligent.
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PU I think what you describe could be happening at the moment.
I think he knows where he is with me but its the wife and two daughters I'm worried about.
Our youngest and I took him for a walk this evening and he played her up quite a bit. But as soon as I took the lead he was a different dog.
I'll need to go back to that book SWMBO bought when we got the puppy. Some training sessions may be on the cards as well.
I think the suggestion about all the family members feeding him, and getting him to sit for his food etc is a good one.
The tyson thing is not my cup of tea though :)
H
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Don't let him sit on the chairs/sofa. That is a dominating thing...may look as pretty as a picture....
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>>I think the suggestion about all the family members feeding him, and getting him to sit for his food etc is a good one.>>
My other half very rarely had to feed our Sheltie for one reason or another, unless I was away for a day or two, but it never altered the relationship.
He knew his place...:-)
Ironically, we took our Sheltie over when he was nine years old (my daughter, whose dog it was, moved abroad), but friends and family all remarked not all that long afterwards how much calmer and better behaved he was after being with us.
A proper routine of meals, regular walks and the establishment of who was pack leader quickly sorted him out and he proved a wonderful companion.
It wasn't my daughter's fault other than her (and his) days were different from one day to the next because of her work - the dog didn't have a set routine to follow.
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Thamks for the suggestions everyone.
Well, since the posts yesterday, we have been trying to implement some of the ideas. During dinner last night he started to get a bit of a handful so we put him in the living room to calm down.
It was then he learned to open the door!
We're working on the biting at the moment and it seems to be happening less - can't tell much over 24 hours I know but we just try to ignore him or push him away without looking at or speaking to him when he does it.
The cats still aren't talking to us though.
H
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We've got a rescue collie that we've had for five years now and is still a handful - the key is definitely, as someone else said, showing it that humans come before dogs in your house, and to wear it out with walks and things for it to do.
The biting thing should be quite easily sorted. When puppies are playing and they nip eachother, they yelp. So that's what you need to do too - as loudly and as high pitched as you can. I've seen this work and it doesn't take long for it to sink in.
Definitely go along to some training at this early age, as it will also help with socialisation for the puppy. Try and take some other family members too or you will end up with our situation where the dog behaves for me and my mum but knows she can wind my dad around her little finger (if she had one!)
Little things that show you are boss are: going through the front door first when you are going/returning on walks and making sure that the dog sees you all eat your dinner before he gets his.
We really notice the difference in our dog when she hasn't been given enough to do during the day - she is whiney and wont settle, and barks at absolutely everything, like she's inventing her own games. I got her one of those balls that you put food treats into and she has to work out how to get them out the other day and she loves it. Perhaps the same would work on your dog when it's older, particularly if it's going to be left.
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We've got a rescue collie that we've had for five years now and is still a handful>>
A collie is a highly intelligent (perhaps the highest level in the dog world) working dog and, like all such dogs such as labradors, German Shepherds, spaniels etc, requires plenty of exercise and mental stimulation.
Clearly you are doing that and the main thing is that you both benefit..:-)
Since we lost our Sheltie (might only be have been small, but who was capable of covering remarkable distances and still wanting more) I've walked only a fraction of the 20 miles or so or we used to do a week. More often than not we used one of two local golf courses, so I had a very good idea of the walking distances involved.
I used to see one collie owner who drove a golf ball up and down the fairways; each time the dog would race about 100 yards ahead, turn round and crouch waiting eagerly for the ball to land somewhere near him.
Great exercise...
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We bought the Springer one of these in the hope it would keep it occupied. No interest at all. It has now disappeared we suspect buried deeply. This dog is disturbed I tell you.
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